Letter from the Devil on the Assisi gatherings

[Mickey_Jackson]

Calm down people and lighten up I was joking around with the Saint Paul quote. I dont always chalk up charity as “not always being cuddly”, but I do acknowledge that at time you need to be “mean” (at least that is what it would appear to some people) Again I ask you to read Luke 11 when Jesus blatantly called the Pharisees names.

Actually, if you look at that verse in context, you see some surprising things. You see, Christ ate, talked, and probably prayed with just about anyone: prostitutes, tax collectors, and yes, probably more than a few pagans. This was how He won people to Him, not by being “mean” or by “jokingly” putting them down, as you seem to enjoy.

The only people He is “mean” to, the only people He calls names, are those who are so self-righteous that they have absolutely no love in their hearts. Judging by the tone of your posts, I think you need to meditate on this fact.

And actually, this is quite relevant to the Assisi gatherings, and shows why they were a good thing. If John Paul II had taken the tone that I see in your posts in his outreach to other religions, the common stereotypes of Catholicism as a judgemental, harsh, cruel faith would simply be reinforced. Like Christ, he knew that the best way to win people over to the Truth is to show them the Truth. Or, as St. Francis would put it, “Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.”

Quite frankly, if I was an unbeliever reading your posts, I would see that Catholics are petty, legalistic people who enjoy putting others down for “fun.” If I was an unbeliever looking at the life of John Paul II, I would see that the Church’s leaders really do practice what they preach when it comes to love for others. This would perhaps inspire me to take a closer look at the Faith represented by this giant of a man, and it would certainly help dispel some of the prejudices about the Church that have been built up by the mass media. Such would be the first step towards my conversion, whereas your method (“convert or go to Hell”) would ensure that any prospect of my converson would die on the table.

 

[terillmorris]

Actually, if you look at that verse in context, you see some surprising things. You see, Christ ate, talked, and probably prayed with just about anyone: prostitutes, tax collectors, and yes, probably more than a few pagans. This was how He won people to Him, not by being “mean” or by “jokingly” putting them down, as you seem to enjoy.

The only people He is “mean” to, the only people He calls names, are those who are so self-righteous that they have absolutely no love in their hearts. Judging by the tone of your posts, I think you need to meditate on this fact.

And actually, this is quite relevant to the Assisi gatherings, and shows why they were a good thing. If John Paul II had taken the tone that I see in your posts in his outreach to other religions, the common stereotypes of Catholicism as a judgemental, harsh, cruel faith would simply be reinforced. Like Christ, he knew that the best way to win people over to the Truth is to show them the Truth. Or, as St. Francis would put it, “Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.”

Quite frankly, if I was an unbeliever reading your posts, I would see that Catholics are petty, legalistic people who enjoy putting others down for “fun.” If I was an unbeliever looking at the life of John Paul II, I would see that the Church’s leaders really do practice what they preach when it comes to love for others. This would perhaps inspire me to take a closer look at the Faith represented by this giant of a man, and it would certainly help dispel some of the prejudices about the Church that have been built up by the mass media. Such would be the first step towards my conversion, whereas your method (“convert or go to Hell”) would ensure that any prospect of my converson would die on the table.

I have heard it all before Mickey. However, I still must disagree because there are so many examples of saints and other people in s cripture taking the hard nasty approach. Saint Stephen ripped the Sanhedrin in Acts.(I understand that wasnt the only reason why he was stoned) I mean he made them so mad that they stoned him. There are tons of examples of this in the lives of the saints. There is also examples of the “nice” approach. I think we need balance. Some people may be more presuaded by the hard approach some may not. You say you wouldnt be persuaded but turned off. That is nice. You arent everyone. Sorry!!! Some people need to be told, and told quite strongly that they may risk eternal damnation for not believing. Let me give you a great example of what I mean.

Pat Madrid debated James White in the mid 90’s on sola scriptura. Here is what Pat madrid (Vice President of Catholics Answers at the time) said in his closing remarks:

“In my final minute I want to say that I didn’t come here to win arguments, I came here to share the truth. I came here to invite you all to the fullness of the truth which is found in the Catholic Church. And I’d like to use the words of a famous Catholic apologist, Edmund Campion, who is a priest. He was formerly a Protestant, then he converted to the Catholic church. He wrote this letter and I hope you’ll give me a couple seconds over–if I go over 10 or 15 seconds. [Discussion about how much time is left. The moderator informs Mr. Madrid that 2 minutes are remaining.] I would like to use his words to make my own tonight because I know that many of you are not Catholic and I know that many of you run the risk of going to Hell if you do not accept the truth that Jesus Christ is offering to you. If you leave this room tonight and you suppress the doubt that may be in your heart about what Mr. White is saying tonight or the questioning that may be in your heart about whether or not the Catholic Church is the true church, you have to answer to God at some point. You don’t have to answer to me or Mr. White. I’m inviting you to consider, to study, to pray about the Catholic position. No, Mr. White, I don’t mean that in the Mormon sense of the word. I mean that in the Biblical sense of the word. Here’s what Edmund Campion said. I say this to all of you and I also say it respectfully and with some affection for Mr. White. …” ( Madrid goes on to quote Campion. You can google this "Pat Madrid James White Sola Scriptura-the full transcript of the debate is on line)

Notics Madrid says that many of you who are not Catholic RUN THE RISK OF GOING TO HELL. Important!! He layed it on the line, and I think he did with great charity even though some criticized him for it after the debate. I think that is a very appropriate approach. If you agree with that approach then you have no argument with me.

 

[ProVobis]

Here are two prayers that were said at Assisi:

.Two tribal animists from Africa intoned:
“Almighty God, the Great Thumb we cannot evade in tying any knot, the Roaring Thunder that splits mighty trees, the All-Seeing Lord up on high who sees even the foot prints of an antelope on a rock mass here on earth… you are the cornerstone of peace.”

“O Great Spirit, I raise my pipe to you, to your messengers the four winds, and to mother earth, who provides for your children… I pray that you bring peace to all my brothers and sisters of this world”

Good thing it wasn’t said in Latin. Might have been heretical.

 

[JReducation]

I never said he didnt make statments regarding salvation, and the Church’s necessity. I said that his statements werent very strong. That is still my opinion.

His statements were filled with very good theology and supported by reason. Do you want more strength than good theology coupled with reason?

Also, his actions, like Assisi, kissing the koran, calling Budism a “great rich of Asia” etc. Dilutes his words and leaves, in my opinion, an ambiguous message.

You don’t have to like his actions. You just have to respect his rights as the Pontiff.

Another question do you believe that when John Paul II kissed the Koran (in a public setting) was a bad example? Or do you believe there is nothing wrong with that? Or it is no big deal?

The Quran contains a great deal of revelation. There are part of the Pentateuch in the Quran, there is an entire Marian theology which is quite consistent with what we believe about Mary, excepting that she was the Mother of God, everyrthing that it says about Mary is true. It speaks about the love that is due to God, the importance of prayer and the intimacy of the soul and God. It speaks of God as the Creator.

Truth must be recognized where ever it’s found. Whether the Pope wants to kiss it or simply proclaim that the Quran contains truth, it’s his call. What he cannot due is deny the truths that it contains. He doesn’t have to trash the entire thing because it also contains errors.

Benedict XVI had never kissed a Quran, to the best of my knowledge, but he has openly acknowledged that it contains great truths.

As to Buddhism, I fail to understand why you take exception with it being called the “rich of Asia”. Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion. We cannot deny that it has contributed much to Asian society and that many great thinkers have come out of Buddhist philosophy. Nor can we deny that many contemplaitve orders and Buddhism share many values in common. It would be ignorant to deny the positive influence of Buddhism on the people of Asia.

The Pope was a holy man and holy people accept humanity’s goodness and humanity’s contribution for the good of all, even if it comes from outside the Church. The saints focus on Christ’s humanity and they try to live according to Christ’s humanity. This is what John Paul II did. He preached Christ’s humanity through his words and actions.

So what’s the problem? Did you want him to resurrect the Inquisition?

JR

 

[JReducation]

Notics Madrid says that many of you who are not Catholic RUN THE RISK OF GOING TO HELL. Important!! He layed it on the line, and I think he did with great charity even though some criticized him for it after the debate. I think that is a very appropriate approach. If you agree with that approach then you have no argument with me.

Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have a problem with this. Remember what Benedict said to the non Catholic Christians.

“What separates us is hermaneutics and we must dialogue.”

Remember what he and John Paul II said in Ut Unum Sint “The spirit of Christ has used the reformation communities as a means of salvation.”

If Christ has used the Reformation churches as a means of salvation, then one is not in danger of going to hell because one is Protestant, but because one is a bad Protestant.

Being Catholic is not a passport to Heaven, holiness is. Check out the Liturgy of the Hours for today. Read what St. Catherine of Siena has to say.

JR

 

[terillmorris]

His statements were filled with very good theology and supported by reason. Do you want more strength than good theology coupled with reason?

Also, his actions, like Assisi, kissing the koran, calling Budism a “great rich of Asia” etc. Dilutes his words and leaves, in my opinion, an ambiguous message.

You don’t have to like his actions. You just have to respect his rights as the Pontiff.

The Quran contains a great deal of revelation. There are part of the Pentateuch in the Quran, there is an entire Marian theology which is quite consistent with what we believe about Mary, excepting that she was the Mother of God, everyrthing that it says about Mary is true. It speaks about the love that is due to God, the importance of prayer and the intimacy of the soul and God. It speaks of God as the Creator.

Truth must be recognized where ever it’s found. Whether the Pope wants to kiss it or simply proclaim that the Quran contains truth, it’s his call. What he cannot due is deny the truths that it contains. He doesn’t have to trash the entire thing because it also contains errors.

Benedict XVI had never kissed a Quran, to the best of my knowledge, but he has openly acknowledged that it contains great truths.

As to Buddhism, I fail to understand why you take exception with it being called the “rich of Asia”. Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion. We cannot deny that it has contributed much to Asian society and that many great thinkers have come out of Buddhist philosophy. Nor can we deny that many contemplaitve orders and Buddhism share many values in common. It would be ignorant to deny the positive influence of Buddhism on the people of Asia.

The Pope was a holy man and holy people accept humanity’s goodness and humanity’s contribution for the good of all, even if it comes from outside the Church. The saints focus on Christ’s humanity and they try to live according to Christ’s humanity. This is what John Paul II did. He preached Christ’s humanity through his words and actions.

So what’s the problem? Did you want him to resurrect the Inquisition?

JR

Jr JRJR I mean c’mon talk about preaching to the choir. I never said the Pope couldnt kiss the Koran, pray with pagans, let heretical Bishops continue to govern, allow communion in the hand etc He can do all that.(my opinion is that he shouldnt, but I understand he can) That was a joke of a point. What I said was I don’t agree with it. I think it leaves a very ambiguous impression, in regards to salvation and the need to convert non-catholics, with everyday catholics. I am allowed to think that. If you want to belive those actions were a good example then go ahead. I disagree vehemently.
You also say Pope John Paul II was a holy man. How do you know that? Did you recieve a private revelation as to the state of his soul? I dont know his state and you dont either. I will pray for him as you im sure will too.

 

[terillmorris]

Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have a problem with this. Remember what Benedict said to the non Catholic Christians.

“What separates us is hermaneutics and we must dialogue.”

Remember what he and John Paul II said in Ut Unum Sint “The spirit of Christ has used the reformation communities as a means of salvation.”

If Christ has used the Reformation churches as a means of salvation, then one is not in danger of going to hell because one is Protestant, but because one is a bad Protestant.

Being Catholic is not a passport to Heaven, holiness is. Check out the Liturgy of the Hours for today. Read what St. Catherine of Siena has to say.

JR

You are wrong and bordering on hersey. “Means of salvation” simply means that God can use those churches to bring Protestants to the one true Church. We must dialogue yes, but all dialogue will lead to Rome. No protestant is saved for being a good protestant. sorry you are tlaking like a modernist.

 

[JReducation]

You are wrong and bordering on hersey. “Means of salvation” simply means that God can use those churches to bring Protestants to the one true Church. We must dialogue yes, but all dialogue will lead to Rome. No protestant is saved for being a good protestant. sorry you are tlaking like a modernist.

It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation (Ut Unum Sint, Parr 10)

Not my words, but the words of the Church. Written by Cardinal Ratzinger and signed by John Paul II.

I guess John Paul II and Benedict XVI are bordering on heressy.

JR

 

[terillmorris]

**It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation **(Ut Unum Sint, Parr 10)

Not my words, but the words of the Church. Written by Cardinal Ratzinger and signed by John Paul II.

I guess John Paul II and Benedict XVI are bordering on heressy.

JR

JR I’d love to get you on the telephone so I could give about 1000 quotes from Popes and councils that show you are terribly wrong. I agree that they are “means of salvation.” That doesnt mean they are saved because of those churches. The term “means of salvation” cant mean anything other than God uses those “churches” to bring people to the one true church. This teaching must be interpreted in light of the traditionally teaching of the church. SORRY JR NICE TRY!!!

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

For the record:

1. There exists what I call a “Vin Lewis school” of apologetics, which believes that strutting about like an arrogant blowhard is the best way to convince people of the truth. Vin Lewis, however, who claims to focus his “ministry” at Protestant pastors, has yet to convert a single one. Perhaps his school should consult the wisdom of St. Francis de Sales (remember that doctor of the Church who converted tens of thousands back to the faith?), who was of the opinion that you win more souls with a tablespoon of honey than with a gallon of vinegar.
2. I attend the TLM at an FSSP chaplaincy every Sunday I can get there.
3. My son (who will be born within the next 3 weeks or so), will receive the name John Paul. I anticipate getting a lot of funny looks and probably even open flak about that.

With those things on the table, I think Assisi was a monumental blunder. Mickey, you’ve repeated a few times, IIRC, that John Paul’s treatment of the pagans at Assisi was quite likely the best means of evangelization the pope could have chosen. So I’ll ask you this: How many of the pagans at Assisi have now been incorporated into Christ in His Holy Catholic Church? Most of those pagans went home, I suspect, congratulating themselves on how the pope acted so deferential towards their religions rather than hearing what he had to say about Christ. For the record, I don’t believe there was any prayer in common with non-Christians (AFAIK the pope delivered an address and then everyone was supposed to split up to be free to pray according to their own traditions), but I don’t think anyone left that day with the call of Christ ringing in their ears and I also don’t think we have yet to see a single fruit that can be traced directly to the event. It was confusing, not edifying. I love John Paul II, but I think he simply fell on his face with this particular event.

 

[terillmorris]

For the record:

1. There exists what I call a “Vin Lewis school” of apologetics, which believes that strutting about like an arrogant blowhard is the best way to convince people of the truth. Vin Lewis, however, who claims to focus his “ministry” at Protestant pastors, has yet to convert a single one. Perhaps his school should consult the wisdom of St. Francis de Sales (remember that doctor of the Church who converted tens of thousands back to the faith?), who was of the opinion that you win more souls with a tablespoon of honey than with a gallon of vinegar.
2. I attend the TLM at an FSSP chaplaincy every Sunday I can get there.
3. My son (who will be born within the next 3 weeks or so), will receive the name John Paul. I anticipate getting a lot of funny looks and probably even open flak about that.

With those things on the table, I think Assisi was a monumental blunder. Mickey, you’ve repeated a few times, IIRC, that John Paul’s treatment of the pagans at Assisi was quite likely the best means of evangelization the pope could have chosen. So I’ll ask you this: How many of the pagans at Assisi have now been incorporated into Christ in His Holy Catholic Church? Most of those pagans went home, I suspect, congratulating themselves on how the pope acted so deferential towards their religions rather than hearing what he had to say about Christ. For the record, I don’t believe there was any prayer in common with non-Christians (AFAIK the pope delivered an address and then everyone was supposed to split up to be free to pray according to their own traditions), but I don’t think anyone left that day with the call of Christ ringing in their ears and I also don’t think we have yet to see a single fruit that can be traced directly to the event. It was confusing, not edifying. I love John Paul II, but I think he simply fell on his face with this particular event.

I agree that John Paul fell on his face on this one, but that is my opinion. Regarding the Vin Lewis school of apologetics–I dont agree with all of Vin’s theology (feenyite-he is_ ) but for you to say he hasnt converted anyone (or any pastors he has talked to) is very presumptious. how do you know? From what I understand Vin has debted or interviewed over 1000 protestant leaders, so I think you’d be hard pressed to back your words up. Anyway let’s stay on topic.

 

[Jeanette_L]

By the way Jeanette, after reading your last post Saint Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 14 came to mind,

"
33: …As in all the churches of the saints, 34: the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35: If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36: What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 37: If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. "

So, even if I were to take you seriously here, which I don’t, I’m looking around my house and have to say that I’m not in church here, are you?

I ask again, are you really a seminarian? Because this is a silly way to dialog with a people, insulting everyone around you, how effective do you think you will be in ministry if you continue with this shtick?

 

[terillmorris]

So, even if I were to take you seriously here, which I don’t, I’m looking around my house and have to say that I’m not in church here, are you?

I ask again, are you really a seminarian? Because this is a silly way to dialog with a people, insulting everyone around you, how effective do you think you will be in ministry if you continue with this shtick?

All I said was that after reading your post it reminded me of that Bible passage. Nothing less nothing more. God love you!! Yes I am a seminarian, and no I didnt insult you. lighten up!!! dont be so emotional.

 

[Jeanette_L]

All I said was that after reading your post it reminded me of that Bible passage. Nothing less nothing more. God love you!! Yes I am a seminarian, and no I didnt insult you. lighten up!!! dont be so emotional.

You hate women, don’t you? Well, in time that will get worked out of you, God willing.

 

[terillmorris]

You hate women, don’t you? Well, in time that will get worked out of you, God willing.

Nope I love women. Especially ones who know thier place in life.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Nope I love women. Especially ones who know thier place in life.

When will you learn that these “jokes” are not funny?

I’ll say it again: for the sake of the Church, may you never become a priest.

 

[anamchara]

Nope I love women. Especially ones who know thier place in life.

Are you Catholic?

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Are you Catholic?

I’m starting to have my doubts, too…

There is a difference between being Catholic in name, and Catholic in spirit. This is why people who are materially separated from the Church can be spiritually joined to her and therefore achieve salvation, while those who are materially joined to the Church can be spiritually separated and lose their salvation.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Another article for your edification, Terrill:

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT

Perhaps it will clarify what the Church means when she teaches that even false religions can be used by God as means of salvation, and that far from being a Modernist innovation, this teaching dates back to the Fathers.

Please read this one.

 

[anamchara]

I’m starting to have my doubts, too…

There is a difference between being Catholic in name, and Catholic in spirit. This is why people who are materially separated from the Church can be spiritually joined to her and therefore achieve salvation, while those who are materially joined to the Church can be spiritually separated and lose their salvation.

I can’t tell if he is really joking because I haven’t read back far enough. If he is joking then fine, I joke around on here as well. But if not then I can’t imagine him being a seminarian in the Catholic Church.