Letter to Pope Francis from Catholic Men

[PetraG]

The Guardian link was only meant to show that Hillary Clinton had in fact denied that a sexual relationship between the President of the United States and an intern working at the White House was an abuse of power.
There are other sources; you don’t need to concern yourself with reading that one.

If anyone ever doubted that HRC could make a preposterous claim with a straight face, that one ought to remove all doubt. No one should pretend to wonder why she couldn’t defeat an opponent with monumental credibility problems. A lot of voters undoubtedly deemed that one a push in the practical sense of whether the President would be someone willing to doggedly lie to your face, and not without reason.

 

[pnewton]

Well, funny you should write, because it turns out that the Pope has been hearing complaints about how Catholic men are not getting the reputation of being a lot different than any other group of men in the US

I do not know how he would hear such complaints are from whom. This statement is presented as some fact without clarification. I would hope, even if there is truth to this, the Pope is better than painting all with a broad brush, or believing anyone who does.

 

[pnewton]

I also haven’t seen much by way of logic,…

What you have or have not seen may say more about you than the letter. I am not alone in pointing out problems with the initial letter of AB Vigano.

They should have written a collective analyses like pope Francis told them to do.

I wonder if it would have done any good. Too many judge what the read based on what they want to hear. You don’t read the Guardian. Others won’t read Breitbart. There are those who believe everything they read on the internet, and those who believe everything they don’t like is “fake news.”

 

[PetraG]

I do not know how he would hear such complaints are from whom. This statement is presented as some fact without clarification. I would hope, even if there is truth to this, the Pope is better than painting all with a broad brush, or believing anyone who does.

Jesuits, including the Holy Father, are not ignorant of #MeToo allegations against men educated in Catholic boys’ schools such as the Jesuits have founded:

I’m a Jesuit. How should I respond to toxic masculinity and #MeToo?

The victims of sexual harassment are fighting a culture that teaches men (even celibate men) a sense of privilege and entitlement.

www.americamagazine.org

So, yes, the complaints of the #MeToo movement have reached the Holy Father. No, Catholic men are not held up as some kind of paragons who are standing up against victimization through abuse of power or sexual objectification of women in their spheres of influence in the way that bishops have failed to do! Men in the US may have come farther as a group from the “machismo” culture the Holy Father has spoken out against, but I challenge you to provide evidence that Catholic men are leading the way.

If you think that Catholic men in the US have a reputation of standing up for women when women in their workplaces make the kind of claims that the seminarians made against McCarrick, well, think again. They don’t. They just don’t. Oh, please. If you believe that, please wake up. If the Catholic men who wrote that letter to the Holy Father really believe that "We desire nothing more than to become saints amidst scandal,” they need to back that up with some evidence. Where is it?

Look at the letter posted by @commenter.
Somehow, the women figured out how to write the Holy Father without that level of moral self-congratulation:
Letter to Pope Francis from Catholic Women - Catholic Womens Forum ](Letter to Pope Francis from Catholic Women - Catholic Womens Forum

When you make a comment like the men made about themselves in the letter they wrote to wag a finger at the Holy Father for his failures, you’d better be on some very high moral ground. No, Catholics in the US are not there. We can point to a lot of cautions given to our women to wear their hems down to there and their necklines up to there, but please tell me where our men are given such frequent admonitions not to stand by and tolerate it when other men, including men in power, objectify or violate the dignity of women. Include all the threads about it on CA forums. That will be the most convenient for you…right?

 

[adgloriam]

but I challenge you to provide evidence that Catholic men are leading the way.

Well, until I marry I plan not to get physically involved with a woman. I make the best effort to keep chastity in word and I don’t tolerate lascivious comments around me. I’m an apologist of chastity as being a good thing, a virtue and gift.

have a reputation of standing up for women

Well, I’d kindly tell the guy to cut it of in private or else I’d tell him to cut it off in public. [That’s about the best you can do.] I’m also cautious since society has changed to a degree where this would be inadmissible, thus I’d incur in being fooled against someone by false testimony of the lady (E.g. I don’t hold the recent allegations against Cristiano Ronaldo, by a Vegas hostess, to be credible.)

If it’s not ongoing I’d grant the man had repented and redeemed, no sense that the past chase him unjustly - roles could have been reversed and the girl chased him.

It boils down to peer pressure, cause you can hardly fight the powerful and his peers should be the ones correcting him. [Which would remit to ladies also not being keen telling other ladies they abuse their inherent power.]

 

[PetraG]

Well, I’d kindly tell the guy to cut it of in private or else I’d tell him to cut it off in public. [That’s about the best you can do.] I’m also cautious since society has changed to a degree where this would be inadmissible, thus I’d incur in being fooled against someone by false testimony of the lady (E.g. I don’t hold the recent allegations against Cristiano Ronaldo, by a Vegas hostess, to be credible.)

If it’s not ongoing I’d grant the man had repented and redeemed, no sense that the past chase him unjustly - roles could have been reversed and the girl chased him.

That is very good, but I am not talking about social situations. I am talking about situations in which one party is in a position of power relative to the other one or has authority over someone who has a position of power that can be abused. I am talking about calling out abuses of power and the failure to penalize abuses of power. These are, in a Catholic mindset, not abuses of power belonging to the individual with the power, but rather abuses of the trust given to someone who only has stewardship of the power given to them.

I am talking about situations such as the adult seminarians were in, when a person with higher status or power in an organization abuses their position and in so doing places pressure on those deemed to be “lower” or else engages in inappropriate sexual behaviors or relationships with people who are under their authority. (This is largely done by men, but there are also women in positions of power or influence who believe that they too have carte blanche to do and say what they want to those under their authority who do or do not meet their sexual fancies.)

Bill Clinton’s affair with Monica Lewinsky was not one where her status as an adult made their sexual trysts simply personal offenses against chastity. Even as an adult, she was still in a position where he could fire her or advance her career. He was in a position to give her advantages over other interns or other employees under him or to harm her based on whether he was getting the sexual gratification he wanted from her. That inappropriate relationship could not have been a secret to other people at the White House (even if they did not know with certainty the extent of the transgressions against chastity), but because the President was the President, it was tolerated.

That was an abuse of power, and that is what I’m talking about.

It boils down to peer pressure, cause you can hardly fight the powerful and his peers should be the ones correcting him. [Which would remit to ladies also not being keen telling other ladies they abuse their inherent power.]

When you say, "We desire nothing more than to become saints amidst scandal,” then the premise that “you can hardly fight the powerful” becomes something of a cop-out.

St. Thomas More is an exemplar of the Catholic who really did desire nothing more than to remain faithful and to refuse to endorse scandal. The King had no “peer” to correct him. That is the kind of power that abusers of power count on the most.

 

[adgloriam]

I am talking about situations such as the adult seminarians were in

Like you said the problem is much broader. I’ll give an example: There are countless universities, colleges, boarding schools, (and especially military academies) where in 100 years not a single case of abuse of power has been successfully brought forth - be it against any aspect of integrity. [It would be naive to think abuse of power doesn’t happen in such institutions.] Further analyses would reveal the better part of those institutions has mechanisms set in place not to denounce but to cover up any such occurrences - and crisis management in covering up equates to promotion to top positions. And we are talking about public state funded institutions where the next generation of powerful are being groomed to play along with abuse of power and perpetuate it themselves. Thus, the extension of such culture is ubiquitous - and political corruption is also an extension of that culture. [And that is how the world has worked and how it still presently works - you can hardly read the daily newspaper without verifying those effects].

 

[PetraG]

Like you said the problem is much broader. I’ll give an example: There are countless universities, colleges, boarding schools, (and especially military academies) where in 100 years not a single case of abuse of power has been successfully brought forth - be it against any aspect of integrity. [It would be naive to think abuse of power doesn’t happen in such institutions.] Further analyses would reveal the better part of those institutions has mechanisms set in place not to denounce but to cover up any such occurrences - and crisis management in covering up equates to promotion to top positions. And we are talking about public state funded institutions where the next generation of powerful are being groomed to play along with abuse of power and perpetuate it themselves. Thus, the extension of such culture is ubiquitous - and political corruption is also an extension of that culture. [And that is how the world has worked and how it still presently works - you can hardly read the daily newspaper without verifying those effects].

This is exactly the kind of situation that those in positions of power ought to be addressing. Yes, those who have authority in the Church to be servants of the servants of God, most of all. Nevertheless, anywhere that a Catholic holds power, a Catholic has a duty similar to what we are calling upon the bishops to faithfully carry out.

You are exactly right about this: we have to know that when there are never any allegations of wrong-doing, it isn’t because there is never anything like wrong-doing going on. It is because those with allegations to make are made to shut up. In a world that runs according to the Gospel, the weak would not be made to shut up in order to preserve the false reputations of the strong.

 

[pnewton]

If you think that Catholic men in the US have a reputation of standing up for women when women in their workplaces

I do not think either way. I do. I am a Catholic man. I am sure there are others.

 

[PetraG]

I do not think either way. I do. I am a Catholic man. I am sure there are others.

And as I originally noted, I’m sure there were men signing who are the same. My point is that these are Catholic men writing to the Pope about holding authority to a certain standard. When someone writes a letter correcting someone else and makes it a point to say of themselves, "we desire nothing more than to become saints amidst scandal,” then they had better be sure they are getting up and doing themselves what they are chiding the bishops for failing to do.

I’m telling you as a Catholic woman that Catholic men in this country have some work to do in that very same area.

 

[pnewton]

I’m telling you as a Catholic woman that Catholic men in this country have some work to do in that very same area.

Who can argue with that? I would dare say all (as groups and individuals) have work to do in most areas.

 

[bassmansteiny]

I believe this is the letter I signed after hearing the authors talk about it on Morning Glory, an EWTN program.

 

[bassmansteiny]

This is not an angry letter petition. It is asking the Holy Father to get more involved into this crisis in the US and what is happening in other countries. The signers of this petition know that is not the majority of thegood and holy priest and bishops. The letter is very respectful and has some very well known Catholic leaders and theologians on it.