LGBT equality same as black equality

[epan]

On your part, yes.

I have. I own every one of my words. I have never stated, nor would I ever believe, anything so insufficient as to claim that “information” (regarding HPV or anything else) is what is required of a parent, relative to teen sex. It is completely insufficient, in fact. Parents are there to provide moral guidance. “Support” (your word, not mine) is utterly inappropriate when extended to a “sexually active” high school student, or (God forbid), younger.

I don’t support it, and conscientious parents should never support it, or they are failing not only in their natural duty, but their religious duty (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc.).

To argue that “information” is the key to preventing teens from going astray morally and medically is extremely short-sighted. The fact is, information has been proven to fail as a gatekeeper when it comes to teen behavior. Rather, supervision, guidance, adherence to a set of values has been proven to be more effective in directing teen behavior. Many teenagers, iif not most, are essentially in danger of being controlled by their emotions, with regard to many, many areas in life – and with all kinds of choices. It’s a period of extreme swings, rapid changes, and heightened impulsivity, combined with a skepticism about “information,” relative to the “sure knowledge” of emotion.

An intellectual approach is pathetic, at best.

Your rhetoric is ugly, and lacks compassion. Your logic is flawed by incredible biases and misconceptions. That’s about all there is to say about it. I’ve read your other posts. At least they are consistent.

 

[SamH]

Imagine if the Catholic Church had put 50% of the effort into opposing the holocaust as it puts into the fight against gay marriage. No, there is no discrimination or persecution.

Imagine if gays quit spreading AIDs…

 

[epan]

That is most unjust and outrageous! We can discuss the unvarnished role of the Church during the Holocaust, but is or was the Church guilty of direct discrimination and persecution of homosexuals, “forced them into ghettos, burned alive, gassed, beaten up, fired from jobs, put into prison, ridiculed…”? And as amends, the Church should set aside her efforts against same sex ‘marriage’?

Please!

Do gays realize or remember the role of a Catholic organization, the Sisters of Charity at Catholic run St. Vincent’s Hospital and Medical Center in New York City, ground zero in the early days of the AIDS epidemic in the 80s? The sisters that cared for scores and scores of dying young men, as well as Catholic priests who ministered to them? When many medical practitioners and health professionals stayed away and feared treating them, these sisters and priests met the physical and spiritual needs of AIDS patients, doing what was before them to do, as St. Vincent de Paul counseled. They served in other Catholic hospitals as well, at Bayley Seton Hospital, the New York Foundling, St. Clare’s Hospital, Incarnation Children’s Center, Terence Cardinal Cooke Health Care Center, Lincoln Hospital, Cabrini Medical Center and others. Some of these institutions have closed, but they continue to serve AIDS victims to this day.
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It is merely an observation. The Church was not publicly vocal about the murder of Jews and homosexuals nearly to the extent that it is vocal opposing gay marriage. If anything is outrageous, it is that historic fact. Nuns were victims of the holocaust too.

It’s one thing to hide behind a press secretary and try to sound virtuous.it is quite another to risk one’s own life, to maintain one’s moral integrity. I understand why the pope was afraid of the Nazi’s. Perhaps another leader would have been more courageous.

But one does wonder, were the massacres more palatable because of who the victims primarily were? Would the Vatican have taken a public position, and even taken up arms, if Catholics had been rounded up by the millions and sent to death camps?

But this is really the topic of another thread. My point was that the Church’s effort on the gay marriage issue is out of proportion to its significance. You may disagree. But anyone who agrees, must wonder why? Is it the same phenomenon at work as the lack of interest when Jews and gays were being slaughtered? Is it simply prejudice, dressed up in dogma?

 

[CopticChristian]

Plantations? Not sure what that means. Is that your definition of unjust treatment? Whether someone has worked on a plantation?

You apparently never heard of the treatment of homosexuals by the Catholic Church in history. There were even special torture devices to insure a prolonged and painful death. Have you forgotten the holocaust?

Beaten up and prison. So, is your point that when a gay person is beaten up, sent to prison or killed for being gay, that this is not persecution? If so, then you must also say that when blacks suffered the same treatment, or were lynched, then it was all just fine. After all, people get beaten up all the time. It really doesn’t matter why. It’s all just what randomly happens in the world.

You do understand that these things happened to people for being gay, right? They were singled out simply for their sexual orientation.

I’m disappointed in you Coptic. Surely you don’t believe what you are suggesting.

Epan,

You suffer from gross generalization that does disservice to the Black community that suffered en masse and as individuals. Homosexuals like any other person in time have suffered from humanity that is indescriminate.

Homosexuals go to jail because they break the law.

Homosexuals are beaten because sometimes they solicit men that want nothing to do with them. You may want to spend a weekend in the emergency room at San Francisco General Hospital to see this.

 

[Stephen168]

Would the** Vatican** have taken a public position, and even taken up arms, if Catholics had been rounded up by the millions and sent to death camps?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

It is merely an observation. The Church was not publicly vocal about the murder of Jews and homosexuals nearly to the extent that it is vocal opposing gay marriage. If anything is outrageous, it is that historic fact. Nuns were victims of the holocaust too.

It’s one thing to hide behind a press secretary and try to sound virtuous.it is quite another to risk one’s own life, to maintain one’s moral integrity. I understand why the pope was afraid of the Nazi’s. Perhaps another leader would have been more courageous.

**But one does wonder, were the massacres more palatable because of who the victims primarily were? Would the Vatican have taken a public position, and even taken up arms, if Catholics had been rounded up by the millions and sent to death camps?

But this is really the topic of another thread. My point was that the Church’s effort on the gay marriage issue is out of proportion to its significance. You may disagree. But anyone who agrees, must wonder why? Is it the same phenomenon at work as the lack of interest when Jews and gays were being slaughtered?** Is it simply prejudice, dressed up in dogma?

Your musings on more palatable “massacres” of certain groups of people to the Church are ridiculous and suggestion of prejudice dressed up in dogma is egregious.

What is clear and obvious is your bias and prejudice against the Catholic Church, and the point of your postings is to denigrate her for the doctrine on homosexual behavior and position on so called same sex marriage. Denigrating the Church crosses the line and is disrespectful of the faith of Catholic participants in this board. Conduct rule #5 under Forum Rules.
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[epan]

Imagine if gays quit spreading AIDs…

Imagine if heterosexuals did, too. After all, there are more heterosexuals infected with HIV than homosexuals. I agree with you. That would be a good thing.

 

[Stephen168]

What is clear and obvious is your bias and prejudice against the Catholic Church, and the point of your postings is to denigrate her for the doctrine on homosexual behavior and position on so called same sex marriage.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people-Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[epan]

Your musings on more palatable “massacres” of certain groups of people to the Church are ridiculous and suggestion of prejudice dressed up in dogma is egregious.

What is clear and obvious is your bias and prejudice against the Catholic Church, and the point of your postings is to denigrate her for the doctrine on homosexual behavior and position on so called same sex marriage. Denigrating the Church crosses the line and is disrespectful of the faith of Catholic participants in this board. Conduct rule #5 under Forum Rules.
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I’m just raising the question.

I have denigrated nothing. It is an interesting historic question, as to why the Church was silent during the Holocaust. My assumption, is that Italy was a part of the Axis, and the Vatican was afraid for its survival. Fear is understandable, and it may be that the wisest course was taken for the survival of the Church.

The burning or heretics. The torture of homosexuals. These are sad historic facts, and are well documented. There are museums which exhibit the torture implements which were employed.

My point, which seems to be contested here, is not to attack the Church, per se, but to point out that there has indeed been persecution of homosexuals. I believe that is a historic fact, which extends into modern history.

When I read statements like, “people get beaten up all the time,” or “people go to prison all the time,” as justification for prejudice and persecution, then I feel compelled to point out the truth, even if that truth is something that someone reading it might prefer to find offensive. Yes, those historic acts are offensive. They are so offensive that even reminding people of them is sometimes found offensive.

This is precisely why it is illegal in Germany to deny the Holocaust. However, simply because behavior cannot be morally justified, this does not give one the right to deny that it occurred.

The topic of this thread is equality and prejudice. One would be remiss not to explore these topics, even if people who would deny the acts I refer to find it offensive to be reminded of objective history. Call it bias if you like. But it is also true.

Can you refute that this is a part of our shared history? Can you tell me that the Church has not persecuted Jews? Can you tell me that the Church has not persecuted heretics? Can you tell me that the Church has not persecuted homosexuals?

If you honestly believe that, then your understanding of history is much different than mine.

The present day does not exist outside of historic context. If it did, then the Church would have no authority at all. It is only fair to ask these questions.

 

[epan]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people-Eleanor Roosevelt

… and to understand how ideas are applied in the real world, then historic facts sometimes are employed to understand the motivation for ideas today.

This thread is becoming too contentious, and I really am not interested in attacking the Catholic Church. My intent was to attack the prejudice and bigotry which have appeared in this thread by some, and to point out that one should look at ideas in the context of history, and with a critical eye.

The funny thing is that I don’t actually support gay marriage. But I am strongly opposed to unjust prejudice and persecution of any group.

This is my last post in this thread. Have fun.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Imagine if heterosexuals did, too. After all, there are more heterosexuals infected with HIV than homosexuals. I agree with you. That would be a good thing.

Not in the U.S. Read the CDC report.

Further, in the country, and not in Africa, during the explosion of HIV/AIDS cases in the early 80’s, the research pointed to bisexuals spreading the virus to the heterosexual population.
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[Stephen168]

This thread is becoming too contentious, and I really am not interested in attacking the Catholic Church.

I would have believed you until post #455 and your subsequent posts

The funny thing is that I don’t actually support gay marriage. But I am strongly opposed to unjust prejudice and persecution of any group.

Except the Catholic Church. You don’t need to talk about people to talk about ideas.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people-Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[epan]

Not in the U.S. Read the CDC report.

Further, in the country, and not in Africa, during the explosion of HIV/AIDS cases in the early 80’s, the research pointed to bisexuals spreading the virus to the heterosexual population.
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Ah, yes. Cherry pick your data in order to support your bigotry. I can’t believe how low this discussion is sinking.

HIV transmission has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of gay marriage, gender equality, or sexuality equality. It is only raised here to evoke hatred and bigotry. Bye.

Yes, I have read the CDC reports. More recent ones than you refer to.

 

[pnewton]

Your rhetoric is ugly, and lacks compassion. Your logic is flawed by incredible biases and misconceptions. That’s about all there is to say about it. I’ve read your other posts. At least they are consistent.

Presenting moral truth is compassionate, or at least can be compassionate if one is motivated to preven souls from spending an eternity in Hell.

 

[pnewton]

…But I am strongly opposed to unjust prejudice and persecution of any group…

Ah, yes. Cherry pick your data in order to support your bigotry.

Twice you accuse people this morning of bigotry for supporting the 2000 year old position of Christianity. That is the only rhetoric and lack of charity I see.

The LGBT have all the rights as anyone else. As with all of us, there are certain** acts** that are prohibited by law, which acts apply to all. The specific action of being a married same sex couple is not the only type of illegal marriage. It is one of a myriad including marriage to multiple people, marriage to an animal or inanimate object, marriage to oneself and marriage to a child. All of these prohibited acts are prohibited to everyone.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Ah, yes. Cherry pick your data in order to support your bigotry. I can’t believe how low this discussion is sinking.

HIV transmission has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of gay marriage, gender equality, or sexuality equality. It is only raised here to evoke hatred and bigotry. Bye.

Yes, I have read the CDC reports. More recent ones than you refer to.

Indeed how low the discussion has sunk, your posting that Elizabeth502 has ugly rhetoric and lacking in compassion and that my bigotry shows.

You are not in support of gay ‘marriage’, but, In the interest of “equality” and fight against your perception of prejudice, you imply that the Church and Catholics should be muted with speaking against it. In the battle of ideas, that’s like throwing a smoke bomb.

If you are really bowing out of this thread, I would hope that in the next thread you jump in, you would have a more coherent or congruent line of exposition of your opinions.

Bye, epan.
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