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funion987
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Is the classic trilemma apologetic argument (that Jesus was either lord, liar or lunatic) insulting to Islam?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I have been told that Muslims view Jesus as a (lesser) prophet. Thus, to their viewpoint, there is a fourth option: Jesus was a prophet (and prophets have often been accused of being crazy).
If I were a Muslim, I would say that the trilemma was incomplete, because I would see a Door #4. But not insulting.
If I were a Muslim, I would say that the trilemma was incomplete, because I would see a Door #4. But not insulting.
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brian614
Guest
The Muslims view would make Christ a liar… He never claimed to be a prophet.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Well, we can debate that he never explicitly claimed to be God either. But, although he never claimed to be a prophet (either explicitly or implicitly), there is no debate that he was also a prophet. All Christians believe that Jesus spoke a divinely-revealed truth (which is the definition of prophet).
A person does not need to say, “I am a prophet” to be a prophet, any more than a person needs to say, “I am God the Son” to be divine.
Muslims are correct in saying that Jesus is a prophet. They are incorrect in saying he is ONLY a prophet.
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brian614
Guest
Remember when Christ asks his disciples “Who do the people say that I am”
Or when Jesus said “I AM”
These are a few statements he made that give us only 3 options… He is either crazy, blasphemous (As the Jews thought, that’s why they wanted to stone him for claiming to be God) Or he was God…
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Those are clues. Given sufficient background knowledge, we can draw conclusions. Someone without sufficient background knowledge (such as many Muslims) would not draw the same conclusions. And, remember, Muslims might accept Jesus as a prophet, but they do not accept the New Testament as Scripture.
To Christians, this is true. But a Muslim who does not accept the inspired nature of the New Testament could still regard Jesus only as a misunderstood prophet (and Jesus himself lamented that the Jews killed their prophets).
Jesus WAS a prophet, and he identified himself as a prophet. Christians believe he was MORE than a prophet, but do not argue with Muslims that he WAS a prophet.
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CatholicSheila
Guest
Mark 6:4
Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.”
Matthew 21:10 - 11
When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”. The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
Luke 24:19
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people.
Jesus was called a prophet in the Gospels.
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brian614
Guest
Clearly I was mistaken. My apologizes.
I was thinking of another time in the Gospels when Jesus did not deny that he was God after I made my last post… In John chapter 20:
If Jesus was not God, he would have corrected Thomas
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brian614
Guest
Also with the exception of your example from Mark, it was the people saying he was a prophet not Christ himself… Remember the people did not have a clear understanding on who Jesus was. Some even thought he was demonic or a magician if I remember correctly…
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brian614
Guest
I do not know much about Islam, do they use the New Testament at all? I thought they used the OT… But I am not sure.
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carn
Guest
Muslim view is that the gospels are lies, the christians have a distorted bible. Hence i guess they would not see any insult in the option liar, but would refer it to those who corrupted Jesus story.
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Auntie_A
Guest
In case we are not clear on this, look it up in your catechism 436: “Jesus fulfilled the messianic hope of Israel in his threefold office of priest, prophet, and king.”
The problem is that many muslims do not regard the “messianic hope of Israel”.
But to the original topic, I could take anything or anyone out of its context and assign it just one role. I could look at my Mom and say that she is just my mom, not my dad’s wife, not my grandmother’s daughter and not our community’s educator and friend. By doing that, I miss most of the truth about my Mom and I dishonor the entirety of her life and influence.
To perceive Jesus as prophet only is so limited and limiting, dishonorable, and, like my metaphor, is very self-serving.
“Just a prophet” would not have died for being King of the Jews. He would have said something like John the Baptist said about Jesus: “I am unworthy to untie the straps of his sandals” (if referring to someone greater than Him, yet to come.) Or something to that effect. “Just a prophet” would not have spoken of the kingdom of heaven in the way that He did. And the miracles. And the prophecies of His own death and Resurrection. I really don’t think it is possible to have a “fourth perspective” unless you want to play with history.
And, if it is all a lie, don’t you think the world would have exposed this lie already or–WHOOPS! is that what has been going on in the secular world? Well, it ain’t working…Christ’s truth lives.
Why do you ask this question? Are you trying to understand this Muslim belief? I’ve been trying to “flesh it out” for years and it just doesn’t hold water. It’s convenient but full of holes. Perhaps I am insulting but it is not my intention. My intention is to find the truth.
The problem is that many muslims do not regard the “messianic hope of Israel”.
But to the original topic, I could take anything or anyone out of its context and assign it just one role. I could look at my Mom and say that she is just my mom, not my dad’s wife, not my grandmother’s daughter and not our community’s educator and friend. By doing that, I miss most of the truth about my Mom and I dishonor the entirety of her life and influence.
To perceive Jesus as prophet only is so limited and limiting, dishonorable, and, like my metaphor, is very self-serving.
“Just a prophet” would not have died for being King of the Jews. He would have said something like John the Baptist said about Jesus: “I am unworthy to untie the straps of his sandals” (if referring to someone greater than Him, yet to come.) Or something to that effect. “Just a prophet” would not have spoken of the kingdom of heaven in the way that He did. And the miracles. And the prophecies of His own death and Resurrection. I really don’t think it is possible to have a “fourth perspective” unless you want to play with history.
And, if it is all a lie, don’t you think the world would have exposed this lie already or–WHOOPS! is that what has been going on in the secular world? Well, it ain’t working…Christ’s truth lives.
Why do you ask this question? Are you trying to understand this Muslim belief? I’ve been trying to “flesh it out” for years and it just doesn’t hold water. It’s convenient but full of holes. Perhaps I am insulting but it is not my intention. My intention is to find the truth.
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Sam_777
Guest
YES.
Jesus is not Lord, nor liar nor lunatic in the Islamic dogma.
Jesus is a normal prophet like all other prophets in the Islamic dogma.
And I personally see that statement as an insult even in a Christian prospective.I think sometimes that GOD should put a permanent mark in the sky (visible to all humans) showing His religion in all languages so all humans can know which religion is true.
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carn
Guest
But the story told about him in the gospels is considered a lie in Islam, especially his crucification.
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snarflemike
Guest
And he did claim to be God.
Or to put it another way, did any other prophet ever make claims about himself such as Jesus made?
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funion987
Guest
Personally, I see my Catholic faith as an extremely coherent way of explaining reality and life in its diverse facets. Truth be told, prayer and the attempt to foster a personal relationship with Jesus Christ have been a key factor in this coherency, but still I can never be sure whether the God I am praying to is the Trinitarian God or Allah of Islam.
So, I go to apologetics for reassurance. There have been eucharistic miracles down the centuries, there are the incorruptibles, there are the mystics, those with the stigmata, the arguments for the resurrection, and other fallible aesthetic experience I have had which leads to the likely conclusion that God is indeed love.
But I’m not bigoted enough to say that the evidence I have seen for Catholicism is the monopoly of all evidence for faith with regards to every person. This is the way I see history, philosophy, and logic, and thus for me it is within reason to make the elevated step towards faith in Christ. However, I can only assume that every person of every other religion goes through the same process. Certainly it would be non-sensical to believe something if your reason objected to it (the sacraficium intellectum of Thomas Aquinas).
So, then, there must be a reason why the Islamic faith does not view Jesus as God. It seems from people’s responses that it is because the NT is invalid, whether by a purposeful deceit or extreme ignorance on the part of the authors.
Perhaps Lewis should have rephrased to say, “Given the Gospel accounts as a historical record, then Jesus was either lord, liar, or lunatic.”
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DavidFilmer
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But your history comes from the New Testament. Muslims don’t accept that the NT is inerrant. They think it is a mixture of truth and errors.
Muslims believe Jesus was a (lesser) prophet, but his teachings were misunderstood (or distorted) by his followers. Jesus never said “I AM” (as far as they’re concerned). All that “God” stuff is part of the errors of the early Church who misunderstood Jesus.
If you accept only the parables of Jesus as divinely inspired wisdom (which Muslims do) then Jesus could well be a prophet (and, indeed, he was). The trilemma does not hold if you reject the idea that Jesus claimed to be divine. “Inspired prophet” is a perfectly valid alternative.
The trilemma rests on the assumption that Jesus actually said “I AM.”
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Sam_777
Guest
The story itself but NOT JESUS.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
I don’t know that Lewis’ Trilemma is insulting to Islam, but if anything Islam is evidence of the trilemma being logically fallacious.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
No, there are more than 3 options, the most obvious of which is that he never actually said those words. This is precisely why the Trilemma is logically fallacious.
Muslims doubt the veracity of the New Testament, and so if you provided a Muslim with the multiple-choice style question she’d probably say “none of the above”.
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