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DJIGIT

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1- In Isaiah 9:6 and the Old Testament:

Christians claim that since the predicted Prophet’s name (Jesus) will be called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6-7, then therefore, he must be GOD Almighty Himself.

Let us read the Verses: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (EL Gibor), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with justice and righteousness from hence forth even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)”
It is quite unfortunate that in the old Jewish culture, people used to be named “Godly” names. This is quite misleading and deceiving to Christians when they try to define the deity of Jesus.

Psalm 82:6 "I said, ‘You are “gods” (Elohim; plural to El); you are all sons of the Most High.’ " “gods” here in Hebrew is “Elohim”, which is plural of “EL”. It is the same exact thing as “EL” used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since “gods” is a combination of several "EL"s. And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called “god” or “God” in the Bible it wouldn’t make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that any “Son of GOD” in the Bible is a “god” or “God”.
 
Many people in the Jewish old culture were called “God” before Jesus’ existence on earth. The following translations were verified by bible.crosswalk.com and the Jewish Sabbath Temple:Many people in the Jewish old culture were called “God” before Jesus’ existence on earth. The following translations were verified by bible.crosswalk.com and the Jewish Sabbath Temple:

Note: Some of the words have different translations in the bible.crosswalk.com site than in the Jewish Sabbath Temple translation. I trust the Jewish Sabbath Temple translation, because they speak far better and more accurate Hebrew than the Bible Crosswalk site who are Christians and are desperate to prove the trinity dogma even if it means giving inaccurate and wrong/false translations:

Important Note: The “Yahweh” in many Hebrew names is shortened because it apparently makes the name much easier to pronounce since it is used often. It is very similar to our shortened names today such as:

1- Michael shortened for Mike.
2- Samuel shortened for Sam.

1- Jerusalem was called “The LORD our Righteousness”. “In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness (Yahweh tsidkenû).’ (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 33:16)”

2- Ezekiel means “Strong God”. It also means “Yahweh is Strong God”.

3- Elijah. This name is short for EliJehovah or “Eli Yahweh”. Eli means my GOD, and Yahweh is the name and title of GOD Almighty in the Bible. Does “Eli Yahweh” or Elijah mean that the person is Jehovah Himself?

4- Israel means “Challenge God”, “he struggles with God”, or “fight with God”. It also means “Defeat God”.

5- Gabriel also means “Strong God”.

6- Isaiah or Jesaiah, which is short for “Jesa Yahweh” means “Salvation from Yahweh”. It could also mean “Salvation”.

7- Joshua, which is short for “Josh Yahweh” means “Yahweh Saves”.

8- Elli, which is a common name for men before and after Jesus, means “God”. Psalm 82:6 "I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ " “gods” here in Hebrew is “Elohim”, which is plural of “EL”. It is the same exact thing as “EL” used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since “gods” is a combination of several "EL"s. And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called “god” or “God” in the Bible it wouldn’t make him GOD Almighty Himself, the LORD or Jehovah. I also want to point out that ANY “Son of GOD” in the Bible is a “god” or “God” as clearly shown in Psalm 82:6.

Note: The trinitarian who translate the Bible into English play dirty tricks about capitalizing and lowering the “g” in “God” to prove their trinity lie, while they fully know that it is the same word used for ALL!
 
9- Immanuel, Emanuel, Emmanuel, Immanuel, or Imanuel are the SAME NAME and are another name for Jesus, means “With us is God”. This name is also common for men before and after Jesus.

10- Elihu means “My God is He”.

11- Gedaliah means “Jehovah is Great”. Again, Gedaliah is short for “Gedal Yahweh”. Is the person who was called “Jehovah is Great” GOD Almighty Himself? People before and after Jesus are given this name. See 2 Kings 25:22-24.

12- Eliadah or Eliada means “God knows”.

13- Eliab means “my God is Father”.

14- Elzaphan means “God is Protector”

15- Eliakim means “God raises”.

16- Elisha means “God is Salvation”.

17- Eleazar means “God has helped”

18- Judah or Yahawdah means “Praised”. It generally means “Praised by Yahweh”.

19- Hashabiah means “Jehovah has considered”.

20- Mattithiah means “Gift of Jehovah”.

21- Michael (nick name “Mike”) means “who is like God”. Yet, non is like Him, the Almighty. See Exodus 8:10.

22- Jesus, Yahshua, Yeshua or Yashua are the SAME NAME, and mean “Salvation”. It doesn’t mean “God Saves” as Christians claim. Jesus (Yeshua) means in Hebrew “salvation” and not “God saves”. Yud Shin Waw Ain - this name doesn’t include the word “God”.

Joshua (Yehoshya) - Yod Hey - Waw Shin Ain
Isaya (Yeshayah) - Yod Shin Ain - Yod Hey .

These two names are combination of Yod, Shin, Ain - salvation and Yod, Hey - Yahwe.

Yosh Hey (Yah) is common short from Yahwe, for example Alleluia comes from “Halelu Yah” - “Glorify Yahwe”.
 
In the above examples, we clearly see that the old Jewish culture gave “Godly” titles to people who are not in anyway divine. In the above examples, we clearly see that the old Jewish culture gave “Godly” titles to people who are not in anyway divine.

Notice that in Isaiah 9:6, it clearly says “and his NAME shall be…” This clearly proves that “Mighty God” is just a name given to the coming Prophet (Jesus). Since this is just a name, this also clearly proves other people in the old Jewish culture were named that name before, even if they’re not mentioned in the current Bible.

Have Isaiah 9:6 said “and he will be God Almighty Himself” or “and he will be the God Almighty” then this would be different, because we now would be talking about not just a NAME given to someone, but rather GOD Almighty Himself.

Important Note: There is not a single Verse in the New Testament where Jesus was called directly or named directly “Mighty God” or “God”. Notice in Isaiah 9:6 it clearly says “and his name shall be…” Jesus was called “Son of GOD” as many others in the Bible were called Sons of GOD, but he never even once was addressed as “Mighty God” or “God”, nor he ever claimed to be “Mighty God” or “God”.

The Jews believe that Isaiah 9:6 was referring to somebody else, other than Jesus. The Book of Isaiah which obviously contains Isaiah 9:6 came 700 before the birth of Jesus. The Jews had absolutely no problem calling somebody who came 700 years before Jesus “El Gibor (Mighty God)”. That person’s name is Hezekiah. The Jews believe that **Isaiah 9:6 ** is referring to Hezekiah and not Jesus, and they did indeed address Hezekiah as “Mighty God”. This proves that many people before Jesus were named even at birth “El Gibor (Mighty God)”, just like people were also named “Ezekiel (Strong God)”, “Elli (God)”, “Gabriel (Strong God)”, etc…
 
2- The “Mighty God” translation:2- The “Mighty God” translation:

“Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 is “El Gibor”. This is not exactly “Mighty God”, but close. “Strong” is more correct (but it is different from strong of “hazak”). Here both El and Gibor are nouns - this is short full spell is “El Hu Gibor”.

Anyway “El Gibor” and “Gabriel” are same thing. They both mean “Strong God”. “Gabriel” is an angel’s name in the Bible.

The word “Gibor” in Isaiah 9:6 and the word “Gibor” of Gabriel have exactly the same root, and they are both the same word. The word itself can also be translated as “Man of God”.

By the way, “EL” can also mean “Judge”. So “El Gibor” can also be translated as “Strong Judge”.

The “Mighty God” translation is just one possibility. This type of differences in translation exists throughout the Hebrew language, where words’ meaning change depending on the sentence. That is why there is no one single solid Bible Translation!. Theologians have difficulties agreeing on some key issues in translations. That’s why we see so many different Bibles with so many different translations.

But anyhow, even if “Mighty God” was the right translation, it is still just a NAME given to Jesus and nothing more. It doesn’t in anyway prove that he is the creator of the Universe. Many people as shown above were given the misleading “Godly” titles before Jesus.
 
3- Did Jesus ever claim to be “Mighty God” or “God”?From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat’s work; may God Almighty always be pleased with him:

Let us look at John 10:30 “I (Jesus) and the Father are One.” This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse **John 10:23 ** we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: “…Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.”

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either’s hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God’s equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL…," in John 10:29 **completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus. **

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 “That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE”.
In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN **is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods. **

Of the verse in question, “I and the Father are One” in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: “The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '” (John 10:33).

Jesus replies to this accusation saying: “Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, “Thou blasphemeth,” because I said I am the son of God?’” (John 10:34-36).

Let us look at Acts 2:22 “O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you…” **Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God. **
 
From www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: In John 10:30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one [hen].” Doesn’t this show that they are one in essence?

This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John’s Jesus meant by the word hen (“one”) becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles: “That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]” (John 17:22), which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated: “I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]” (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence
 
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Ghosty:
What’s your point/thesis?
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What’s the point of everybody’s thread?
Isn’t it to think and analyse it logically and find the truth!!!???
 
Riiiiiiiight…

What I want to know is what is the truth you’re putting forth here? You said a lot of different things, some of which have no obvious connection. What is the “truth” you’re trying to present?
 
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Ghosty:
Riiiiiiiight…

What I want to know is what is the truth you’re putting forth here? You said a lot of different things, some of which have no obvious connection. What is the “truth” you’re trying to present?
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Can you quote which ones have no obvious connection? And Why they have no connections?
 
Well, the names thing has no obvious tie-in with your later assertions, as no one was being called God, but were rather being described in relation to God. That much is obvious in the language. No one makes the claim that those names/titles point to Jesus.

As for the Scripture, you totally over look the fact that Jesus literally called Himself Yahweh in the Gospel of John. I’m not talking about “I and the Father are one”, but “before Abraham, I am”. Everyone knew what He was claiming when He said that, because they wanted to kill Him at that point for blasphemy.

Peace and God bless!
 
Christians claim that since the predicted Prophet’s name (Jesus) will be called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6-7, then therefore, he must be GOD Almighty Himself.
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Well, I hate to burst your thesis bubble here, but, no, we Catholics don’t.

We don’t claim anything for Jesus based on anything in the Bible alone. Catholics are not “people of the book” but people of Christ, witnessed to by Scripture and aided by proper interpretation of Scripture, but not “based” on Scripture, and certainly not on Scripture alone.

That is a Fundamentalist position, so if you want to argue that false precise I suggest you post your long dissertation on a Fundamentalist site. You’ll get no arguments from us Catholics against your strawman propositions. Sorry to disappoint you. 😉
 
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Ghosty:
Well, the names thing has no obvious tie-in with your later assertions, as no one was being called God, but were rather being described in relation to God. That much is obvious in the language. No one makes the claim that those names/titles point to Jesus.

As for the Scripture, you totally over look the fact that Jesus literally called Himself Yahweh in the Gospel of John. I’m not talking about “I and the Father are one”, but “before Abraham, I am”. Everyone knew what He was claiming when He said that, because they wanted to kill Him at that point for blasphemy.

Peace and God bless!
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It is claimed that Jesus used the words, “I am”, and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" **Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God? **

How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother’s womb; “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)” **Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. ** In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: “I am what I am.” Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, “I am,” in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as “HO ON.” However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the “I am,” is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. **How many people in that age would have said “I am,” in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !. **

From jewsforjudaism.com/web/faq/faq128.html:

Question: Is the author of the Gospel of John claiming that Jesus is part of a tri-unity god when he has Jesus say, “before Abraham came into being, I am” (John 8:58)?

Answer: John 8:56-58 states: “‘Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad.’ The Jews therefore said to him: ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them: ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.’”

Trinitarians argue that the Greek words ego eimi (“I am”), allegedly spoken by Jesus (John 8:58), indicate that Jesus is God (see also John 8:24, 28). They arrive at their contention by connecting the phrase “I am” with the words spoken by God in Exodus 3:14 and often translated: “I AM THAT I AM . . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I AM has sent me to you.” However, the literal and proper translation of this verse is: I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE. . . . Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: I WILL BE has sent me to you."
 
Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John’s Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus’ alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi (“I am”), used by John’s Jesus, is not the same as ho on (“The Being, The One Who Is”), which is used in the Septuagint’s rendering of Exodus 3:14: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you.” Even though **ho on ** appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: “John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne” (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.

In verse 8, John writes: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty’” (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to “the Lord God, the Almighty,” not Jesus, who, as the “Lamb” referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. **That they are two separate entities is seen from ** Revelation 5:13: “To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” In addition, **ho on ** is applied to the “Lord God, the Almighty,” not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: “And I heard the altar saying: ‘Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.’” These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John’s Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: “Before Abraham came into being, I am.” The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John’s statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.
 
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DJIGIT:
Since the author of the Gospel of John utilized the Greek Septuagint translation of the Bible in his writings, it cannot be assumed that John’s Jesus is referring to the words in Exodus 3:14. Although Jesus actually spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek, John recorded Jesus’ alleged words in Greek. Ego eimi (“I am”), used by John’s Jesus, is not the same as ho on (“The Being, The One Who Is”), which is used in the Septuagint’s rendering of Exodus 3:14: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and He said, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: THE BEING has sent me to you.” Even though **ho on ** appears in the Gospel of John, it is never used as a title or name or exclusively as a reference to Jesus. In the Book of Revelation, also credited to John by Christian commentators, ho on appears five times (Revelation 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:17; 16:5). Significantly, in each instance, it is used as a title or designation applied to God, not Jesus. Thus: “John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come; and from the seven spirits who are before His throne” (Revelation 1:4). That this verse refers to God and not Jesus is seen from the following verse, which continues the greeting by now including Jesus as one of those sending greetings. Hence, John says, in verses 4 and 5, that greetings are sent by God, the seven spirits, and Jesus.

In verse 8, John writes: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is [ho on] and who was and who is to come, the Almighty’” (Revelation 1:8). This verse also speaks of God, not Jesus. In Revelation 4:8, ho on is applied to “the Lord God, the Almighty,” not Jesus, who, as the “Lamb” referred to in Revelation 5:6-7, comes to God, who is sitting on His throne. **That they are two separate entities is seen from ** Revelation 5:13: “To the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” In addition, **ho on ** is applied to the “Lord God, the Almighty,” not Jesus, in Revelation 11:17 and Revelation 16:5. That ho on in Revelation 16:5 refers to God and not Jesus can be seen from verse 7, which, referring to the subject of verses 5 and 6, states: “And I heard the altar saying: ‘Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.’” These are further indications that ho on and ego eimi are not used as synonymous terms by John. In John 8:56-58, John is expounding his belief that Jesus had a prehuman existence as an angelic being in heaven. John’s Jesus is proclaiming here that this prehuman existence began before Abraham was born: “Before Abraham came into being, I am.” The fact of the matter is that the text does not at all indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. In no honest way can John’s statement be taken to identify Jesus as God.
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:yawn: Anybody ready for some turkey or ham now?
 
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Della:
Well, I hate to burst your thesis bubble here, but, no, we Catholics don’t.

We don’t claim anything for Jesus based on anything in the Bible alone. Catholics are not “people of the book” but people of Christ, witnessed to by Scripture and aided by proper interpretation of Scripture, but not “based” on Scripture, and certainly not on Scripture alone.

That is a Fundamentalist position, so if you want to argue that false precise I suggest you post your long dissertation on a Fundamentalist site. You’ll get no arguments from us Catholics against your strawman propositions. Sorry to disappoint you. 😉
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I’m not disappointed at all, on the contrary, glad 🙂 Thank you for suggestion, I’ll go there too.

I wonder, if you are not people of the book, then people of oral rumors? 🙂
 
Jermiah 1:5 refers to the foreknowledge of God, not the pre-existence of Jeremiah. Because God knew Jeremiah before God formed him in the womb in no way proves that Jeremiah existed before he was formed in the womb. After all, God knows the end from the beginning. The Mormons love to misuse that verse, too.

What do you do with the first verses of the Gospel of St. John? They very clearly and unequivecally declare the divinity of Jesus.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

The rest of the passage makes it clear that it is Jesus who is the Word.
 
I met someone from your religion the other day I do believe, I had about a 30minute talk with him. The whole time his greatest argument was that the Bible is full of lies and mistruths with only a few truths which only a few people can find. FILTH AND ROT, I finally said goodbye because neither could he defend his assertion nor could anything I told him be anything other than a lie. I figured that Jesus himself could not draw everyone to the truth so how can I a little nothing get anywhere with someone like this. So now I just pray for him.
I would suggest that all who are replying to this thread do the same. Don't waste your time, just pray for him and if we all do this then who knows maybe another St. Augustine will appear.
 
I’m not even sure what religion he is, but he’s not making very solid claims. I can tell by the way he’s piecing things together, though, that nothing could be said here to get him thinking straight. I agree that this thread is a waste of time :yawn:

That being said, “the Word was God”.
 
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