Let's talk Surah 4:34. When it's okay to strike your wives. (Again)

[dronald]

A poster brought the last one off topic and the thread was subsequently closed. However, I would like more Muslim posters to give a case for when it’s okay to strike their wives, if ever.

How do we interpret this?

4:34Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

What is arrogance and when does it constitute striking?

 

[Cricket2]

It is never OK. Period.

 

[Jack007]

arrogant
ˈarəg(ə)nt/
adjective
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.

discern with thy discretion

 

[chero23]

A man should fight for his relationship not fight with his wife. A man that lays hands on a woman is not a man.

Some woman might try to take advantage of the situation but a man should never hit a woman.

 

[tabycat]

It’s not okey to for either one to be striking the other.

 

[msammiem]

In no way and in no circumstance is it ever acceptable for a man to strike a woman. Anyone who thinks otherwise is terribly mistaken.

 

[Jack007]

In no way and in no circumstance is it ever acceptable for a man to strike a woman. Anyone who thinks otherwise is terribly mistaken.

terribly mistaken…or might belong to another culture where it is acceptable

 

[hasantas]

A poster brought the last one off topic and the thread was subsequently closed. However, I would like more Muslim posters to give a case for when it’s okay to strike their wives, if ever.

How do we interpret this?

…

What is arrogance and when does it constitute striking?

1. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Quran 4:34

Prophet Muhammad implement Quran to His life. Prophet Muhammad never beat His wife. So “beat them (lightly)” is not an unlimited order. I mean a Muslim do have not to beat his wife. Already there are many Hadiths to not beat women.

Verse allow men to beat women in some special conditions but lightly. And in fact that is to protect women. (That verse was revealed after a case after a man who beat his wife. The case come to Prophet Muhammad and Prophet decided to make reprisal. But when that verse revealed the reprisal was revoked). Because striking women was a fact perhaps a custom in that society. How Allah banned alcohol incrementally and rescinded slavery in the same way. Like these to protect women Allah caution men to conduct moderate with women. Unfortunately that issue is a very big problem even in that modern times families.

 

[dronald]

1. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Quran 4:34

Prophet Muhammad implement Quran to His life. Prophet Muhammad never beat His wife. So “beat them (lightly)” is not an unlimited order. I mean a Muslim do have not to beat his wife. Already there are many Hadiths to not beat women.

Verse allow men to beat women in some special conditions but lightly. And in fact that is to protect women. (That verse was revealed after a case after a man who beat his wife. The case come to Prophet Muhammad and Prophet decided to make reprisal. But when that verse revealed the reprisal was revoked). Because striking women was a fact perhaps a custom in that society. How Allah banned alcohol incrementally and rescinded slavery in the same way. Like these to protect women Allah caution men to conduct moderate with women. Unfortunately that issue is a very big problem even in that modern times families.

What are the conditions that one may lead to beat his wife? According to Sahih International it’s “arrogance.” Your translation says “ill conduct”.

I think it’s telling that you inserted (lightly) even though the Arabic does not have that word. I guess the Qur’an can be changed after all.

 

[hasantas]

What are the conditions that one may lead to beat his wife? According to Sahih International it’s “arrogance.” Your translation says “ill conduct”.

I think it’s telling that you inserted (lightly) even though the Arabic does not have that word. I guess the Qur’an can be changed after all.

Quran never changed. There are many different translations and in that translations there are many inserts in paranthesis because Quran verses and statements are in brevity. That inserts are in tranlations but not in original text. I did not insert anything. I just copied.

The word in original text is “nuşuz”. One of meaning is arrogance. The other meaning is abstaining from husband and hate him. The author translated it as ill-conduct.

Violence in family is usual and sometimes it could conclude with a strike. So it is impossible sometimes to prevent. Verse caution men to be moderate because men have a high power more than women.

Most of Islamic clerics interpret that verse to not beat women. Because Prophet never did such thing and there are many Hadiths about that.

That verse allow a choice but after some conditions which is described in verse. Ofcourse it seems unfair to beat a woman. Everybody could disagree with that idea. Remember that even Prophet Job once time sweared to beat His wife. After swearing Prophet Job regret and Allah showed the way how He could act.

1. Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: “The Satan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!”
2. “Strike with thy foot: here is (water) wherein to wash, cool and refreshing, and (water) to drink.”
3. And We gave him (back) his people, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Us, and a thing for commemoration, for all who have Understanding.
4. “And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (thy oath).” Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent is the servant! Ever did he turn (to Us)! Quran 38:41-44

It can be discussed that is it true or not to beat. Some verse was revealed for special conditions. And according to times and societies some customs maybe different. The sects in Islam occured because of that changeable conditions. So it would not be true to beat a woman but as it mentioned in verse it is not absolutely a useless way to educate. But it must be soft otherwise it would not be useful.

 

[dronald]

Quran never changed. There are many different translations and in that translations there are many inserts in paranthesis because Quran verses and statements are in brevity. That inserts are in tranlations but not in original text. I did not insert anything. I just copied.

Does the Arabic say (lightly)? If not, then it’s a bad translation.

The word in original text is “nuşuz”. One of meaning is arrogance. The other meaning is abstaining from husband and hate him. The author translated it as ill-conduct.

Violence in family is usual and sometimes it could conclude with a strike. So it is impossible sometimes to prevent. Verse caution men to be moderate because men have a high power more than women.

Most of Islamic clerics interpret that verse to not beat women. Because Prophet never did such thing and there are many Hadiths about that.

Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa.” Allah’s messenger said to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” Bukhari[8], vol. 7, # 715

Abu Dawud 709- 2141
Iyas Dhubab reported the apostle of Allah as saying: “Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens”, but when Umar came to the apostle of Allah and said: “Women have become emboldened towards their husbands”, he (the prophet), gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the apostle of Allah complaining against their husbands. So the apostle of Allah said, “Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you”.​

Let’s just say there are many to the contrary. At least we have the Qur’an though; Surah 4:34.

That verse allow a choice but after some conditions which is described in verse. Ofcourse it seems unfair to beat a woman. Everybody could disagree with that idea. Remember that even Prophet Job once time sweared to beat His wife. After swearing Prophet Job regret and Allah showed the way how He could act.

1. Commemorate Our Servant Job. Behold he cried to his Lord: “The Satan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!”
2. “Strike with thy foot: here is (water) wherein to wash, cool and refreshing, and (water) to drink.”
3. And We gave him (back) his people, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Us, and a thing for commemoration, for all who have Understanding.
4. “And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (thy oath).” Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent is the servant! Ever did he turn (to Us)! Quran 38:41-44

Quoting further passages in the Qur’an justifying wife beating does nothing for me. It only affirms my belief that the Qur’an is immoral.

It can be discussed that is it true or not to beat. Some verse was revealed for special conditions. And according to times and societies some customs maybe different. The sects in Islam occured because of that changeable conditions. So it would not be true to beat a woman but as it mentioned in verse it is not absolutely a useless way to educate. But it must be soft otherwise it would not be useful.

So parts of the Qur’an are now irrelevant?

 

[dronald]

Sahih Muslim #2127:
…When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?

 

[hasantas]

Sahih Muslim #2127:
…When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?

“which caused me pain,” there is no that part in Hadiths. Prophet Muhammad did the same thing to some other Sahabas who were in misgiving about faith or prophet. When prophet put hand on chess the apprehension go away. And also Prophet touch people(men) to treat them. And in our case Aisha was in misgiving about Messemger of Allah. Prophet treat Aisha in that way as usual he did.

You are well in distorting but it is not fair.

 

[hasantas]

Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa.” Allah’s messenger said to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” Bukhari[8], vol. 7, # 715

Abu Dawud 709- 2141
Iyas Dhubab reported the apostle of Allah as saying: “Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens”, but when Umar came to the apostle of Allah and said: “Women have become emboldened towards their husbands”, he (the prophet), gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the apostle of Allah complaining against their husbands. So the apostle of Allah said, “Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you”.​

Let’s just say there are many to the contrary. At least we have the Qur’an though; Surah 4:34.

Quoting further passages in the Qur’an justifying wife beating does nothing for me. It only affirms my belief that the Qur’an is immoral.

So parts of the Qur’an are now irrelevant?

There is no contrary. Muhammad told His Sahabas not to beat their wife. But some women misused and rebeled against their husbands. These Sahabas(by Ummar) came to prophet and complained about women. That verse permit to beat in some conditions so Prophet allow to beat women. But this time some Sahabas beat women awfully. Again women come to Prophet and complained about husbands. Prophet Muhmmad condemn who beat their women.

Allah created all creatures and also men and women. Allah’s order cannot be immoral. Because Allah’s know the temperaments of human. Men has a power so they could be awful. Women are weak so they could have deception. And the order in verse 4:34 point the mean course, doesn’t it?

 

[hasantas]

So parts of the Qur’an are now irrelevant?

1. O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. Quran 4:19

Why don’t you talk about that verse in the same sura? Why are you on the one way street?

 

[dronald]

“which caused me pain,” there is no that part in Hadiths. Prophet Muhammad did the same thing to some other Sahabas who were in misgiving about faith or prophet. When prophet put hand on chess the apprehension go away. And also Prophet touch people(men) to treat them. And in our case Aisha was in misgiving about Messemger of Allah. Prophet treat Aisha in that way as usual he did.

You are well in distorting but it is not fair.

hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/132-Sahih Muslim Book 04. Prayer/9023-sahih-muslim-book-004-hadith-number-2127.html

“He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?”

See above link, as you have claimed the words are not there.

. These Sahabas(by Ummar) came to prophet and complained about women. That verse permit to beat in some conditions so Prophet allow to beat women.

I know; that’s the issue. Admit it or not, it’s wrong.

Allah created all creatures and also men and women. Allah’s order cannot be immoral. Because Allah’s know the temperaments of human. Men has a power so they could be awful. Women are weak so they could have deception. And the order in verse 4:34 point the mean course, doesn’t it?

I don’t understand your question?

1. O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. Quran 4:19

Why don’t you talk about that verse in the same sura? Why are you on the one way street?

It’s not so great; but someone kept changing the topic in my last thread too, because Surah 4:34 is so indefensible.

 

[hasantas]

hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/132-Sahih

 

[dronald]

You are right. There are that words but the there was not that words in translations which ı looked at. Let’s assume that it hurt some but that does not mean a strike at all. Because striking happened while quarrel but there was not such thing and Prophet and Aisha went on talking. Sometimes a practical joke may hurt too.

It says “strike.” Quarrel or not, Muhammad was mad and struck Aisha causing her pain. He then invoked the name of Allah as an excuse. The text is there.

There are some laws and judgement in Quran which humanbeing cannot understand wholy at once. Sometimes that laws seem unpleasant for human flesh (forexample reprisal, penalty of adulterous etc). But all that laws in fact to keep and correct society. Once Jewishs implemented some laws which they enjoyed but did not implement some which they disliked. We Muslims do not do like that. If Allah orders surely there are many points and usefulness in it.

There could be some conflicts in family and that is usual. When a woman dislike husband then she starts plot some deceptions and says indecent things. İf woman go on that conditions that makes man very angry. And woman says ridiculous words and act only with emotion but not with logic. In that conditions some men may decide to use their power and that happens frequently. Now that verse caution to be moderate and that is the main course.

But you never mind if Quran is words of Allah. You are so far away from fact. Muslims admit many facts in Christianity.

If those are your beliefs then that’s fine. As long as you admit that hitting a woman can be permissible. That’s my entire point, and I’m glad you have admitted that. I just wanted to double check with a Muslim.

The topic is not changing. Our topic is about conduct with women and that verse explain that. And also in verse 4:34 there is no only “beat women”. There are many orders and positions.

And one order is “beat her”. That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

 

[hasantas]

… .

Your problem is with Islam because of Islam does not confirm some doctrines which invented by Church. Consider that Muslims never hate Christians and lump them as Muslim as people of book. So maybe you do not accept Islam but an advice: never allow the hatred to settle in your heart. Some your statements are venomous.

You say God is love! We have a saying “love creatures for sake of thier Creator.”. Also we say Allah is love and having love of Allah(Muhabatullah) is the highest position. And also one of the reason to create universe is the love. Every creature is in a miracle art, beauty because Allah loves His creatures(His arts, otherwise forexample not bad deeds of human but human as art of Himself) And ı see you have some questions about Islam. You must start from that.

 

[dronald]

Your problem is with Islam because of Islam does not confirm some doctrines which invented by Church.

Yes, wife beating included.

Consider that Muslims never hate Christians and lump them as Muslim as people of book. So maybe you do not accept Islam but an advice: never allow the hatred to settle in your heart. Some your statements are venomous.

Evidence of venomous statements please?

Your first sentence confuses me; “Muslims never hate Christians.”? That’s very untrue. You’re the one lumping groups to make a claim like that.

You say God is love! We have a saying “love creatures for sake of thier Creator.”. Also we say Allah is love and having love of Allah(Muhabatullah) is the highest position. And also one of the reason to create universe is the love. Every creature is in a miracle art, beauty because Allah loves His creatures(His arts, otherwise forexample not bad deeds of human but human as art of Himself) And ı see you have some questions about Islam. You must start from that.

Yes, God is love. He hates no person, but loves all. He calls us to love everyone because He loves everyone, even those who disbelieve. But…

Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.​

But I digress; don’t change the subject. The issue at hand is when it’s permissible to beat ones wife as issued in the Qur’an, Surah 4:34.