Letter to the Hebrews 9:7, Purgatory, and Prayers for the Dead

[switalabe]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

 

[ARSpade]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben
.

Everybody in Purgatory has been judged and everybody in Purgatory is going to heaven. Judgement does occur right at death.

Nothing unclean enters heaven, so Purgatory is just the purging (by fire, it’s in the Bible) of all the leftover bad stuff that you’ve been forgiven for doing but still needs to be burned off you. But you’ve already been judged and are going to heaven.

Nobody in Purgatory risks going to hell. If you’re going to hell you just go there.

Prayers for the dead are for those in Purgatory, to lessen the suffering they go through to get rid of the bad stuff (Bible says the process hurts, IIRC).

 

[ARSpade]

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

Your friend is sorta right. You’re judged when you die.

Purgatory is the burning away of all the bad stuff you did but were forgiven for (it’s in the Bible). Everybody in Purgatory will go to heaven. They’ve already been judged as good to go.

If you’re going to hell then you just go there.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I don’t read it that way at all. Does the verse say nothing can transpire between death and judgment? If I said Americans go to college and then get a job, can nothing happen between? They are reading into the text words that are not there.

As we see not much later in Hebrews, the spirits of those in heaven and those “made perfect.” (12:23) Really all of Hebrews 12 is about sanctification which is the essence of purgatory.

 

[JRKH]

Amen -

You die and then you are judged. How does this disprove purgatory?

I think, that This, from the Dialogues of St Catherine of Sienna, puts it wonderfully.
Note in this - that the dialogues were written down as she was in ecstasies and are written as direct communications from the Father to her…Thus it is written in “first person God”…

"Wherefore, know, that at the moment of death, they, having passed their life under the lordship of the Devil (not that they were forced to do so, for as I told you they cannot be forced, but they voluntarily put themselves into his hands), and, arriving at the extremity of their death under this perverse lordship, they await no other judgment than that of their own conscience, and desperately, despairingly, come to eternal damnation. Wherefore Hell, through their hate, surges up to them in the extremity of death, and before they get there, they take hold of it, by means of their lord the Devil.
"As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body.
"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.
“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred, as I told you. So that neither the one nor the other waits for judgment, but, in departing this life, they receive every one their place, as I have told you, and they taste it and possess it before they depart from the body, at the extremity of death – the damned with hatred and with despair, and the perfect ones with love and the light of faith and with the hope of the Blood. And the imperfect arrive at the place of Purgatory, with mercy and the same faith.”

So we see here, that the judgement may have three outcomes. Heaven, Hell or Purgation.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Amen -

You die and then you are judged. How does this disprove purgatory?

I think, that This, from the Dialogues of St Catherine of Sienna, puts it wonderfully.
Note in this - that the dialogues were written down as she was in ecstasies and are written as direct communications from the Father to her…Thus it is written in “first person God”…

"Wherefore, know, that at the moment of death, they, having passed their life under the lordship of the Devil (not that they were forced to do so, for as I told you they cannot be forced, but they voluntarily put themselves into his hands), and, arriving at the extremity of their death under this perverse lordship, they await no other judgment than that of their own conscience, and desperately, despairingly, come to eternal damnation. Wherefore Hell, through their hate, surges up to them in the extremity of death, and before they get there, they take hold of it, by means of their lord the Devil.
"As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body.
"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.
“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred, as I told you. So that neither the one nor the other waits for judgment, but, in departing this life, they receive every one their place, as I have told you, and they taste it and possess it before they depart from the body, at the extremity of death – the damned with hatred and with despair, and the perfect ones with love and the light of faith and with the hope of the Blood. And the imperfect arrive at the place of Purgatory, with mercy and the same faith.”

So we see here, that the judgement may have three outcomes. Heaven, Hell or Purgation.

Peace
James

 

[Richard_White]

Yes, we are judged to either Heaven or Hell. A time spent in Purgatory means that have been saved and are destined for Heaven, we just need some purification first before we can attain the Beatific Vision of God. Thus, a judgment by the Lord Jesus to Purgatory is really one for Heaven, the soul (as I believe Saint Catherine of genoa wrote in her Treatise on Purgatory), voluntarily casts itself into Purgatory for the necessary purgation by fire before it is worthy to stand in the Holy Presence of God.

And that is why we pray for the Holy Souls in Purgatory: that their punishments be lessened and shortened according to the Will of God.

May God bless you and inspire you with the right words to say to show your friend the Truths of Catholicism!

 

[Robyn_p]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

Notice the text does not say that after judgment we go straight to heaven or hell. All it says is that after death we are judged immediately. This doesn’t rule out purgatory at all. Purgatory isn’t a separate judgment or destination from heaven. I think that might be where your friend is getting confused. It’s more of a pit stop on our way into heaven.

The Church teaches when we die, we are judged immediately. We’re either sent to heaven or hell. If heaven is our destination, we may still require some purification before entering. But our judgment is final. Purgatory isn’t separate from that decision. It’s part of it.

As far as praying for the dead goes, again it’s not about changing the judgment the dead person received. Their fate is sealed. All it does is help shorten the purification they might need.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

Hello Ben,
I can be judged worthy of Heaven but still be unclean. I need to be cleansed or purged before I can enter Heaven.

(unlikely but possible scenario)
If one lived a perfect life, in God’s eyes, right up until just seconds before death,
but at that moment they wrongly accuse someone (in front of others) of stealing
or causing their heart attack, and then after they say this they die.
would they go to hell for that? No.
But they now have a stain on their soul and being unclean, can not enter Heaven.
Were do they go after judgment? Purgatory, to be cleansed or purged of this stain.
The souls in Purgatory can’t help themselves, they need us on earth
and those in Heaven to pray for them.

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”
and that judgment can be deemed, for a part of ones time to be spent in Purgatory.
I like to think of it as a Hot bath before bed.

This link should help you,
catholic.com/encyclopedia/purgatory

 

[dmar198]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

I think your post script is basically spot-on. I think there is evidence that purgatory takes place during judgment, because it involves the fire of judgment. In Spe Salvi 47, Pope Benedict seems to lend support to this, at least to me. Speaking of Purgatory, he says, “Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement.”

You come before the judgment seat of Christ, and as He judges you, He burns away your impurities. At least, that is my understanding. I hope it’s helpful.

 

[porthos11]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

Those in Purgatory are judged. They have been judged and found righteous. This does not contradict Purgatory at all.

 

[Techno2000]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

2 Machabees, 12. 46:
“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”

 

[Techno2000]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

2 Machabees, 12. 46:
“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”

 

[Catholic_96]

1022 “Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.”

After being judged, the soul either goes to hell, heaven, OR purgatory.

So, Hebrews 9:27 does not contradict purgatory or praying for the dead in any way.

 

[Muzhik]

Point out to your friend that heaven and hell both exist in eternity, i.e., they exist outside the arc of time. So prayers that are offered for someone who died years ago would be applied to them as if you had prayed for them years ago.

Also, Heb. 9:7 does not preclude Purgatory. Purgatory is a state, not a destination. These are souls that have been judged as worthy to enter heaven, yet still attached to some sin. Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, they are held until they have “unlearned” their attachment. That’s why we call the souls in Purgatory the “Holy Souls” – they will reach heaven eventually, after they are purged of sin. Their sentence in Purgatory can be reduced by our sharing in their sufferings through offering prayers and sacrifices. That’s part of what makes us a community of believers – you don’t stop believing just because your body ceases to exist.

 

[JerryZ]

Hi CA Community,

I have a non-Catholic Christian friend who has asked me how the Letter to the Hebrews 9:27 meshes with prayers for the dead.

The verse reads, according to the Bible on the USCCB website:

“Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,”

So, this makes it sound like the process of dying and judging being —> you die → you get judged → you go to heaven or hell. Seems like prayers for the dead and Purgatory have no room in this picture, right?

So, how to explain?

Thanks,
Ben

PS If I answered on my own I would probably point out that judgment is a complicated affair; during most trials, testimony from various witnesses is accepted. Just so are prayers for the dead, who are being judged, accepted.

Point him/her to the 1 Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians.

3:11 For no one is able to lay any other foundation, in place of that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. 3:12 But if anyone builds upon this foundation, whether gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble, 3:13 each one’s work shall be made manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it will be revealed by fire. And this fire will test each one’s work, as to what kind it is. 3:14 If anyone’s work, which he has built upon it, remains, then he will receive a reward. 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer its loss, but he himself will still be saved, but only as through fire.

Note that he states that after judgement if the works one brings to judgement are burned up meaning they are not gold, silver and precious stones, (Ones accomplishments in life were not what they could have been, but we just made it through it without truly striving to achieve sainthood in this life) but since we built on Jesus’s foundation we will be saved however (WE WILL HAVE TO SUFFER) before we enter into Heaven.

Remember nothing unclean enters Heaven

Hope this helps.

---

 

[John_Martin]

Do you recall what John saw in his Apocalypse, when he saw the altar -

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Now, he was seeing it in a vision, so it was anthropomorphized for his understanding of it, since souls actually are without their bodies, but the fact is, they are there in the presence of God and do “cry out to God” literally when we call out to them.

The words, “and after this” do not necessarily indicate instantaneously. There is no statement of “how long after death”, but simply the fact that there will be judgment after death.

Later in the same chapter in Hebrews is written what will really happen, where it is declared firmly that Christ “will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” Meaning, those waiting yet alive on earth and those waiting under the altar and praying in heaven. Those in heaven are awaiting this date as we are, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies so that in their flesh with their eyes they will see God (Book of Job Chpt 19:
"For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!.

The whole Bible supports what you know as a Catholic; read, drink it all in, good stuff, delightful stuff.