Letter from the Devil on the Assisi gatherings

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Mickey_Jackson

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This is an interesting article; has anyone read it?

bringyou.to/apologetics/p30.htm

I think that people who criticize the Assisi event misunderstand the intentions of John Paul II. They seem to think that what he should have said was this: “Hey, everyone, come to Assisi so I can tell you about how you’re going to Hell if you don’t become Catholic!” Think about it: when a fundamentalist Protestant comes to your door and tries to tell you that all Catholics are Hell-bound, odds are that it makes you more firm, more convinced of your own faith, if sometimes only out of a certain defensiveness. In this context, wasn’t it perhaps more effective for JPII to appeal to the sentiments of every human heart, and perhaps take the opportunity to show that in the Catholic Faith is found the fulfillment of these sentiments?

I suppose my point is this: whether or not you ultimately agree that the Assisi meetings were a good idea, it would be really, really nice if people on these forums stopped implying that he was some kind of indifferentist or syncretist, because that clearly wasn’t his intention in any of his ecumenical efforts.
 
Mickey

This was an awesome article. It really describes what we see here on CAF all too often, a spirit of condemnation instead of a spirit of conversion.

Ecumenism is not about condemnation, it is about conversion. Conversions take time and grace. There is not such thing as conversion by the sword.

The most effective evangelists in the history of the Church have been the Jesuits, the Dominicans and the Franciscans. If you look at their history, those who brought in the converts were those who were most faithful to their own conversion, such as St. Francis Xavier, Bl. Mother Teresa, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Padre Pio and Blessed Junipero Serra.

Some people have had the audacity to refer to the Pope’s recent visit to a Jewish Synogogue in NYC as an abomination. That’s a pretty strong word to apply to a Pope, especially from those who do not have the authority or rank to do so.

Instead of defending the Church or protecting the dignity of Peter, they have joined the ranks of those outside the Church who look for every opportunity to condemn the Church. What Catholics should be doing is explaining why the Pope visited a Jewish synogogue.

They should have explained that Passover is has a special meaning to Catholics as well as Jews. That by visiting the synogogue the Pope was announcing to the Jews and the world, that Passover is a point where we are united in faith. We both believe in the mysteries that took place during the Passover. We both believe in the Ten Commandments that were revealed as a result of the Passover. We both believe in the God of Moses. Our Holy Father’s visit was not to a strange home or a den of iniquity, but to a sacred space where the Blessed Mother, Saint Jospeh and Jesus once prayed and worshipped God.

When the Pope prayed with non Catholic Christians he sent a message to all Catholics. He reminded us that our non Catholic brothers and sisters are children of the Church. Despite the mistakes of the past, they continue to be united to us in their Christology. They too recognize that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. They recognize that Jesus died and rose for our salvation. They believe that the scriptures are the revealed truth of God.

As the Pope said, “the hermaneutics are what separates us.” It is not our faith in Christ that separates us, but our understanding of scripture. He pointed out something that most Catholics don’t know. The separation between Christians is due to mistakes in hermaneutics, not in a lack of faith in Jesus Christ. We all share the faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we are still united.

The Holy Father wanted Catholics and non Catholics to see that whether either side likes it or not, we still have the same Christian genes. Therefore, we are still connected to the Mystical Body and salvation is a possibility for all.

He found common grounds with all of these eccesial communities. Rather than taking the high road and threatening to send everyone to hell, he took the road of humility and showed Catholics and non Catholics, that we are all born from the same seed, Jesus Christ.

This allows for dialogue about differences, because people are not being antagonized, belittled, threatened, nor are their beliefs attacked.

The Church is simply saying “This is what all of us believe. Let’s talk about it.” Eventually, “Can we talk about somethings that are different among us and see where we can reach a consensus?”

Ecumenism is evangelization that begins by announcing Good News, “We are all part of one family, becasue we all share some spiritual genes.” Even though there is no salvation outside the Church, most of us are connected to the Church in some way or another. Thank God for that piece of Good News.

We had never though of it this way before.

This does not deny anything that the Church taught in the past. It simply says that we are growing in our understanding of what it means to be part of the Church and what it means to be outside the Church. Our understanding is clearer than it was in the past.

This is a sign of the Holy Spirit at work. He is shedding light on our understanding of the Church or what theologians call eccesiology.

There is nothing new in the doctrine, just in the understanding of the doctrine.

I like to use the analogy of medicine. The human body is the same today as it was in ancient Greece, but our understanding of how the body functions and responds to certain things is much more sophisticated. That being said, there is nothing new that has been added to what was already known about human anatomy.

There is nothing new in the anatomy of the Church. Only the understanding of the Church is more sophisticated. It takes from tradition and builds on it by adding some things that our anscestors had not seen.

That’s a beautiful thing. Because it shows that the Church is not stuck. The truth remains the same, but the understanding of the truth is deeper and deeper each day.

JR 🙂
 
LOL NICE TRY!!! The Assisi conference was horrible. John Paul ought not to have done it. Some of the people that were there werent even monotheistic. I mean c’mon!! Are you really going to believe that praying with these people didnt give the impression of indiiferentism to them, and the rest of the world? I cant for the life of me see how you can defend Assisi. I mean Pius X wouldnt even recieve Theodore Roosevelt when he was in Italy because he had been speaking at a Methodist church. Assisi is a huge leap. I’d take Piux X’s example over John Paul II aNY day. No disrespect to JPII. I loved him and prayed for him daily, but in my opinion, he was a weak weak Pope. 🙂
 
LOL NICE TRY!!! The Assisi conference was horrible. John Paul ought not to have done it. Some of the people that were there werent even monotheistic. I mean c’mon!! Are you really going to believe that praying with these people didnt give the impression of indiiferentism to them, and the rest of the world? I cant for the life of me see how you can defend Assisi. I mean Pius X wouldnt even recieve Theodore Roosevelt when he was in Italy because he had been speaking at a Methodist church. Assisi is a huge leap. I’d take Piux X’s example over John Paul II aNY day. No disrespect to JPII. I loved him and prayed for him daily, but in my opinion, he was a weak weak Pope. 🙂
Just wondering…did you even bother to read the article? Did you take the time to read JR’s post? Have you ever taken the time to look up what St. Thomas Aquinas says about contact with non-believers?
 
One could even say that St. Pius X, by refusing to speak to Theodore Roosevelt, passed up what could have been a valuable opportunity to share the True Faith! Would you prefer it if John Paul II hadn’t even tried to show these non-believers the beauty and goodness of the Catholic Faith?
 
By the way the article is stupid in many ways. I could easily write a screwtape letter for the opposite side of the spectrum. For 2000 years no Pope did what JPII did at Assisi. Not the great Popes of PIUs XII, PIus X, Pius XI, Pius IX, Pius V, Blessed Innocent XI, Benedict XV, not even Blessed John XXIII. O ya right John Paul got it right!!! He saw the wisdom and no one else did.
 
One could even say that St. Pius X, by refusing to speak to Theodore Roosevelt, passed up what could have been a valuable opportunity to share the True Faith! Would you prefer it if John Paul II hadn’t even tried to show these non-believers the beauty and goodness of the Catholic Faith?
C’mon!!! please!!! He didnt have to bring these pagans to Assis and pray with them to evangelize. He could have done it in many other ways.
 
C’mon!!! please!!! He didnt have to bring these pagans to Assis and pray with them to evangelize. He could have done it in many other ways.
Did you read the Fulton Sheen quote? We’ve been trying for 1500 years to evangelize the Muslims through polemics, and such methods have quite obviously failed. That’s not to denigrate our ancestors in the Faith, but simply to acknowledge that there are other approaches to spreading the Gospel. What John Paul II was doing was rooted in the Dominican approach to apologetics, which essentially says, “Let’s start from where we agree, and move from there.” It’s a slow process, but a fruitful one, as St. Dominic could attest.

Finally, if you think the Screwtape article was stupid, here’s a very scholarly defense of the Assisi gatherings based on the theology of St. Thomas:

matt1618.freeyellow.com/assissi.html

It’s a long article, but well worth reading. I await your response.
 
Mickey,

No good deed goes unpunished!

Thanks for that article; I’ve felt that way for a long time.

John
 
Mickey,

No good deed goes unpunished!

Thanks for that article; I’ve felt that way for a long time.

John
It was written by a very promising young apologist (Italian, I think, which explains the occasional grammatical errors). People like him give me much hope for the future of the Church.
 
Who said we failed so far in evangelizing the Muslims? I mean I dont even know how you measure failed or not failed. I disagree that bringing them to Assisi and praying with them, and other non catholics was not a mistake, especially since there was no mention of them converting. Even John Paul’s subsequent comments arent real real clear about non catholics converting. In 25 years of his papacy I bet you can probably only find a handful of quotes telling people to convert. I think that goes a long way in understanding ASSISI. I mean I may buy some of your arguments if we had a plethra of commnets by JPII urging muslims to convert. We dont have that.😛
 
Who said we failed so far in evangelizing the Muslims? I mean I dont even know how you measure failed or not failed. I disagree that bringing them to Assisi and praying with them, and other non catholics was not a mistake, especially since there was no mention of them converting. Even John Paul’s subsequent comments arent real real clear about non catholics converting. In 25 years of his papacy I bet you can probably only find a handful of quotes telling people to convert. I think that goes a long way in understanding ASSISI. I mean I may buy some of your arguments if we had a plethra of commnets by JPII urging muslims to convert. We dont have that.😛
Have you read any of his encyclicals? Have you read Veritas Splendor, or Redemptoris Missio? He repeatedly told the whole world that the fulfillment of Truth is found in Jesus Christ, specifically through His Holy Catholic Church! At Assisi, the entire theme of the event was, “Peace Bears the Name of Jesus Christ.” Short of explicitly saying to them, “Convert or go to Hell,” I’d say JPII did quite a good job of telling people of the necessity of coming to Christ!
 
And regarding our overall failure in evangelizing the Muslims, Islam very recently surpassed Catholicism as the largest denomination in the world. Clearly, we have not succeeded in our attempts to stop the spread of Islam. That’s why Bishop Sheen says that we need to foster their devotion to the Blessed Mother, trusting that she will eventually lead them to her Son.
 
LOL YOU PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLE!! Please, I am sure you can find those themes in JPII’s encyclicals, but his language is very ambiguous. I mean please quote his strongest quote, or give us three strong ones from the man. I doubt your going to find to much more than ambigous s tatments that you have to read 4 times to get the meaning. I know you wont find him telling people that they need to convert or they may perish. Jesus said it. The Bible says it. The other Popes said it. Why cant JPII?

Please have you all even read about other Popes like PIUS X? Please read his biography. Then ask yourself. Could you see Pope ST> PIUSX inviting these people to Assisi and pray with them?? I mean it is laughable. What about all the Catholics around the world who think we dont need to go out an actively convert non-catholics because of the Popes actions?? What about that? c’mon your sleeping. Take your head out of the sand.
 
As a history major, one of my biggest pet peeves is trying to hold people of one time to the customs of another. Examples are “Father Serra didn’t treat his Indians right,” or invalidating everything Thomas Jefferson did because he didn’t hold to 21st Century standards (whatever those are). There is no telling what a different kind of pope Pius X would have been if he had lived the life of JPII or vice versa.

John
 
LOL YOU PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLE!! Please, I am sure you can find those themes in JPII’s encyclicals, but his language is very ambiguous. I mean please quote his strongest quote, or give us three strong ones from the man. I doubt your going to find to much more than ambigous s tatments that you have to read 4 times to get the meaning. I know you wont find him telling people that they need to convert or they may perish. Jesus said it. The Bible says it. The other Popes said it. Why cant JPII?
you are the unbelievable. Read those encyclicals, please, because you sound silly. Ambiguous language? You must have read something else…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html
 
I guees it comes down to opinion. I totally disagree that Assisi was a good thing. If you do fine. I mean I beleive it was the totally wrong thing to do, and therefore I dont think JPII was a great Pope by any means. (that isnt the only reason why i think that) I could quote Pope after Pope that says we shouldnt pray with non-catholics. i mean Pius x and Piux XI and Pius XII certainly are not that far apart in uears than John Paul’s reign It is where we agree to disagree. It isnt a matter of doctrine, but a matter of prudence. I think it was a mistake. You are entitled to your opinion. I do have one question. Do you think Assisi was a good thing? Or do you think it just wasnt a scandal as some say it is?
 
PLEASE CUT AND PASTE A DIRECT QUOTE ON SALVATION—DOES HE EVER MENTION HELL OR ETERNAL PERIL??? PLEASE CUT AND PASTE A DIRECT QUOTE FROM THOSE ENCYCLICALS.
 
I very much loved HH Pope John Paul II, may he rest in everlasting peace, and I look forward to the day when he will be a saint, but I think Assisi was a prudential error. The intentions behind it were good, but I think it was very problematic. Nonetheless, John Paul the Great will be remembered as one of the greatest of the Popes. May he soon be raised to the honors of the altar.
 
I very much loved HH Pope John Paul II, may he rest in everlasting peace, and I look forward to the day when he will be a saint, but I think Assisi was a prudential error. The intentions behind it were good, but I think it was very problematic. Nonetheless, John Paul the Great will be remembered as one of the greatest of the Popes. May he soon be raised to the honors of the altar.
WOW JKIRK!!! you admitted JPII made a mistake–wow–you never cease to shock me LOL GOD BLESS YOU!!! ILL REMEMBER YOU TOMMOROROW MORNING AT MASS.(IM SERIOUS ABOUT THAT)👍
 
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