Letter Indicates Former Pope Knew of Abuse

  • Thread starter Thread starter canadianguy1143
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You make some interesting points but regardless of the age of the victims, the offending priests were also in positions of authority (similarly to teachers), so it was also a violation of trust (not to mention a breaking of civil and church law) so there’s no re-definition of their acts that will make them appear less grievous.

Deferential treatment for priests who live their vocation honorably is one thing; these offenders deserve nothing more than common criminals - actually the argument could be made that since they bound themselves by higher standards, they deserve less. Sinning or committing a crime is one thing; spending your life in that behavior with no show of real repentance is a whole nuther kettle of fish…
Many of these men DID make a show of penitence. And of course the issue of trust is paramount. They deserved to DIE as a matter of fact. Bu–and it’s a big BUT. Men in ever station in life abuse their trust. We had a president who abused his trust in almost the same way. But we had a whole nation letting him get away with it. So why the rage about the priests?
 
In reply to NEWCATHOLICJEFF

I forgot to include the Masons on that list. I see they’re the latest group to be blamed. And if an organisation is so big that it creates such problems from its sheer size, maybe it’s too big to continue in its current form without re-organisation and re-structuring, delegating authority downwards. The current situation isn’t acceptable, but I’m open to any alternative that preserves the Church while fixing the problem.

Exactly. When a group blames the Jews, the Gays, the Masons, and pretty much anyone except themselves for reporting on some heinous crimes they’re apparently guilty of… are they doing it to prevent character assassination generally? To prevent injustice? For Financial Gain - since these scandals have bankrupted several diocese already? In order to vilify their traditional opponents - Jews, Gays, Masons? Or to cover up their own sordid misdeeds?
You don’t get it. The Church is not organized like General Electric. A diocese is not a regional office of The federal government. A parish is not like a branch of Wells Fargo.
The basic problem is trying to hold together what keeps flying apart. Look at the history of the Church. The papacy developed out of a need to resolve issues that separated Christians. The Eastern churches broke with the papacy and the result has been a permanent division into national church which are unable to hold anything like a general council to help patch things up. The Reformation broke with Rome, and we see the movement splintering to a thousand small sects. Even “Catholic” countries pulled away from Rome. We see the Church in France and the Church in Austria claiming autonomy, nestlingly under the wings of the secular thrones. The French Revolution shattered Catholic Europe, leading eventually to Vatican I and the resurgence of Roman authority
under Leo XIII. But nationalism retained its pulls and Vatican II gave it its head.
No, the pope is not in charge of this thing. He is trying to hold onto the reins of a largely runnaway team.
 
I’ve said that for years!!!

What is more shocking is that Catholics who are just as gullible.
I have been complaining about this in other threads…Catholics who are jumping on the bandwagon, when the Media has become completely untrustworthy. If the Media is promoting the secular progressive agenda, and only reporting what they want to in this regard, why would they treat the Catholic Church any differently?:confused:
 
Why weren’t the priests quilty of crimes against minors prosecuted under canon law and then charged with criminal offence. This would have been a deterence right from the start.
 
Many of these men DID make a show of penitence. And of course the issue of trust is paramount. They deserved to DIE as a matter of fact. Bu–and it’s a big BUT. Men in ever station in life abuse their trust. We had a president who abused his trust in almost the same way. But we had a whole nation letting him get away with it. So why the rage about the priests?
Are you even half-serious? Not sure which president you are referring to (not aware there was one guilty of pedophilia). Even if there were, a president is a secular leader and not the one most people look to for spiritual guidance. This would be more comparable to a president committing treason or war crimes - breaking the trust ***over the role he was put there to perform. ***

As for shows of penitence, I don’t know the state of their hearts but hopefully that penitence was accompanied by accepting the legal repercussions of their actions and making amends to their victims.
 
Are you even half-serious? Not sure which president you are referring to (not aware there was one guilty of pedophilia). Even if there were, a president is a secular leader and not the one most people look to for spiritual guidance. This would be more comparable to a president committing treason or war crimes - breaking the trust ***over the role he was put there to perform. ***

As for shows of penitence, I don’t know the state of their hearts but hopefully that penitence was accompanied by accepting the legal repercussions of their actions and making amends to their victims.
Really, you never heard of Bill Clinton having oral sex with a 22 year old young women in the Oval Office then lying through his teeth about the matter to a grand jury as well as to the public? As for the comparison with treason, no, That would be a priest like Hans Kueng who denies that Jesus physically rose from the dead and who makes money by publicizing his infidelity to Church doctrine.
 
Really, you never heard of Bill Clinton having oral sex with a 22 year old young women in the Oval Office then lying through his teeth about the matter to a grand jury as well as to the public?
I just find it amazing that you specify Bill Clinton as the example of a “breach of trust” when we have a more recent President, George W. Bush, who blantantly lied to this country about another country’s nuclear capabilities, and yet you give him a pass.
 
Really, you never heard of Bill Clinton having oral sex with a 22 year old young women in the Oval Office then lying through his teeth about the matter to a grand jury as well as to the public? As for the comparison with treason, no, That would be a priest like Hans Kueng who denies that Jesus physically rose from the dead and who makes money by publicizing his infidelity to Church doctrine.
What does that have to do with the price of eggs?

Are you seriously comparing a career politician’s consensual sexual activity (between adults) to pedophilia committed by someone bound by vows to God? This comparison fails miserably on so many levels it isn’t even funny.
 
Mother Angelica herself said, “There is a plan to destroy the Church, and if you don’t believe it, there’s something wrong with your thinking.”

I believe it. I believe her, not the secular, God-loathing media who seek to destroy the truth and harrow the believers in Jesus.
 
Mother Angelica herself said, “There is a plan to destroy the Church, and if you don’t believe it, there’s something wrong with your thinking.”

I believe it. I believe her, not the secular, God-loathing media who seek to destroy the truth and harrow the believers in Jesus.
There is gobs of objective evidence to support the best-publicized cases of abuse by priests and religious. This is the age of information. It’s very hard to keep anything a secret any longer.

And remember:

Luke 17:2: …“it would be better to tie a millstone around your neck, and be
cast into the sea, than to offend one of these little ones.”–who said that?
 
The documents that the NYT were able to get were analyzed by a group of Chaldea scholars. I’ve tried to paraphrase their findings since the article is too long.

We too will use these sources and would like to thank the New York Times for allowing us to prove that the y are distorting the truth. They are located on their website at

documents.nytimes.com/reverend-lawrence-c-murphy-abuse-case#document. We will reference these documents simply with a page number.

The Story:

The reported cover-up is in regards to a Fr. Lawrence Murphy of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee. Fr. Murphy served at St. John’s School for the Deaf from 1963 to 1974, during which time he later admitted to having sexually abused 19 boys (pg. 7), even though the media has concluded that it was more than 200. In the mid 1970s his victims complained to the police (pg. 1), but this did not result in a trial. As a result, the victims urged Church authorities to deal with the situation since the local authorities did nothing!

Murphy was removed from the school for the deaf and was given no further pastoral assignment (pgs. 2-3). He moved back to his family residence where he lived with his mother in another diocese. Except for occasional visits to his brother in Houston, he lived in this house for the rest of his life (pg. 29 last paragraph). He was never granted a pastoral assignment by the diocese of Superior, WI in which he was now living, but he occasionally said Mass at parishes and was used in some capacity at retreats for deaf people, due to his ability to communicate in sign language. There were no further allegations of sexual abuse against him.
In 1995, some of Murphy’s victims and their lawyers contacted the then-Archbishop of Milwaukee, Rembert Weakland, reporting Murphy’s actions from the 1970s. In December of 1995, Weakland ordered a preliminary investigation to determine whether the allegations had merit. It was concluded that they did. However, because the charges against Murphy included the abuse of the sacrament of confession, an offense that was (and is) reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Therefore Weakland wrote to Cardinal Ratzinger (today Pope Benedict) in July 1996 asking for guidance in how to proceed (pgs. 29-30).

This is where Pope Benedict, at the time known as Ratzinger, comes into the picture. It must be noted that back in 1996 this congregation in Rome did not have a mandate to handle cases of sexual abuse by priests; it was left up to the local bishop. This is a crucial point! Though it does now, it received that mandate in 2001 five years after this case. Again, the reason that Weakland notified the Congregation was not because of the abuse of minors but because the abuse of the sacrament of confession was involved (pg. 29 last paragraph).

Weakland had not received a reply by October of 1996 and this is definitely a point to criticize this congregation at the time. Weakland, though, began preparations for a canonical trial of Murphy (pgs. 31-37). In February 1997 Murphy raised the point that his crimes were committed before the statute of limitations had run out, according to Church law. This caused Weakland to contact the Vatican with a request that the statute of limitations be waived so that the trial could proceed. He sent the request in March 1997 to the Vatican (pgs. 38-40), in which the reply came from the secretary of the congregation, (now Cardinal) Tarcisio Bertone after two weeks (pg. 41). So what did Bertone say in his reply to Weakland’s request for a waiver of the statute of limitations? He said for Weakland to continue the judicial process against Murphy, thus waiving the statute of limitations, he asked him to pay attention to other canons (Church laws) and to proceed with care. In other words, Bertone said, “Go ahead and prosecute, but just be careful!” Scarcely anything to fault Ratzinger for here or even Bertone but what is incredible is that the article from the New York Times flat out lied. Again, see for yourself on pgs. 41, 43 & 44 from the documents that the New York Times has placed on their website.

Continued next post
 
So things proceed with the potential church trial of Murphy until January 1998. The case then gets transferred to the Diocese of Superior, WI, in whose territory Murphy was residing. In this month, Fr. Murphy, the perpetrator, writes his own letter to the Congregation, the same congregation (pgs. 54-55), while deathly ill. He addressed it to Cardinal Ratzinger, and as you’d expect, Bishop Fliss of Superior (now handling the case) gets a reply from Bertone.
This is the crucial letter where people in the press want to find fault with Cardinal Ratzinger. The text of the Fr. Murphy letter itself has been distorted by the mainstream media quoting only a sound bite or two, but thanks again to the NYT’s putting the document online, you can read it for yourself and make your own judgments (pgs 57-58).

In the letter, Murphy asks the Congregation to declare the action of the diocese of Superior (to whom the case has been transferred) invalid because the statute of limitations had passed. The Congregation refuses to do so in Bertone’s reply. Note again that the congregation refused to invalidate the pending action of the diocese of Superior against Murphy. Therefore there is no ground of faulting Ratzinger here. Murphy also makes a mercy-based request to the Congregation not to be subjected to a trial at this point in his life. He writes:

“I am seventy-two years of age, your Eminence [Ratzinger], and I am in poor health. I have just recently suffered another stroke which has left me in a weakened state. I have followed all the directives of both Archbishop Cousins and now Archbishop Weakland. I have repented of any of my past transgressions, and have been living peaceably in northern Wisconsin for twenty-four years. I simply want to live out the time that I have left in the dignity of my priesthood.” (pg. 55)

So when the response came from Archbishop Bertone, what did it say? It did not prohibit the church trial. It didn’t say that this couldn’t be done. But it did hint at another path, saying:
“[T]his Congregation invites Your Excellency [Raphael Michael Fliss of Superior, WI] to give careful consideration to what canon 1341 proposes as pastoral measures destined to obtain the reparation of scandal and the restoration of justice” (pg. 58). Here’s what Canon 1341 says: “An ordinary [bishop] is to take care to initiate a judicial or administrative process to impose or declare penalties only after he has ascertained that fraternal correction or rebuke or other means of pastoral solicitude cannot sufficiently repair the scandal, restore justice, reform the offender.”

So Bertone urges bishop Fliss to heed what the Church Law says regarding when to use a judicial process. Note that Bertone doesn’t say Fliss can’t or shouldn’t go forward with the trial, but he just says think about this canon and if there is another way to resolve the matter (pg. 68).
In May Fliss concluded that the scandal in the deaf community was such that the trial needed to go forward (pgs. 60, 62-67). At the very end of the same month, he and Weakland were in Rome for their ad limina (periodic) visit, and they had a meeting with Bertone about the Murphy case. Ratzinger was not present. Bertone again did not say that the trial could not proceed. He pointed out certain canonical and practical difficulties it would involve, but he did not prohibit it. He further recommended that Murphy be examined by three psychiatrists, that he be assigned a spiritual director to keep tabs on him, that he be prohibited from doing anything with the deaf community, and that he be allowed to celebrate Mass only with permission given in writing by both Weakland and Fliss. By August 1998, Murphy died.

Sorry for the long post. I feel that they have done a good job.

PS. These are parts of the Chaldean Church’s E-newsletter that was e-mailed to me. But they did not give me a link. Sorry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I just find it amazing that you specify Bill Clinton as the example of a “breach of trust” when we have a more recent President, George W. Bush, who blantantly lied to this country about another country’s nuclear capabilities, and yet you give him a pass.
We are talking about sex, are we not. not your conjecture about what Bush Knew. But as long as you raise that sort of thing, did you know that Jack Kennedy knew that The Diem brothers were likely to be “taken out” after he gave the word for them to be deposed? His ambassador, Henry Cabot Lodge, did know, and that incident is what really led to our involvement in the war in a major way. Anyway, Madam Nhu knew that Kennedy died with that bloody deed conscience. I’ll never forget the way she looked straight into the live camera and implied that JFK had tasted what he had served. Of. course, we all know that Lyndon Johnson lied through his teeth about the incident in the Tonkin Gulf because he wanted a big victory in 1964. Sixty thousand died as a result of the perfidy of these presidents, so please be quiet. In Forty years you may know the truth one way or another.
 
We are talking about sex, are we not.
Not. We are talking about a specific and hideous type of abuse of authority involving children, namely pedophilia. Sexual deviancy may indeed have very little to do with sex at all and very much to do with power over the defenseless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top