Letter from the Devil on the Assisi gatherings

[JReducation]

Your veneration of heresy disappoints me JR.

Give me a break!

What heresy am I venerating?

If the Quran has something good to say that is the same as what we believe, what is wrong is acknowledging that?

They say that Mary was a virgin and that she conceived by the power of God. Where is the heresy.

Without realizing it they make reference to Christ’s divinity and Mary’s blessedness. Where is the heresy in that?

They speak about Mary in a very respectful way. Where is the heresy in that?

I think you’re looking for something that’s not there or you’re not open to the fact that Truth remains Truth no matter who says it.

I don’t have to venerate the Quran to recognize that this part is very consistent with our own treatment of Mary.

If you read the whole chapter, there is more honour paid to her.

What is wrong with that?

You’re upset because Muslims pay tribute to Mary?

Too bad. They do, so get over it.

They also pay tribute to Abraham and Moses.

Sometimes we have to work at finding the holiness within us, in order to recognize that there may be some holiness in those who are different from us, even those who are of different faiths.

Recognizing that others have something in common with us is not a veneration of heresy.

If it disappoints you, you’ll just have to get over it. As long as God is OK with it, then I’m OK with it.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

Your veneration of heresy disappoints me JR.

How did you get that from his post? Veneration of heresy?

JR was showing us some of the things that Islam teaches that are the same truths that abide in our own faith, this example being the Virgin Birth and Christ’s proclamation of his life, death and resurrection.

Truth is truth, period.

He is not saying that all things Islamic are truth, but that there are bridges between us that we can use to reach out to them.

Maybe you prefer the bat over the head approach?

 

[jam070406]

Give me a break!

What heresy am I venerating?

If the Quran has something good to say that is the same as what we believe, what is wrong is acknowledging that?

They say that Mary was a virgin and that she conceived by the power of God. Where is the heresy.

Without realizing it they make reference to Christ’s divinity and Mary’s blessedness. Where is the heresy in that?

They speak about Mary in a very respectful way. Where is the heresy in that?

I think you’re looking for something that’s not there or you’re not open to the fact that Truth remains Truth no matter who says it.

I don’t have to venerate the Quran to recognize that this part is very consistent with our own treatment of Mary.

If you read the whole chapter, there is more honour paid to her.

What is wrong with that?

You’re upset because Muslims pay tribute to Mary?

Too bad. They do, so get over it.

They also pay tribute to Abraham and Moses.

Sometimes we have to work at finding the holiness within us, in order to recognize that there may be some holiness in those who are different from us, even those who are of different faiths.

Recognizing that others have something in common with us is not a veneration of heresy.

If it disappoints you, you’ll just have to get over it. As long as God is OK with it, then I’m OK with it.

JR

Ok, you can kiss the Quran. I will not.

 

[jam070406]

How did you get that from his post? Veneration of heresy?

JR was showing us some of the things that Islam teaches that are the same truths that abide in our own faith, this example being the Virgin Birth and Christ’s proclamation of his life, death and resurrection.

Truth is truth, period.

He is not saying that all things Islamic are truth, but that there are bridges between us that we can use to reach out to them.

Maybe you prefer the bat over the head approach?

Perhaps JR should’ve been there to talk sense into Pope Pius V to stop the battle of Lepanto.

 

[JReducation]

Ok, you can kiss the Quran. I will not.

By the sound of your posts I’d rather be in the company of Pope John Paul II than yours. I’ve got more centainty of being closer to charity and open to truth where ever it may be found.

JR

 

[Jeanette_L]

Perhaps JR should’ve been there to talk sense into Pope Pius V to stop the battle of Lepanto.

Obviously wasn’t part of God’s plan…:ehh:

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

By the sound of your posts I’d rather be in the company of Pope John Paul II than yours. I’ve got more centainty of being closer to charity and open to truth where ever it may be found.

JR

Heck, I’d rather be in company with (gasp!) a Muslim! Or even a Jew
Did what JR said about St. Pius X’s command to the Franciscans in the Holy Land mean nothing to any of the self-styled followers of St. Pius X on this thread? Quite honestly, he’d have been much tougher on the SSPX schismatics than JPII and B16 have been. The supreme irony is that the latter two Popes’ discretion and gentleness in dealing with them is due to what one might call the “Spirit of Vatican II.”

And by the way, I’m still waiting for someone to refute any one of JR’s posts. I recall someone claiming that nearly everything he has said on other threads has been refuted, but I am starting to have my doubts because he’s got all of us beat on this one. He certainly knows more about the saints that everyone here claims to venerate.

 

[jam070406]

By the sound of your posts I’d rather be in the company of Pope John Paul II than yours. I’ve got more centainty of being closer to charity and open to truth where ever it may be found.

JR

JR, I’ve only expressed my opinion that JPII kissing the quran was a bad move. And Islam is a false religion. You obviously don’t agree and have your opinion. So be it. What Truth am I missing? I understand your point that grains of truth can be a means of dialogue. But a false book is still a false book NOT to be venerated. The goal of dialogue should be for conversion to the One Holy Catholic Church, no? Or do you not agree with that either?

 

[JReducation]

Perhaps JR should’ve been there to talk sense into Pope Pius V to stop the battle of Lepanto.

I grew up Orthodox Jew. If anyone has a gripe against Muslims it’s Orthodox Jews. Even we’re smart enough to recognize our own beliefs when we find them in other faiths.

If you want to hold on to the Battle of Lepanto, maybe every Jew in the world should remember every Christian who served in Hitler’s army, including Pope Benedict XVI, regardless of the circumstances.

If you’re going to get that black and white about it. You need to open up your mind and heart. Read something through and see what truth you can find in it and what explanations who can find for people’s beliefs.

You don’t have to accept their beliefs. But if you understand them, you may have a better chance at treating them with charity and bringing them closer to the Lord.

If you hold on to a grudge for hundreds of years, there never will be peace or unity of any kind.

Let’s not forget what the Holy Father just said about Islam this very week. He is happy that they and the Catholic Church agree on reason and that reason cannot err.

Let’s immitate our Holy Father and open our minds to the possibility that we can build a better world using reason.

Reason says that if they say something that we also believe, we acknowledge it, not dismiss it because THEY said it. That’s not using reason. That’s not even common sense.

Look at the good work that the Franciscan Custory of the Holy Land has accomplished bringing Jews, Christians and Muslims together. It’s not a solution to the problems, but it’s the beginning. It’s serving to have both sides look at Catholicism with different eyes, more trusting eyes.

Why? Because the friars are there as brothers to all three populations. They preach by the life and by their work. They show respect for the truths that they see in Judaism and Islam. The result has been that neither the Jews nor the Muslims in the Palestinian regioin have ever hurt a Franciscan Friar and they are welcome to be there. They are very much loved and respected.

Little by little they have had some converts. Some have even become friars.

It all begins with one drop of respect, another drop of honesty in recognizing common believes and a large dose of charity.

They there at the request of Pius V and later Pius X again.

They are not the only ones.

Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity pray with Hindus and Muslims all the time. They were taught this by Mother herself. She now a Blessed. Are you going to say that she was a heretic or that she venerated heresy, but slipped past the Church’s scrutiny on her way to sainthood?

That would be very silly. Don’t you think?

JR

 

[jam070406]

I grew up Orthodox Jew. If anyone has a gripe against Muslims it’s Orthodox Jews. Even we’re smart enough to recognize our own beliefs when we find them in other faiths.

If you want to hold on to the Battle of Lepanto, maybe every Jew in the world should remember every Christian who served in Hitler’s army, including Pope Benedict XVI, regardless of the circumstances.

If you’re going to get that black and white about it. You need to open up your mind and heart. Read something through and see what truth you can find in it and what explanations who can find for people’s beliefs.

You don’t have to accept their beliefs. But if you understand them, you may have a better chance at treating them with charity and bringing them closer to the Lord.

If you hold on to a grudge for hundreds of years, there never will be peace or unity of any kind.

Let’s not forget what the Holy Father just said about Islam this very week. He is happy that they and the Catholic Church agree on reason and that reason cannot err.

Let’s immitate our Holy Father and open our minds to the possibility that we can build a better world using reason.

Reason says that if they say something that we also believe, we acknowledge it, not dismiss it because THEY said it. That’s not using reason. That’s not even common sense.

Look at the good work that the Franciscan Custory of the Holy Land has accomplished bringing Jews, Christians and Muslims together. It’s not a solution to the problems, but it’s the beginning. It’s serving to have both sides look at Catholicism with different eyes, more trusting eyes.

Why? Because the friars are there as brothers to all three populations. They preach by the life and by their work. They show respect for the truths that they see in Judaism and Islam. The result has been that neither the Jews nor the Muslims in the Palestinian regioin have ever hurt a Franciscan Friar and they are welcome to be there. They are very much loved and respected.

Little by little they have had some converts. Some have even become friars.

It all begins with one drop of respect, another drop of honesty in recognizing common believes and a large dose of charity.

They there at the request of Pius V and later Pius X again.

They are not the only ones.

Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity pray with Hindus and Muslims all the time. They were taught this by Mother herself. She now a Blessed. Are you going to say that she was a heretic or that she venerated heresy, but slipped past the Church’s scrutiny on her way to sainthood?

That would be very silly. Don’t you think?

JR

JR,
I’m sorry if I have offended you in anyway. I truly am. I may have said a few things out of emotion. I appreciate your knowledge. And ask for your forgiveness. But I will not continue this. It’s not worth Catholics insulting other Catholics.
Good night and God bless.

 

[JReducation]

JR, I’ve only expressed my opinion that JPII kissing the quran was a bad move. And Islam is a false religion. You obviously don’t agree and have your opinion. So be it. What Truth am I missing? I understand your point that grains of truth can be a means of dialogue. But a false book is still a false book NOT to be venerated. The goal of dialogue should be for conversion to the One Holy Catholic Church, no? Or do you not agree with that either?

You need to read his memoirs. He explains what he finds in the Quran that is venerable. You’ll be inspired by his mystical insight.

His memoirs are available now.

I don’t think that he expected everyone to agree with him. That was not the point. He was acting out of his own mysticism. Many mystics do things that the rest of us consider to be unorthodox and sometimes they are, but they are not materially sinful.

You accuse me of venerating heresy, that’s a little too much. That was a judgemental statement.

I was just pointing out that there are part of of the same truths that we believe in the Quran. That’s a far cry from venerating heresy.

I am very well verse in what is and is not heresy. The part that I cited is not heresy.

You can take this to the bank, when an Orthodox Jew becomes a Catholic, as is my case and tells you that he finds elements in Islam that are compatible with Judaism and Christianity, you should pay more attention. It is rare that you will find Orthodox Jews becoming Catholics, much less recognizing any speck of truth in Islam.

The hatred between the two people goes back so far that they can’t even remember why they hate each other.

JR

 

[JReducation]

JR,
I’m sorry if I have offended you in anyway. I truly am. I may have said a few things out of emotion. I appreciate your knowledge. And ask for your forgiveness. But I will not continue this. It’s not worth Catholics insulting other Catholics.
Good night and God bless.

I too apologize if I stepped over the line. I should not have done so. I’m sorry, very sorry.

I also apologize to the other posters if they were offended.

JR

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

JR,
I’m sorry if I have offended you in anyway. I truly am. I may have said a few things out of emotion. I appreciate your knowledge. And ask for your forgiveness. But I will not continue this. It’s not worth Catholics insulting other Catholics.
Good night and God bless.

jam has a good point. I think at this point we need to agree to disagree, and recognize the fact that this sometimes happens even when people on both sides of the disagreement are acting and speaking in good faith. One of Aquinas’ detractors (the name escapes me at the moment) called him a “heretic of heretics” because he invoked the pagan Aristotle. And yet both Aquinas and his critic eventually became Saints.

For the moment, let’s all take a deep breath and remember that we are believers in the same Faith, members of the same Body, travelers on the same journey. And what a marvelous journey it is!

 

[JReducation]

jam has a good point. I think at this point we need to agree to disagree, and recognize the fact that this sometimes happens even when people on both sides of the disagreement are acting and speaking in good faith. One of Aquinas’ detractors (the name escapes me at the moment) called him a “heretic of heretics” because he invoked the pagan Aristotle. And yet both Aquinas and his critic eventually became Saints.

For the moment, let’s all take a deep breath and remember that we are believers in the same Faith, members of the same Body, travelers on the same journey. And what a marvelous journey it is!

That was Bonaventure. Both became saints and Doctors of the Church. The argument was whether faith is from the heart of the intellect.

Bonaventure argued the heart and Aquinas argued the intellect.

It turned out that both were saying the same thing, but calling it different names.

In the end it was settled by Robert Bellarmine, who said that faith was a gift of God to which the heart and mind must give consent.

JR

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

That was Bonaventure. Both became saints and Doctors of the Church. The argument was whether faith is from the heart of the intellect.

Bonaventure argued the heart and Aquinas argued the intellect.

It turned out that both were saying the same thing, but calling it different names.

In the end it was settled by Robert Bellarmine, who said that faith was a gift of God to which the heart and mind must give consent.

JR

Thanks. I knew it was one of the more prominent ones, but I couldn’t for the life of me remember, and Google proved no help (where’s St. Anthony when you need him???)

Funny how things worked out there, isn’t it? I’m sort of chuckling at my computer imagining their reunion in Heaven. Must have been interesting!

But the point is that saints disagree sometimes, and saints are even wrong sometimes. JPII and Bishop Oscar Romero never understood each other, and yet both will likely be canonized soon. And you are right, none of this makes any of them less saintly. What determines the fate of one’s immortal soul is whether or not he or she acted out of a sincere love for God and love for neighbor. Christ gave us these two commandments; what else do we need?

 

[Tsuwano]

One could even say that St. Pius X, by refusing to speak to Theodore Roosevelt, passed up what could have been a valuable opportunity to share the True Faith! Would you prefer it if John Paul II hadn’t even tried to show these non-believers the beauty and goodness of the Catholic Faith?

Good point. No one ever came to know the Lord because Christians ignored them.

 

[anamchara]

Were all the martyrs that suffered death by the Islamic sword because they wouldn’t convert narrow-minded?
How about all the slaughtered Orthodox Christians?

I couldn’t care less what you have patience for. You don’t know me and you are not my judge.
Btw,
I’ll quote scripture whenever I darn well feel like it thank you very much.

You took a big leap there to try and twist my words. Nice try. I was referring to the narrow-minded thinking of many traditionalists on this forum. I was replying to St.Maria and you jumped in, took my words and ran with them. I don’t think so.

Those martyrs who died for our faith have nothing to do with the bad logic and rubbish I often read in this forum. I wasn’t asking you to care about what I have patience for. I gave my opinion because you posted to me. You don’t like what I have to say then put me on ignore. It’s very simple.

 

[Calv]

Seems to be a heated debate… I must say as a fellow history major, I obviously side with the clear teachings of the Church prior to the desasterous Vatican II promulgation on religious liberty… hence we see in our present day the attitude of… whats good for you is good for you and whats good for me is good for me! There is but one God, There is but ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH!

the results within the post concilliar church have more than proven that a wrong route was taken.I am 21 years old and never have I been happier about my faith once I made the decision to return to tradition, The concilliar church, and its ‘meet and greet’ and pray to your God while I pray to mine, events with heretics shcismatics and pagans are simply a complete and definite sign that something is wrong.

By the way, pre Vat II the number of converts was dramaticaly higher as compared to the pitiful amuont it is today.

EXTRA ECLLESIA NULLUS SALUS!

basta!

 

[Graing]

You took a big leap there to try and twist my words. Nice try. I was referring to the narrow-minded thinking of many traditionalists on this forum. I was replying to St.Maria and you jumped in, took my words and ran with them. I don’t think so.

Those martyrs who died for our faith have nothing to do with the bad logic and rubbish I often read in this forum. I wasn’t asking you to care about what I have patience for. I gave my opinion because you posted to me. You don’t like what I have to say then put me on ignore. It’s very simple.

Anamchara, from reading several of your posts on this thread - I think you have reversed the quote in your signature

JR

Here a few more quotes from the Koran:

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.

“I’m ok, you’re ok” and moral relativism isn’t going to save any souls. One can be kind and gentle and at the same time preach the salvation of Christ through the Church that He established. If you are afraid to tell people that His Church is the path to salvation, and would rather make people ‘feel’ better by saying “I’m ok, you’re ok”, I don’t think you’re helping anyone with salvation.

Dustin’s Dad, must be very frustrating that people won’t address your posts simply because they are sound, logical and full of truth.

 

[DustinsDad]

…a few more quotes from the Koran:

But wait - there’s more. “4.171”: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
“5.73”: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/HolKora.html

These Islamic beliefs condemn a soul to hell for all eternity. A soul Our Lord died on the cross to save. Hell exists. Hell is real. Those who deny Christ go there. And even if meant well, giving even the impression that we can somehow reject Christ and “make it” into heaven can only result in disaster for who knows how many number of souls.

What’s that old saying…“the road to hell is paved with _________.”

…Dustin’s Dad, must be very frustrating that people won’t address your posts simply because they are sound, logical and full of truth. …

Very much so. But I have to admit looking on the bright side…I must be doing something right. …When an adversary rises up against them with an erudition and force that renders them redoubtable, they seek to make a conspiracy of silence around him to nullify the effects of his attack.
(Pope St. Pius X, Pascendi, cf 42.)

But you know, it’s not me. I’m just a little insignificant sinner in the pew trying to make it to heaven by God’s grace. The words that put these folks “into a corner” aren’t mine - they are the timeless words of Holy Mother Church Herself.

Scary stuff, because I suspect there’s a fine line between being innocently influenced by the erroneous and deceitful “Spirit of Vatican II”, and becoming a full-fledged and* willing* part of the erroneous and deceitful “Spirit of Vatican II.”

The Lord knows. He’ll sort all that out one way or the other, and sooner or later. We just gotta keep speaking the Truth in the meantime.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad