Letter from the Devil on the Assisi gatherings

[stmaria]

I thought this was fairly obvious anyway, as any reasonable mind **cannot pray for **a philosophy (religion), but only for people, this is just logical.

I can’t for the life of me understand why so many here are having such a difficult time with the Pope praying for a** whole group of people, **this is part of his ministry as the Vicor of Christ, is it not?

Ialam is a religion not a group of people

“May Saint John Baptist protect** Islam**.” Pope John Paul

 

[anamchara]

Sorry Mickey, **JR has been proven wrong on so many facts and so many theolgical premises on these boards it isn’t even funny. **

“Credentials” have to be demonstrated here - not self-proclaimed.

Nice little calumny there…I’ve read many of JR posts. This is rubbish.

Ialam is a religion not a group of people

"May Saint John Baptist protect

** Islam**." Pope John Paul

There is nothing wrong with the way she used “group of people” are they are group of monkeys?

What is wrong with that prayer?

 

[Jeanette_L]

As to whether or no Pope John Paul prayed for Islam one has to examine two things. First, it was not a liturgical prayer. It was a personal Prayer. He is not praying as the Church.

Second, when judging personal prayer, you have to get the (name removed by moderator)ut of the individual’s spiritual director or the person’s spiritual writings to know what the intent is.

If you read Pope John Paul’s personal writings and the writings of his Spiritual Director and his Secretary, it becomes very clear that he uses the term Islam interchangeable with the term Muslim. He does this consistently in his writings, his dicussions and his private conversations. The insight that we gleam from these other sources tell us that he is really concerned with the people of Islam, not the teachings of Islam.

Also, reading his works, his journals and those of his closest friends you will see that he is very clever in identifying those elements of Islam that flow from Catholicism and he venerates them, because they are Catholic beliefs that Islam preservec. He does not venerate what Islam added, only what they kept from the Judeo-Christian faith.

JR

Ialam is a religion not a group of people

“May Saint John Baptist protect** Islam**.” Pope John Paul

Once again stmaria, it seems you choose to ignore some things in order to hold on to your premise. Please read the entire post, with the intent to understand what was written, not with the intent to criticize and argue from emotion.

Understanding the** heart of a person** goes a long way in understanding the person and his intentions in what he says and does. If you choose to ignore these things, you have taken yourself out of the realm of informed reason on the issue and are left with nothing but emotionalism - which is never good when forming opinions, especially when you use those opinions to try to tear down a man’s character who more than likely will be named a Saint in our lifetime.

 

[jam070406]

Once again stmaria, it seems you choose to ignore some things in order to hold on to your premise. Please read the entire post, with the intent to understand what was written, not with the intent to criticize and argue from emotion.

Understanding the** heart of a person** goes a long way in understanding the person and his intentions in what he says and does. If you choose to ignore these things, you have taken yourself out of the realm of informed reason on the issue and are left with nothing but emotionalism - which is never good when forming opinions, especially when you use those opinions to try to tear down a man’s character who more than likely will be named a Saint in our lifetime.

So what do think his intent was? Do you think he meant, pray that Muslims will repent of their sins and be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

btw, I find it ironic that you say we can’t understand what’s in someone’s heart and then accuse stmaria of trying to “tear down a man’s character”

 

[jam070406]

We do pray that we will be guided to truth as St. Athanasius was guided.

However, be careful, we do not pray to St. Athanasius in the Liturgy of the Hours. The Liturgy of the Hours is like the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of th Eucharist. The prayer is always directed to God, not the saints.

As to whether or no Pope John Paul prayed for Islam one has to examine two things. First, it was not a liturgical prayer. It was a personal Prayer. He is not praying as the Church.

Second, when judging personal prayer, you have to get the (name removed by moderator)ut of the individual’s spiritual director or the person’s spiritual writings to know what the intent is.

If you read Pope John Paul’s personal writings and the writings of his Spiritual Director and his Secretary, it becomes very clear that he uses the term Islam interchangeable with the term Muslim. He does this consistently in his writings, his dicussions and his private conversations. The insight that we gleam from these other sources tell us that he is really concerned with the people of Islam, not the teachings of Islam.

Also, reading his works, his journals and those of his closest friends you will see that he is very clever in identifying those elements of Islam that flow from Catholicism and he venerates them, because they are Catholic beliefs that Islam preservec. He does not venerate what Islam added, only what they kept from the Judeo-Christian faith.

I would recommend that you read the following:

John Paul the Great: Remembering a Spiritual Father by Peggy Noonan

Pope John Paul II: In My Own Words by Pope John Paul II

A Life with Karol: My Forty-Year Friendship with the Man Who Became Pope by Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz

Miracles of John Paul II by Pawel Zuchniewicz

These will give the reader some insight into the mysticism of this man of God.

JR

Somehow I don’t think St. Athanasius would’ve done what JPII did in public at Assisi.
What JPII wrote on paper and did in action are two entirely different things.
Why would JPII venerate a false religion?? Did he also venerate ALL heresies that contain a nugget or two of truth?
This is ridiculous. Did the Apostles, Martyrs, Church Fathers, Saints venerate heretical sects and false religions? :tsktsk:

 

[stmaria]

Understanding the** heart of a person** goes a long way in understanding the person and his intentions in what he says and does. If you choose to ignore these things, you have taken yourself out of the realm of informed reason on the issue and are left with nothing but emotionalism - which is never good when forming opinions, especially when you use those opinions to try to tear down a man’s character who more than likely will be named a Saint in our lifetime.

I am quite sure that Pope John Paul’s intentions were to foster dialogue between the Church and Moslems. But to pray that Islam, a false anti-christian religion, be protected is going too far.

If he said 'May Saint John Baptist protect Mormonism" would you try to understand what was in his heart. There is no reason for such pandering.

Pope John Paul may well be declared a Saint, however not everything a Pope says is infallible. He used the wrong choice of words. Should not have been said. Kissing the Quran was a mistake.
If Pope Benedict kissed the book of Mormon what would you say?
Intention and perception are very important.

These actions create the impression that all religions are equal. That all religions are to be praised.

*PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS *ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907
14.“How far this position is removed from that of Catholic teaching! We have already seen how its fallacies have been condemned by the Vatican Council. Later on, we shall see how these errors, combined with those which we have already mentioned, open wide the way to Atheism. Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true”

UBI PRIMUM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XII
ON HIS ASSUMING THE PONTIFICATE
MAY 5, 1824
14……. **It is impossible **for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, **to approve all sects who profess false teachings **which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members”

QUI PLURIBUS
ON FAITH AND RELIGION
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX
NOVEMBER 9, 1846

1. Also perverse is the shocking theory that it makes no difference to which religion one belongs, a theory which is greatly at variance even with reason. By means of this theory, those crafty men remove all distinction between virtue and vice, truth and error, honorable and vile action. They pretend that men can gain eternal salvation by the practice of any religion, as if there could ever be any sharing between justice and iniquity, any collaboration between light and darkness, or any agreement between Christ and Belial"

 

[jam070406]

I am quite sure that Pope John Paul’s intentions were to foster dialogue between the Church and Moslems. But to pray that Islam, a false anti-christian religion, be protected is going too far.

If he said 'May Saint John Baptist protect Mormonism" would you try to understand what was in his heart. There is no reason for such pandering.

Pope John Paul may well be declared a Saint, however not everything a Pope says is infallible. He used the wrong choice of words. Should not have been said. Kissing the Quran was a mistake.
If Pope Benedict kissed the book of Mormon what would you say?
Intention and perception are very important.

These actions create the impression that all religions are equal. That all religions are to be praised.

*PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS *ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907
14.“How far this position is removed from that of Catholic teaching! We have already seen how its fallacies have been condemned by the Vatican Council. Later on, we shall see how these errors, combined with those which we have already mentioned, open wide the way to Atheism. Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true”

UBI PRIMUM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XII
ON HIS ASSUMING THE PONTIFICATE
MAY 5, 1824
14……. **It is impossible **for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, **to approve all sects who profess false teachings **which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members”

QUI PLURIBUS
ON FAITH AND RELIGION
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX
NOVEMBER 9, 1846

1. Also perverse is the shocking theory that it makes no difference to which religion one belongs, a theory which is greatly at variance even with reason. By means of this theory, those crafty men remove all distinction between virtue and vice, truth and error, honorable and vile action. They pretend that men can gain eternal salvation by the practice of any religion, as if there could ever be any sharing between justice and iniquity, any collaboration between light and darkness, or any agreement between Christ and Belial"

Good post stmaria!
I was gonna write much of the same but I think you expressed it better then I would have.

 

[JReducation]

The point is that all we have to go on are external actions. Until you study the mind of the person and his intentions you will never be sure what his motives were.

The Church hierarchy does not operate this way. When a person’s holiness is examined, much more attention is placed on the motive than on the actions.

Let’s take a look at Mother Teresa.

1. She said that what was important was that a “Muslim be a good Musim, a Jew be a good Jew, a Catholic be a good Catholic and a Hindu a good Hindu.”
2. She prayed in mosques with Muslims and in Hindu temples with Hindus.
3. She accepted money that had bee stolen, which she found out about after the fact, but never offered to return it

Let’s take a look at St. Francis of Assisi

1. He gave away the missal of the friary to be sold for food for a family that was hungry
2. He forbade the Capuchin friars from using Gregorian chant in mass or the Divien Office
3. He introduced pageants into the mass, such as the nativity pageant
4. He declined the Pope’s offer to ordain him a priest. He remained a lay brother, but retained his title as Father Francis and his office as Superior General over a community of lay and clerics, which had never been done in the Church.
5. He forbade the Capuchins from preaching in Latin
6. He introduced popular Italian music and wrote poetry to be used in the liturgy of his friaries.

Let’s look at Benedict XVI

1. He gave communion to Tony Blair while he was still Anglican.
2. He gave communion to Brother Roger of Taize, even though Br. Roger was Lutheran
3. When Blair was received into the Catholic Church he did not require that Blair recant his pro abortion and pro same sex marriage position.
4. He said that this was a matter of charity and that Blair’s faith needs more development.
5. In meeting with the Iranian Muslims this week he said that “faith and reason must go hand in hand,” something that many people have difficulty with.
6. He agreed that Islam and Christianity have been gifted with reason and that reason is never in error.

Anyone of us can find fault in one or more of these actions. But when push comes to shove, the hierarchy looks at the soul. That’s how St. Francis was canonized without an inquiry into his holines and declared the Mirror of Perfection at his canonization. Mother Teresa was beatified and the postulator for her cause has stated that when she is finally canonized she will most likely be the greatest mystic in the history of the Church. As to Benedict XVI, most Catholics recognize him as a holy man and a great intellect.

When John Paul’s time comes for beatification, it is his holiness that the Church will examine. His actions will be examined only to determine if they are contrary to the faith. If they are simply disagreable to some or many, but do not deny the faith materially or intentionally, there is not culpability of sin.

Saints are not perfect. They are holy. That’s the big difference. Those of us who witness events and actions that we find unorthodox, must never judge the motive. Only God can see motives.

As we look at the writings by John Paul and about John Paul, we don’t find anything that is heretical or gravely sinful. These writings are scrutinized by the committee that studies a person’s life for canonization.

Even Benedict XVI continuously refers to John Paul as John Paul The Great. He is waiting for the five-year period to be up to begin the process for Beatification.

In the end, what we have to look at is what does this man’s life teach me about becoming holy. Let’s not waste valuable time and energy on analyzing someone else’s holiness or actions and spend more time on becoming holy. We do not become saints vicariously. We become saints by our own actions and our own motives. This should be the focus when we study the life of a person.

JR

 

[anamchara]

quote=stmaria;3639766]But to pray that Islam, a false anti-christian religion, be protected is going too far

.

Islam is not anti-Christain. One of Islam’s tenets is to be tolerant of other religions. And they especially respect “people of the book” that would be the Jewish people and Christains. Each faith traces it’s lineage to Abraham.

These actions create the impression that all religions are equal. That all religions are to be praised.

Oh NO! We don’t want that What rubbish.

**PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS **ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907
14.“How far this position is removed from that of Catholic teaching! We have already seen how its fallacies have been condemned by the Vatican Council. Later on, we shall see how these errors, combined with those which we have already mentioned, open wide the way to Atheism. Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true”

*I find it ironic. You state,that not everything a Pope says is infallible, yet you are so quick to quote Popes before Vatican II. How convenient, it must be nice to pick and choose down that cafeteria line.

When will you people ever learn that the Church is not going to turn the clocks back for you. Stop making the Church into a big bully. It’s not going to happen.

My quote for the month!

Consider this final quote from the Second Vatican Council, Guadium et Spes no. 28:

Respect and love ought to be extended also to those who think or act differently than we do in social, political and even religious matters.** In fact, the more deeply we come to understand their ways of thinking through such courtesy and love, the more easily will we be able to enter into dialogue with them.**

It’s called being reaonable. The Church does not hold your views. You might want to re-consider what you are writing.

 

[jam070406]

.

Islam is not anti-Christain. One of Islam’s tenets is to be tolerant of other religions. And they especially respect “people of the book” that would be the Jewish people and Christains. Each faith traces it’s lineage to Abraham.

Oh NO! We don’t want that What rubbish.
*

*I find it ironic. You state,that not everything a Pope says is infallible, yet you are so quick to quote Popes before Vatican II. How convenient, it must be nice to pick and choose down that cafeteria line.

When will you people ever learn that the Church is not going to turn the clocks back for you. Stop making the Church into a big bully. It’s not going to happen.

My quote for the month!

It’s called being reaonable. The Church does not hold your views. You might want to re-consider what you are writing.

What’s rubbish??? Do you believe that all religions are equal and lead to salvation?
Do you also deny the Word of God?

1 John 2

22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.

1 John 4

3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

 

[ProVobis]

.
When will you people ever learn that the Church is not going to turn the clocks back for you.

Not a bad idea. I dislike Standard time (in the fall) anyway.

 

[JReducation]

.

Islam is not anti-Christain. One of Islam’s tenets is to be tolerant of other religions. And they especially respect “people of the book” that would be the Jewish people and Christains. Each faith traces it’s lineage to Abraham.

The Quran contains one of the most beautiful and accurate portrayals of Mary’s holiness. There is an entire book of the Quran dedicated to Miriam of Nazareth.

Oh NO! We don’t want that What rubbish.

Francis of Assisi commissioned the friars to Palestine to minister to the Jews, Muslims and Christians in the Holy Land. He ordered them to preach without words. They were not to try to convert the Muslims or the Jews by preaching, but by their life of poverty, prayer, community, penance and charity.

St. Pius X asked the Superior General of the Franciscan Friars to found a separate jurisdiction of Friars who would be permanently committed to serving the spiritual and material needs of the people of the Holy Land without distinction. He asked that they remain faithful to the words of St. Francis. They are to teach the faith to the Christians and any other who ask for instruction in the faith; but they are not to engage in conflict with Muslims or Jews. They are to preach Christ to Muslims and Jews through their community life.

Today, the friars run more than 40 Terra Sancta Schools in the Holy Land where all children of any faith are educated, even those who cannot pay. They also have a Franciscan Centre on family life in the middle of Jerusalem.

The new jurisdiction is called the Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land. Their headquarters are in Washington DC.

There is a difference between respect and charity and saying that all religions are the same.

Both Pius X, John Paul II and the Patriarch Athaganoras were against Catholic prozelitism in the name of relgion.

Benedict XVI just finished another round of talks with Muslim leaders, this time from Iran. Today’s Catholic press just reported that the Holy Father was very happy, because they had reached an agreement that faith and reason cannot be separated and that reason cannot err.

This may seem unimportant, but it is not. It’s a major agreement between Islam and Catholicism. This means that they can now begin to look at what the two faiths have in common through the eys of reason, since they both agree that reason cannot err. Therefore, there is progress to be celebrated.

[/qipte]I find it ironic. You state,that not everything a Pope says is infallible, yet you are so quick to quote Popes before Vatican II. How convenient, it must be nice to pick and choose down that cafeteria line.

I don’t know if it’s ironic, but it certainly is incomplete. You are right. We must look at the Church’s position on these issues up to the present. We cannot draw an imaginary timeline and disregard whatever comes before or after.

When will you people ever learn that the Church is not going to turn the clocks back for you. Stop making the Church into a big bully. It’s not going to happen.

Crisis always forces us to look at our roots. However, when looking at our roots we do so to make certain that we are still on tract, not because we want to remain in the past. Jesus always referred to the OT teachings, but did not entertain the idea of remaining stuck in the past, but in fulfilling what was fortold in the OT.

Today, the Church also looks back as a point of reference so that it can go forward. It may bring back some things that have been forgotten and should not have been forgotten. It will also attempt to restate what was stated in the past, using language that is clearer for us today. It may also review what was said in the past and add to it base on developments in theological thought or science. The bottom line is that we’re not going anywhere but forward.

In the end, the essential question is the question that St. Maximilian Kolbe asked the Blessed Mother, “What will become of me?” All of these other questions are irrelevant when it comes to our individual salvation. St. Maximilian Kolbe learned this from his spiritual father, St. Francis.

As Ana has cleverly said, the Church does not have to hold our views. We have to hold hers. Our holiness depends on supporting the mission of the Church and living in communion with the Church.

JR

 

[anamchara]

What’s rubbish??? Do you believe that all religions are equal and lead to salvation?
Do you also deny the Word of God?

1 John 2

22 Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.

1 John 4

3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

It’s none of your blasted bussiness what my views on salvation are. I follow what the catechism teachings on salvation. Do you? Most tradtionlists don’t. Infact most hate the word seperate brethen. It drives them nuts. I have no patience for this narrow-minded thinking.

My problem is the bad logic of assuming that if the Pope kisses the Quran (sp) it’s going to make everyone believe all religions are equal. That is rubbish!

And please don’t throw scripture out like some sort of fundamentlists.

 

[JReducation]

What’s rubbish??? Do you believe that all religions are equal and lead to salvation?

No one believes that all religions are the same. However, the Catholic Church teaches that the “spirit of Christ uses these other ecclesial communities as a means of salvation” and “they have not been deprived of the Holy Spirit.”

We cannot format the teachings of the Church to fit our idea of truth. Even in the case where a previous pope said something that may sound different, we must remember that popes do not hold their successors prisoners to their decrees. There is always the opennes to the possibility that a future pope may see something that the current pope may have missed.

Many people here subscribe vehemently to the teachings of Pius V, IX, X and so forth and want to disregard John XXIII, Pau VI and John Paul II.

Nothing would be further from the mind of the saintly list of popes named Pius. They would be horrified to know that the laity has taken it upon themselves to disobery, disregard and challenge the teachings of the popes without the authority of a council of bishops.

The reason these popes became saints was not their encyclicals. Many popes have issued enclycals. What made them saints was their life of prayer, conversion, faith in Jesus Christ, communion with the Apostles, charity and most of all reliance on God’s mercy.

Do you also deny the Word of God?

The only authoritative interpretation of the Word of God comes from thoe who are ordained to preach it, not the laity.

Fundamentalists also quote it, but that does not mean that they have the authority or the education to interpret it correctly, much less apply it correctly.

Interpretation of the Word of God for personal use is one thing. You can do that.

Interpretation of the Word of God for public use is the role of those in Holy Orders or those who are official theologians of the Church. When you apply it for public use, you must use the interpretation that the Church gives it.

JR

 

[anamchara]

The Quran contains one of the most beautiful and accurate portrayals of Mary’s holiness. There is an entire book of the Quran dedicated to Miriam of Nazareth.

This what I understand as well although I have not read Quran myself.

Francis of Assisi commissioned the friars to Palestine to minister to the Jews, Muslims and Christians in the Holy Land. He ordered them to preach without words. They were not to try to convert the Muslims or the Jews by preaching, but by their life of poverty, prayer, community, penance and charity.

 

[JReducation]

Here is a piece of what the Quran says about Mary and Jesus. The translation is very literal and doesn’t flow as smoothly as our version of the Gospels, but it’s interesting that the message is very similar.

[19.16] And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;
[19.17] So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.
[19.18] She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent God, if you are one guarding (against evil).
[19.19] He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.
[19.20] She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?[19.21] He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.[19.22] So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Luke tells us that Mary and Joseph fled into Egypt.

[19.27] And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing.
[19.28] O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman.
[19.29] But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?
[19.30] He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;
[19.31] And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;
[19.32] And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;

Jesus refers to himself and his mother as not being unblessed. There is a proclamation here of the blessedness of mother and son.

[19.33] And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

The end of this passage is very interesting, because it sums up the life of Christ, incarnation, life, death and resurrection.

I believe it is important that we study and read carefully before we condemn the good with the bad.

JR

 

[stmaria]

=anamchara;3639965].

Islam is not anti-Christain. One of Islam’s tenets is to be tolerant of other religions. And they especially respect “people of the book” that would be the Jewish people and Christains. Each faith traces it’s lineage to Abraham.

Islam is anti-Christian because it denies the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the resurrection.

I find it ironic. You state,that not everything a Pope says is infallible, yet you are so quick to quote Popes before Vatican II. How convenient, it must be nice to pick and choose down that cafeteria line.

I am not picking and choosing. When Pope Benedict speaks to the press his words are not infallible. When he speaks to the United Nations his words are not infallible. An encyclical on faith and morals that is in union with Traditional teaching. Yes.

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

By the way the article is stupid in many ways. I could easily write a screwtape letter for the opposite side of the spectrum. For 2000 years no Pope did what JPII did at Assisi. Not the great Popes of PIUs XII, PIus X, Pius XI, Pius IX, Pius V, Blessed Innocent XI, Benedict XV, not even Blessed John XXIII. O ya right John Paul got it right!!! He saw the wisdom and no one else did.

Weren’t you just raving on another thread about how great JPII was?

 

[jam070406]

Here is a piece of what the Quran says about Mary and Jesus. The translation is very literal and doesn’t flow as smoothly as our version of the Gospels, but it’s interesting that the message is very similar.

[19.16] And mention Marium in the Book when she drew aside from her family to an eastern place;
[19.17] So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.
[19.18] She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent God, if you are one guarding (against evil).
[19.19] He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.
[19.20] She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?[19.21] He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.[19.22] So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Luke tells us that Mary and Joseph fled into Egypt.

[19.27] And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said: O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing.
[19.28] O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman.
[19.29] But she pointed to him. They said: How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?
[19.30] He said: Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;
[19.31] And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;
[19.32] And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;

Jesus refers to himself and his mother as not being unblessed. There is a proclamation here of the blessedness of mother and son.

[19.33] And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

The end of this passage is very interesting, because it sums up the life of Christ, incarnation, life, death and resurrection.

I believe it is important that we study and read carefully before we condemn the good with the bad.

JR

Your veneration of heresy disappoints me JR.

 

[jam070406]

It’s none of your blasted bussiness what my views on salvation are. I follow what the catechism teachings on salvation. Do you? Most tradtionlists don’t. Infact most hate the word seperate brethen. It drives them nuts. I have no patience for this narrow-minded thinking.

My problem is the bad logic of assuming that if the Pope kisses the Quran (sp) it’s going to make everyone believe all religions are equal. That is rubbish!

And please don’t throw scripture out like some sort of fundamentlists.

Were all the martyrs that suffered death by the Islamic sword because they wouldn’t convert narrow-minded?
How about all the slaughtered Orthodox Christians?

I couldn’t care less what you have patience for. You don’t know me and you are not my judge.
Btw,
I’ll quote scripture whenever I darn well feel like it thank you very much.