Let's Try This Again....Death means sleep

[Tantum_ergo]

I am trying to understand Truth Seeker’s POV but it’s difficult.

IF TS is trying to ‘learn’ something, and is satisfied with his own beliefs. . .then why would he not be ‘upfront’ about his denomination?

He says that if he does give his denomination then people will ‘label him’ for it.

Um. . .just a moment here. First, isn’t that rather uncharitable thinking? You just assume the minute you say, “I’m an X” that people will 'attack you?"

Well, hold on Harry. All of us Catholics have identified ourselves without worrying about being attacked. Furthermore, a whole lot of Protestants have identified themselves and. . .strangely enough. . .they haven’t been ‘attacked’ for being who they are either. Why then would only TS be ‘attacked’ for identifying himself?

Furthermore, since TS knows who everybody else is, while keeping his own identity ‘secret’, it looks as though TS is not worried that HE is going to go around judging and possibly ‘attacking’ people whom HE knows the denomination thereof. . .what makes YOU, TS, so ‘superior’ to everybody else? If you can act ‘appropriately’, why assume ‘everybody else’ won’t?

Now this is not an attack here (want to be sure I let you know). . .The thing is, every time that you ‘witness’ for Christ, whether you’re on CA or even in your own cozy little church, you run a ‘risk’ that somebody is going to take issue with something you say. Sometimes (none of us are perfect) we actually do make mistakes, and if people note it, they might not be ‘attacking’ us but merely giving us a chance to correct our error. To simply assume that remarks made are automatically made as ‘attacks’ based on discrimination and prejudgment of one’s religious faith, and not to be able to take a neutral view that people are not necessarily ‘out to get you’ might be the mark that you aren’t quite ready for the type of interaction on any forum. Which is fine. We’re not all meant to ‘witness’ on forums. If we **do witness, though, **we need to be able to understand that ‘disagreement’ does not equal ‘personal attack’ if we are going to engage in ‘equal’ participation.

Right now, keeping your denomination to yourself, TS, makes you appear to be in judgment against the rest of us. . .with no cause. . .and that itself is hardly the hallmark of Christian thought and belief.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Lets try this again…

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

The rich man was in hell and Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham while the rich mans descendants were still alive, so death is not sleep in the way we know it.

End of discussion

 

[twopekinguys]

His continued refusal to disclose his religous affiliation just reinforces his anti-Catholic bias.

No matter what is presented to him, he won’t accept it because it came from a Catholic, or a Catholic source.

Trying to come to a forum, and to set the rules for what he will discuss, and with whom, and how.

His behavior is laughable at best, and he doesn’t deserve the attention he has obviously been begging for.

Creditiblity=none.

 

[Joshua27]

Lets try this again…

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

The rich man was in hell and Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham while the rich mans descendants were still alive, so death is not sleep in the way we know it.

End of discussion

First let me say, “look at my label. It says ‘faithful’.” I have no denomination. I grew up through the Catholic education system since 3rd grade on through high school (and as all Catholics know Religion class and Mass are requirements). I was offered the opportunity to begin studying the life of a Brother. My parents are Baptists (denomination of protestants) who are part of their church’s ministry, which I was required to attend when I was younger. My grandparents are Apostolic (a denomination of Catholic); they were actually a major part of the primary church in Philadelphia, where I was required to attend. I’ve taken major religious studies in College without falling too far into it as a Major. I have close athiest friends who’ve educated me on their points of view, with a few family members that are mustlim (who’ve also educated me in their views). So here I am…and in my short time on this forum I’ve been called Catholic (by non-Cs), Gnostic, Protestant, and just recently Taliban (and I imagine this is just the beginning). But regardless, I am always Faithful.

So I’ll take over as a lightning rod for a while.

---

Now…for the best context of this situation, it is best to start at the beginning of Luke chapter 15…even before verses 19-31 of chapter 16.

[Luke 15:1] Then drew nearer unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
[Luke 15:2] And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying “this man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
[Luke 15:3] And He spake this parable unto them, saying “[Luke 15:4-10] Statement on Sinners being like Lost Sheep”

[Luke 15:11] And He said, “[Luke 15:12-32 Parable: The Prodical Son]
A certain man had two sons…”

[Luke 16:1] And He said also unto his disciples, “[Luke 16:1-13 Parable: The Two Masters]
There was a certain rich man…”

[Luke 16:14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

[Luke 16:15] And he said unto them [Pharisees], “[Luke 16:15-18] Statement on Those who justifying themselves of high esteem among men are abominable to God”.

[Luke 16:19] “There was a certain rich man…”

---

Messiah first gave a statement and then parables to explain:

Statement 1 (Lost Sheep); 2 Parables followed
Statement 2 (High Esteem); …

The first two parables are accepted as parables to explain his first statement, so why is the third - which starts the same exact way as the first two - considered actual truth? Why would we assume Messiah suddenly changed his literary technique (the manner by which he was teaching) upon an interruption by the Pharisees?

Research “Bezae Caulabrigiensis” and the “Koridethian-Caesarean” text - which are two of the oldest Greek manuscripts of the bible. Luke 19:16 begins with the words eipen de kai heteran parabolen (And He said also another parable); words deleted in later greek translations.

 

[Joshua27]

When people take scripture out of context or only go with a verse here or there; of course it can be made to “Look Like” however you want it to look. This is something a person must be very careful of, as it’s the same as trying to “Twist” Scripture to say something it’s not. This by no means is how the Bible was written.

But Satan seems to misguide some people by getting them to Falsely believe that this is ok…read the Bible the way that it should be read, not by picking out a few Scriptures that seem to match your train of thought.

Amen to that…and I am willing to take any verse and explain it in context for the forum, as I cite full passages in which verses are included.

Let’s see which verses are out of context and which are spot on as it concerns death and sleep.

 

[Rence]

You can try to change the topic and say I don’t understand what you believe, but the truth is you and your catholic friends believe in a place called hell. But what neither of you can explain on your own WHILE USING SCRIPTURE is why did Jonah call the belly of the fish HELL.

You try to prove your point by using scritpures that you obviously have no clue as to what they are saying, because every time you use them, you make it seem like the Bible contradicts itself. I’m not catholic so don’t put me in the same boat as you. Yes I have stepped out and searched for truth but I was always taught to read my Bible.

So, if I read my Bible and I search for truth in catholicism and God says don’t follow the traditions of men and you all hold traditions over the Bible. Then catholicism is not for me unless proven other wise (you all are failing horribly). And with the years of studying that I have done. All things point away from catholicism. I just wish you could see that.

So in this case, GUESS WHAT, you are wrong or you are saying that Christ is wrong. You pick, but know that your decision is completely up to you. I’m just posting scripture.

Also know that you will not be saved by a NAME. I have catholic friends, and I know what you believe and if thats not what you believe then someone is misrepresenting your organization. That’s one reason I speak for myself and not for others in my denomination.

Please explain what Jonah meant or did I take that out of context as well? If so, like in another thread I posted, why must something be out of context when you can’t explain it?

I already explained it to you in post #104

here it is YET AGAIN:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth Seeker123
What about the belly of the fish that Jonah called hell? That’s not private interpretation, if so please explain what it means.

**Here is the rest of those verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible:

Jonas 2:1-3
1 Now the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonas: and Jonas was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. 2 And Jonas prayed to the Lord his God out of the belly of the fish. 3 And he said: I cried out of my affliction to the Lord, and he heard me: I cried out of the belly of hell, and thou hast heard my voice.

It means being in the belly of the fish is as painful and horrible as being in the belly of hell for Jonas. It does not mean that the belly of the fish is hell.

Whether or not you believe that the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonas or whether you believe it was the symbolism of something greatly distressing to Jonas, the point of it is, the Lord prepared an affliction for Jonas, that Jonas cried out in pain, a pain that was likened to hell for him.

As in, “studying all night for that test was hell!” does not mean, I was studying all night in hell. It means that it was horribly uncomfortable and distressing to be cramming all night for a test. Does that make sense to you?

You have to remember that these were written centuries ago. Their speech and writing was different than ours. That’s why sometimes you need help interpreting them by scholars who studied not only the different languages that these texts were written in, but they also studied biblical literature. **

 

[Pug]

Concerning Jonah in the fish

Isn’t scripture a bit fun, sometimes? I’m not sure I agree that the belly of the fish was a disaster for Jonah. I think it can be viewed as his succor. Perhaps the fish saved him from drowning in the watery depths, since the LORD “provided/appointed/sent a large fish” in verse 1:17, and it is while he is in the fish that Jonah says, I called to the LORD, … and he answered me. So being in the big fish could be the answer to his prayers, prayers that he made as he sunk off that ship, his head wrapped in seaweed. (what a ridiculous thought, sort of as silly as him fuming beneath the castor bean plant ). And then once he is in the fish, he recalls the scenario by saying “I called to the LORD…”

I suppose that would make the deeps of the waters the belly of Sheol. It would be that he was drowning and hence dying that he calls it thus. For it says
I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the Pit, O LORD my God. As my life was ebbing away (my soul was fainting), I remembered the LORD, …
He prayed (remembered the LORD) as he was drowning, perhaps.

I suppose part of the reason I see it this way is that this portion of Jonah reads just like a psalm, like one David would say after he won some battle or something. If you can’t imagine what sort of psalm I could mean, try psalm number 18, the beginning part.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

I already explained it to you in post #104

here it is YET AGAIN:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth Seeker123
What about the belly of the fish that Jonah called hell? That’s not private interpretation, if so please explain what it means.

**Here is the rest of those verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible:

Jonas 2:1-3
1 Now the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonas: and Jonas was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. 2 And Jonas prayed to the Lord his God out of the belly of the fish. 3 And he said: I cried out of my affliction to the Lord, and he heard me: I cried out of the belly of hell, and thou hast heard my voice.

It means being in the belly of the fish is as painful and horrible as being in the belly of hell for Jonas. It does not mean that the belly of the fish is hell.

Whether or not you believe that the Lord prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonas or whether you believe it was the symbolism of something greatly distressing to Jonas, the point of it is, the Lord prepared an affliction for Jonas, that Jonas cried out in pain, a pain that was likened to hell for him.

As in, “studying all night for that test was hell!” does not mean, I was studying all night in hell. It means that it was horribly uncomfortable and distressing to be cramming all night for a test. Does that make sense to you?

You have to remember that these were written centuries ago. Their speech and writing was different than ours. That’s why sometimes you need help interpreting them by scholars who studied not only the different languages that these texts were written in, but they also studied biblical literature. **

I get what you are saying. But read this carefully.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

How can he be buried but in Heaven or hell at the same time?

Acts 2:31,32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

According to your logic, Christ was in a burning place, unless hell means grave.

It means the belly of the fish is hell if hell means grave. Jonah thought that, that would be his grave/resting place.

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Let’s look at the above scripture. The only way to depart from hell, and according to your beliefs, hell is a PERMANENT place punishment. You can’t leave, unless hell means grave.

Now, stay with me on this one. How does a person go directly to Heaven or hell?

Also, psalms 15:20 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Now why would God be in a burning place of punishment? Deaths means sleep and hell means grave.

 

[Joshua27]

…Sheol…

Interestingly enough, there is a growing concensus among translators that they were incorrect in interpolating “sheol” as “hell”. In fact the hebrew work “sheol” doesn’t mean Hell at all.

A Dictionary of the Bible (1914), edited by William Smith, sates

“Hell . . . is the word generally and unfortunately used by our translators to render the Hebrew Sheol. It would perhaps have been better to retain the Hebrew word Sheol, or else render it always by ‘the grave’ or ‘the pit’. . . . In the N[ew] T[estament], the word Hades, like Sheol, sometimes means merely** ‘the grave’ **. . . It is in this sense that the creeds say of our Lord ‘He went down into hell,’ meaning the state of the dead in general.”

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says:

“Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the **abode of the dead **and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.” Better versions simply transliterate the word into English as “Sheol.”

The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276):

“Sheol was located somewhere ‘under’ the earth. . . . **The state of the dead **was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles-all slept together without awareness of one another.”

Regarding the word “Sheol,” Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida noted in A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978, p. 37.:

“The word occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinctions there, so ‘hell’ (KJV) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with ‘heaven’ as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, ‘the grave’ in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together. . . . The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [in Jonah 2:2] in view of Jonah’s imprisonment in the interior of the fish.”

----Some examples of placements of “Sheol” and their translations across Bible versions

**[Scripture] KJV| Douay| NWT| NIV| MLB/NBV| Fenton| NLT| Brenton **
[Genesis 37:35] grave hell sheol grave grave grave die Hades
[Genesis 42:38] grave hell sheol grave “death’s realm” grave grave Hades
[Genesis 44:29] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Genesis 44:31] grave hell sheol grave grave grave grave grave
[Num 16:30] pit hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Num 16:33] pit hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Deut 32:22] hell hell sheol “realm of death” underworld pit grave hell
[1 Sam 2:6] grave hell sheol grave grave grave grave grave
[2 Sam 22:6] hell hell sheol grave grave grave grave death
[1 Kings 2:6] grave hell sheol grave grave grave die grave
[1 Kings 2:9] grave hell sheol grave grave grave death grave
[Job 7:9] grave hell sheol grave underworld grave die grave

 

[Joshua27]

Placements of “sheol” (either kept or translated) continued:

[Scripture] KJV| Douay| NWT| NIV| MLB/NBV| Fenton| NLT| Brenton
[Job 11:8] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave underworld hell
[Job 14:13] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead* grave
[Job 17:13] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Job 17:16] pit pit sheol death Sheol grave grave Hades
[Job 21:13] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Job 24:19] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave death N/A
[Job 26:6] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave underworld hell
[Psalm 6:5] grave hell sheol grave grave grave grave Hades
[Psalm 9:17] hell hell sheol grave Sheol pit grave Hades
[Psalm 16:10] hell hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave hell
[Psalm 18:5] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave N/A
[Psalm 30:3] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 31:17] grave hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave Hades
[Psalm 49:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 49:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 55:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 86:13] hell hell sheol grave “lower world beyond” grave death hell
[Psalm 88:3] grave hell sheol grave “death’s portals” grave death Hades
[Psalm 89:48] grave hell sheol grave grave grave grave Hades
[Psalm 116:3] hell hell sheol grave grave grave grave hell
[Psalm 139:8] hell hell sheol depths underworld grave dead grave
[Psalm 141:7] gravk hell sheol grave grave nil nil pit
[Prov 1:12] grave hell sheol grave “dead-realm” grave grave Hades
[Prov 5:5] hell hell sheol grave hell grave grave grave
[Prov 7:27] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 9:18] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 15:11] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 15:24] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 23:14] pit hell sheol death Sheol grave death death
[Prov 27:20] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 30:16] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave N/A
[Eccl 9:10] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Cant. 8:6] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Isa 5:14] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave# hell
[Isa 14:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 14:11] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave nil Hades
[Isa 14:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 28:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol pit grave Hades
[Isa 38:10] grave hell sheol death grave grave dead grave
[Isa 38:18] grave hell sheol grave grave grave dead grave
[Isa 57:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol hell dead hell
[Eze 31:15] grave hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:16] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:17] hell hell sheol grave realm of the dead grave grave hell
[Eze 32:21] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 32:27] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave death sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Amos 9:2] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Jonah 2:2] hell hell sheol grave Sheol nil dead hell
[Hab 2:5] hell hell sheol grave grave grave death grave

In each of these examples, the original word used is “sheol”…which again is Hebrew and closest to meaning “grave”:

---

Let this be our codex! If “Sheol” was used in the original Hebrew of a passage we shall correctly retranslate it as “grave”.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Placements of “sheol” (either kept or translated) continued:

[Scripture] KJV| Douay| NWT| NIV| MLB/NBV| Fenton| NLT| Brenton
[Job 11:8] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave underworld hell
[Job 14:13] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead* grave
[Job 17:13] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Job 17:16] pit pit sheol death Sheol grave grave Hades
[Job 21:13] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Job 24:19] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave death N/A
[Job 26:6] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave underworld hell
[Psalm 6:5] grave hell sheol grave grave grave grave Hades
[Psalm 9:17] hell hell sheol grave Sheol pit grave Hades
[Psalm 16:10] hell hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave hell
[Psalm 18:5] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave N/A
[Psalm 30:3] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 31:17] grave hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave Hades
[Psalm 49:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 49:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 55:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Psalm 86:13] hell hell sheol grave “lower world beyond” grave death hell
[Psalm 88:3] grave hell sheol grave “death’s portals” grave death Hades
[Psalm 89:48] grave hell sheol grave grave grave grave Hades
[Psalm 116:3] hell hell sheol grave grave grave grave hell
[Psalm 139:8] hell hell sheol depths underworld grave dead grave
[Psalm 141:7] gravk hell sheol grave grave nil nil pit
[Prov 1:12] grave hell sheol grave “dead-realm” grave grave Hades
[Prov 5:5] hell hell sheol grave hell grave grave grave
[Prov 7:27] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 9:18] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 15:11] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 15:24] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave hell
[Prov 23:14] pit hell sheol death Sheol grave death death
[Prov 27:20] hell hell sheol death Sheol grave death hell
[Prov 30:16] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave N/A
[Eccl 9:10] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Cant. 8:6] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave grave
[Isa 5:14] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave# hell
[Isa 14:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 14:11] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave nil Hades
[Isa 14:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Isa 28:15] hell hell sheol grave Sheol pit grave Hades
[Isa 38:10] grave hell sheol death grave grave dead grave
[Isa 38:18] grave hell sheol grave grave grave dead grave
[Isa 57:9] hell hell sheol grave Sheol hell dead hell
[Eze 31:15] grave hell sheol grave “realm of the dead” grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:16] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 31:17] hell hell sheol grave realm of the dead grave grave hell
[Eze 32:21] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Eze 32:27] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave death sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Hosea 13:14] grave hell sheol grave Sheol grave grave Hades
[Amos 9:2] hell hell sheol grave Sheol grave dead hell
[Jonah 2:2] hell hell sheol grave Sheol nil dead hell
[Hab 2:5] hell hell sheol grave grave grave death grave

In each of these examples, the original word used is “sheol”…which again is Hebrew and closest to meaning “grave”:

---

Let this be our codex! If “Sheol” was used in the original Hebrew of a passage we shall correctly retranslate it as “grave”.

Thanks

 

[BouncingBall]

Hey guys. Whattup TruthSeeker.

I found this online (copy n paste from a website) but it includes all the verses that I was looking for, to provide a Scriptural answer to some of the things you were saying in this thread. Keep in mind the passage in Psalms where David says that no one can praise God from the grave… that was before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

<< 2 Corinthians 5:8 which says, “we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

Christians are in a win/win situation. Check out the following passage:

Philippians 1:20-26.

Phil 1:20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but {that} with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.
Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Phil 1:22 But if {I am} to live {on} in the flesh, this {will mean} fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
Phil 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both {directions,} having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better;
Phil 1:24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Phil 1:25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
Phil 1:26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Paul was in prison for the cause of Christ (Philippians 1:12-16) and he was telling the Philippian believers about his situation.
· (Paul) I want Christ to be glorified in my body either by life or by death (Philippians 1:20). Why? You might ask. Paul’s response,
· My life is about Christ and if I die it will only be gain (don’t worry about me because I am in a win / win situation. If I live—I am living for Christ, if I die that will only be to my advantage). Let me explain:
· If I get to live, it means fruitful labor for me (1:22) and I can continue for your progress and joy in the faith (1:25).
· Paul was hard pressed between the two situations as he said “I am hard-pressed from both {directions,} having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better (1:23); yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake (1:24), in order that he might “continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith (1:25).

Why is “dying” a gain for Paul (1:21)? Because, “to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better” (1:23). Paul was hard pressed, because he desired to remain in the flesh (body in this context) (1:22) in order to minister to others, yet on the other hand—departing to be with Christ would be “far better” (1:23). For the Philippians’ sake it would be necessary (1:24) to stay and minister to their needs as it relates to their progress and joy in the faith (1:25). This passage is not hard to understand. Paul’s goal in life was to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. He loved to minister to others in the name of Christ, and if he died, it would only mean that he would get to be present with Christ. It is simple. Paul was in a win win situation and he couldn’t lose. He was in prison for preaching the gospel and while he was in prison he preached the gospel (1:12-16). If he lived he would minister to others (1:24-25), but if the ultimate happened, Paul would “depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better” (1:23). Why is it better to die? Because it ushers Paul into the very presence of Christ. Take your Bible out and read chapter one and see for yourself that this was clearly the mindset of Paul. >>

What about the people who have been killed by being eaten head to toe by sharks, let’s say. Can you “sleep” when you haven’t got a body to do the sleeping with?

Also, Mr/Ms TruthSeeker, I respect you not wanting to reveal your denomination publicly, but isn’t it disrespectful to put a hint that the RCC is the whore of Babylon as your signature… on a Catholic online forum? Oh well, nothing I can do about it–just something that I wanted to ask.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I haven’t read the whole thread, so if these have been brought in I apologize.

Luke 16
22 When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ 25 Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented. 26 Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ 27 He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’

Philipians 1
21 For to me life is Christ, and death is gain. 22 If I go on living in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. And I do not know which I shall choose. 23 I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Hey guys. Whattup TruthSeeker.

I found this online (copy n paste from a website) but it includes all the verses that I was looking for, to provide a Scriptural answer to some of the things you were saying in this thread. Keep in mind the passage in Psalms where David says that no one can praise God from the grave… that was before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

<< 2 Corinthians 5:8 which says, “we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

Christians are in a win/win situation. Check out the following passage:

Philippians 1:20-26.

Phil 1:20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but {that} with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.
Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Phil 1:22 But if {I am} to live {on} in the flesh, this {will mean} fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
Phil 1:23 But I am hard-pressed from both {directions,} having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better;
Phil 1:24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Phil 1:25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,
Phil 1:26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Paul was in prison for the cause of Christ (Philippians 1:12-16) and he was telling the Philippian believers about his situation.
· (Paul) I want Christ to be glorified in my body either by life or by death (Philippians 1:20). Why? You might ask. Paul’s response,
· My life is about Christ and if I die it will only be gain (don’t worry about me because I am in a win / win situation. If I live—I am living for Christ, if I die that will only be to my advantage). Let me explain:
· If I get to live, it means fruitful labor for me (1:22) and I can continue for your progress and joy in the faith (1:25).
· Paul was hard pressed between the two situations as he said “I am hard-pressed from both {directions,} having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better (1:23); yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake (1:24), in order that he might “continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith (1:25).

Why is “dying” a gain for Paul (1:21)? Because, “to depart and be with Christ, for {that} is very much better” (1:23). Paul was hard pressed, because he desired to remain in the flesh (body in this context) (1:22) in order to minister to others, yet on the other hand—departing to be with Christ would be “far better” (1:23). For the Philippians’ sake it would be necessary (1:24) to stay and minister to their needs as it relates to their progress and joy in the faith (1:25). This passage is not hard to understand. Paul’s goal in life was to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. He loved to minister to others in the name of Christ, and if he died, it would only mean that he would get to be present with Christ. It is simple. Paul was in a win win situation and he couldn’t lose. He was in prison for preaching the gospel and while he was in prison he preached the gospel (1:12-16). If he lived he would minister to others (1:24-25), but if the ultimate happened, Paul would “depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better” (1:23). Why is it better to die? Because it ushers Paul into the very presence of Christ. Take your Bible out and read chapter one and see for yourself that this was clearly the mindset of Paul. >>

What about the people who have been killed by being eaten head to toe by sharks, let’s say. Can you “sleep” when you haven’t got a body to do the sleeping with?

Also, Mr/Ms TruthSeeker, I respect you not wanting to reveal your denomination publicly, but isn’t it disrespectful to put a hint that the RCC is the whore of Babylon as your signature… on a Catholic online forum? Oh well, nothing I can do about it–just something that I wanted to ask.

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Body destroyed yet he shall see God.

 

[Rence]

I get what you are saying. But read this carefully.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
How can he be buried but in Heaven or hell at the same time?

**Your body gets buried, your soul/spirit goes someplaces else. Surely you know that? I have no clue what denomination doesn’t teach that the soul leaves the body upon death. **

Acts 2:31,32 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
According to your logic, Christ was in a burning place, unless hell means grave.

I’ve already explained that to you specifically in a few other posts: After Christ was crucified, he ‘descended to the dead’ which is the repository for souls after the body dies. He released them from the repository as was planned by his Death and Resurrection. This is the reason why he died and rose from the dead. To release the souls so they could go into heaven. This is God’s triumph over evil. I’ve already explained that there were different words and meanings for hell. For example, there’s the Hell of fire and brimstone, and there’s the hell/Hades that receives souls waiting for release to their final destination.

It means the belly of the fish is hell if hell means grave. Jonah thought that, that would be his grave/resting place.

I’ve already addressed that too. Tell me something, do you read my posts?

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Let’s look at the above scripture. The only way to depart from hell, and according to your beliefs, hell is a PERMANENT place punishment. You can’t leave, unless hell means grave.

Again, Proverbs was from the Old Testament. The Jews are still awaiting their Messiah, who will release the souls from hell/death (the repository for souls). However, Catholics know that Jesus was the Messiah they were waitng for. When he died, he descended to the dead and released the souls from the dead (therefore, they departed from hell).

Now, stay with me on this one. How does a person go directly to Heaven or hell?
Me stay with you? Okay. How about you stay with me and not ask me this again five times. Here’s your answer again. Christ descended to the dead to release the souls that were awaiting their judgement. They no longer go there. They get judged when their body dies. If they were evil in their life, they go to Hell. If they were good and in a state of grace, they go to heaven. If they were good but weren’t purified, they may go to purgatory. Since God is the only judge, he determines where you go. But the gates of heaven were opened by Christ’s Sacrifice. That’s how they go directly to heaven or hell.

Also, psalms 15:20 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Now why would God be in a burning place of punishment? Deaths means sleep and hell means grave.
**
I already answered this many times. Just reread what I posted above **

Thanks for reading

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Thanks for reading

Where were the souls at first? Where were they released from? If they were not in Heaven, hell, or purgatory, where were they released from?

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

One more thing. If it took Jesus’ ressurrection to release souls, why then, after His resurrection were people continuing die and return to hell/grave?

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

According to your logic, wouldn’t the sea be a place of eternal punishment?

 

[Rence]

Where were the souls at first? Where were they released from? If they were not in Heaven, hell, or purgatory, where were they released from?

I’m not sure exactly what your’e asking…the souls were in a body first. When the person died, the souls went to the repository for souls. When Christ Died, and triumphed over evil, he descended to the dead and released the souls so they could go on to be judged before going to Heaven, hell or puragory. They were released from the repository of souls (hell, hades, the dead). Before the repository, they were in their body.

so it goes like this: you’re living, with a soul. Your body dies, your soul leaves your body. Before Christ’s death and resurrection, the soul was in the repository awaiting the Messiah to release them. But after Christ died, he went and released the souls from the repository. They went to their judgement and either went to Heaven, hell or purgatory. From then on, when someone dies, their soul goes for judgement. It doesn’t go to the repository anymore because Christ opened the gate and let them out, forever.

 

[TheosisM]

One more thing. If it took Jesus’ ressurrection to release souls, why then, after His resurrection were people continuing die and return to hell/grave?

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

According to your logic, wouldn’t the sea be a place of eternal punishment?

Of course not. Revelation 20:13 is not referring to Hell, or eternal punishment. This is one of the many errors of the KJV translation. In many instances, where the KJV gives “Hell” as the translation of “Sheol” or “Hades” (which do not refer to the eternal punishment of Hell), other translations (such as the NIV, NASB, ASV, NAB, etc.) translate (or leave it) as “Hades”, “the dead”, or “netherworld”.

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

I’m not sure exactly what your’e asking…the souls were in a body first. When the person died, the souls went to the repository for souls. When Christ Died, and triumphed over evil, he descended to the dead and released the souls so they could go on to be judged before going to Heaven, hell or puragory. They were released from the repository of souls (hell, hades, the dead). Before the repository, they were in their body.

so it goes like this: you’re living, with a soul. Your body dies, your soul leaves your body. Before Christ’s death and resurrection, the soul was in the repository awaiting the Messiah to release them. But after Christ died, he went and released the souls from the repository. They went to their judgement and either went to Heaven, hell or purgatory. From then on, when someone dies, their soul goes for judgement. It doesn’t go to the repository anymore because Christ opened the gate and let them out, forever.

But I think you are forgetting about Revelation

Revelation 20:12,13,14 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now in verse 12, They awaited to be judged, (even though they were already guilty)

Verse 13 The sea and hell delivered them up which were in them.

If the bodies no longer went to repository, why then in Revelation were people being released and awaiting judgement. Also, why in Revelation was hell and death down away with? But you said that hell/grave was done away with at Jesus’ resurrection.