Liberal and Catholic?

[reteeks21]

Given the conversation in the past few years regarding Catholics who do not oppose abortion, or who even support homsexual marriage, is it possible to be a liberal and Catholic? Just curious. Just thought it would be an interesting question.

 

[ralphinal]

Given the conversation in the past few years regarding Catholics who do not oppose abortion, or who even support homsexual marriage, is it possible to be a liberal and Catholic? Just curious. Just thought it would be an interesting question.

The concept of a “conservative” Catholic is a recent one. Historically, Catholics were considered liberal. If you remove abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and homosexual unions from the picture, the traditional Catholic teachings fall more liberal than conservative. The Church is anti-death penalty, pro-social programs to help those in need, pro-education funding, pro-medical care for all citizens, and so on and so on. The only problem is that the three big ones that I listed are impossible to ignore. One may not support these causes lest one contribute to sin, if not assist in it. There is no way around it. Right now, liberals are defined as those who support these things, so under the current regime, no a Catholic cannot truly be a liberal. This does not mean that we are “conservatives” either. It means that we truly do not have a voice as such.

 

[reteeks21]

The concept of a “conservative” Catholic is a recent one. Historically, Catholics were considered liberal. If you remove abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and homosexual unions from the picture, the traditional Catholic teachings fall more liberal than conservative. The Church is anti-death penalty, pro-social programs to help those in need, pro-education funding, pro-medical care for all citizens, and so on and so on. The only problem is that the three big ones that I listed are impossible to ignore. One may not support these causes lest one contribute to sin, if not assist in it. There is no way around it. Right now, liberals are defined as those who support these things, so under the current regime, no a Catholic cannot truly be a liberal. This does not mean that we are “conservatives” either. It means that we truly do not have a voice as such.

Thanks for that response. Do you know of any source(s) I can look at to see the official Catholic positions on the other issues you mentioned? I would really like to check those out.

Also, do you think it is right for the government to take care of people if they do not try to take care of themselves? I totally understand taking care of the elderly, sick, and veterans, but what about the welfare state? Thanks again for the reply.

 

[Fred_4]

Liberal is not supposed to be a bad word. Dwight Eisenhower called himself a “liberal.” Our form of government is very “liberal” by world standards as it holds that each person is equal before the law, and all have a say in their governance.

It is only when we try to insist that this “liberal” notion must apply to the yet-to-be-born that we’re tagged as “conservatives.” These words are just labels, but words have meanings, and meanings (mainly through shifting connotations) change.

The notion that certain people have rights that others do not enjoy (such as a noble class) is a very reactionary one.

 

[ralphinal]

Thanks for that response. Do you know of any source(s) I can look at to see the official Catholic positions on the other issues you mentioned? I would really like to check those out.

Also, do you think it is right for the government to take care of people if they do not try to take care of themselves? I totally understand taking care of the elderly, sick, and veterans, but what about the welfare state? Thanks again for the reply.

See, I am more conservative than many, so I have issues with a welfare state. I do, however, see situations where people are not afforded opportunities to leave the governement dole, so to speak. Personally, I think that welfair should be about creating opportunities for people to leave it.

As far as sources, check the Catachism or any Catholic websites, like Catholic Answers. The CCC has sections on the role of governments as well as how the other issues fit into the commandments and beatitudes. On some of these, we can disagree and still be good Catholics, but not on the three I mentioned and not on helping those in true need.

 

[JMBNH]

European Conservative views seem to be more Catholic friendly, as there’s more of a social welfare state in general, so conservative to that doesn’t mean restricting healthcare, execution and guns etc. In fact having the conservative American views on those issues would make you be considered a fascist here.

 

[jwashu]

The concept of a “conservative” Catholic is a recent one. Historically, Catholics were considered liberal. If you remove abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and homosexual unions from the picture, the traditional Catholic teachings fall more liberal than conservative. The Church is anti-death penalty, pro-social programs to help those in need, pro-education funding, pro-medical care for all citizens, and so on and so on. The only problem is that the three big ones that I listed are impossible to ignore. One may not support these causes lest one contribute to sin, if not assist in it. There is no way around it. Right now, liberals are defined as those who support these things, so under the current regime, no a Catholic cannot truly be a liberal. This does not mean that we are “conservatives” either. It means that we truly do not have a voice as such.

Truly as Catholics I don’t believe we have a party. What I quoted above from ralph is true but it’s more complicated than that even.

There are still a good portion (like 30%) of elected “liberals” who are Pro-Life, Anti-Gay Marraige etc… Yet for the major elections it seems one almost has to have support of some of the far left social groups to get nominated. On the surface this puts it almost having to vote for the person who is pro-death penality, less social programs etc…

That is until you take a step back and look at statistics…

Most “liberal” canidates agree with us on pretty much every point except Abortion and Stem Cell. This comes from their understanding on when life begins. Just as the Church once defined life as beginning at “the Quickening” (ie when the mother can feel the baby move) as I believe the Orthodox still do (I may be wrong about this) we now know, through both Revelation and Science, better.

Gay marraige really isn’t an issue because most candidates on both sides favor civil unions which ultimately just enables “partners” to get health care. Even if we few it as sinful I’m not sure we want anyone to go without healthcare because we want them to have every opportunity to repent.

Back to abortion though, if you look at the CDC data, abortions go down more drastically when economic times are good and when there are more social programs for those considering the procedure. The biggest, most drastic drop we saw was during the 90s under a Pro-Choice administration. During the last 8 years that drastic drop has pretty much stopped and some age groups (teenagers) are already increasing again. We won’t know the numbers on the past few years until they are published. This use to happen within about 6 months into the next year but has lagged for “some reason” the past 8 years. Back in 2005 there was no date from the first 4 years of the current administration.

Now we can’t say that it’s JUST because of economic times, obviously the good work we do in the Pro Life movement is making a difference as well. IMHO it’s the only explination on why abortions have not skyrocketed in recent years like they did in the 1980s.

So taking a step back, if we are Pro Life and want decrease abortions, the best route, statistically, would be to vote for a more fiscally liberal canidate and for us to continue push for a reversal of RvW. My personal opinion is that they will never happen but through Christ all things are possible so I just have to have faith… but while we are waiting and working towards that, our best option looks to be the liberal canidates who we side with on most other issues as well. It’s our best option because it will most likely save the most innocent lives.

Who knows, maybe one day we will have a Party that truly represents our views, I pray for that day.

Joe

 

[bpp85]

Given the conversation in the past few years regarding Catholics who do not oppose abortion, or who even support homsexual marriage, is it possible to be a liberal and Catholic? Just curious. Just thought it would be an interesting question.

I also wondered about that myself, there are some dogmas that someone cannot deny and be a catholic, but the things you listed are not one of them. So i’m not really sure about this

 

[ralphinal]

I also wondered about that myself, there are some dogmas that someone cannot deny and be a catholic, but the things you listed are not one of them. So i’m not really sure about this

Whatcha mean? One cannot support abortion and be in good standing as a Catholic. Please expound upon this.

 

[bpp85]

Whatcha mean? One cannot support abortion and be in good standing as a Catholic. Please expound upon this.

What i meant was that those are not dogmas that you must believe, those are sins, but like i said i’m not sure, what about Catholics who don’t think that masturbation is wrong, are they still Catholic

 

[ralphinal]

What i meant was that those are not dogmas that you must believe, those are sins, but like i said i’m not sure, what about Catholics who don’t think that masturbation is wrong, are they still Catholic

Ok. Now I see where you are coming from. Sin is sin. If you do not think that something is a sin, there are a few reasons for that. First, you may not have a properly formed conscience. In other words, you do not know any better. Second, you may be rationalizing it away as it is something that you like (want or need) and so you decide that it is not a sin and you go on your merry way. Third, it may be a combination of the two. Yes, you may still be Catholic and not be aware that something is a sin. It gets a little off base when you decide for yourself that something is not a sin when the church teaches otherwise. It does not mean that you are no longer Catholic. It means you have more work to do.

Now, abortion is a different thing all together. It becomes an issue when it is an issue in politics. The Church has the duty to assist in the salvation of all. This means we must confront sin as it is visible and teach others to avoid sin. Abortion became fair game in 1973. Now, all of us should protect life. Without life, what do we have? As such, you cannot be pro-choice and be Catholic. Once the sin is moved from an individual issue to a social sin, the view of the Church should be the veiw of the faithful.

I hope that this helps.

 

[hasikelee]

What i meant was that those are not dogmas that you must believe, those are sins, but like i said i’m not sure, what about Catholics who don’t think that masturbation is wrong, are they still Catholic

But, what is the teaching on sin? Don’t you have to believe that, and therefore what the church teaches is sin?

 

[bpp85]

Ok. Now I see where you are coming from. Sin is sin. If you do not think that something is a sin, there are a few reasons for that. First, you may not have a properly formed conscience. In other words, you do not know any better. Second, you may be rationalizing it away as it is something that you like (want or need) and so you decide that it is not a sin and you go on your merry way. Third, it may be a combination of the two. Yes, you may still be Catholic and not be aware that something is a sin. It gets a little off base when you decide for yourself that something is not a sin when the church teaches otherwise. It does not mean that you are no longer Catholic. It means you have more work to do.

Now, abortion is a different thing all together. It becomes an issue when it is an issue in politics. The Church has the duty to assist in the salvation of all. This means we must confront sin as it is visible and teach others to avoid sin. Abortion became fair game in 1973. Now, all of us should protect life. Without life, what do we have? As such, you cannot be pro-choice and be Catholic. Once the sin is moved from an individual issue to a social sin, the view of the Church should be the veiw of the faithful.

I hope that this helps.

Well i’m a new convert so i’m not really experienced
But i know a bunch of catholics who really think that masturbation or homosexuality isn’t a sin, but they still believe in for example 95% of what Catholic faith teaches, so i’m guessing they are still Catholics

 

[bpp85]

But, what is the teaching on sin? Don’t you have to believe that, and therefore what the church teaches is sin?

Yes people should believe that what the church teaches is sin, but many don’t, so should they immediatly go to a Lutheran church just because of an issue like masturbation or homosexuality

 

[ralphinal]

Well i’m a new convert so i’m not really experienced
But i know a bunch of catholics who really think that masturbation or homosexuality isn’t a sin, but they still believe in for example 95% of what Catholic faith teaches, so i’m guessing they are still Catholics

the question comes to WHY they think that something is not a sin. The Church is clear on most things that are problematic. They may or may not always be a sin, depending on situation and the thing itself. For example, killing someone is not always a sin, as in the case of self defense. Abortion is always wrong. Masterbation is always a sin, but it may or may not be mortal Homosexual attraction is not in and of itself a sin, but acting on it in any way is. If these people think that these things are not sins because it is a part of their life that they do not want to give up, then there is an issue. If it is that they do not see the rational as compelling but they are not gaining from that line of thought, it is less problematic. The thing is that Catholicism is not graded on a percent scale nor is it on a curve. Strictly pass/fail with effort being graded as well.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes people should believe that what the church teaches is sin, but many don’t, so should they immediatly go to a Lutheran church just because of an issue like masturbation or homosexuality

NO. They should figure out why they feel this way and address it. It is like taking medication for a problem. The meds might simply be masking the cause and not really treating it.

 

[bpp85]

NO. They should figure out why they feel this way and address it. It is like taking medication for a problem. The meds might simply be masking the cause and not really treating it.

Well that’s what i’m thinking, it’s better that “liberals” remain Catholic, then to lose faith in the church and just find another one.
But what about the people who for example disagree on church’s teaching on contraception, should they be excommunicated

 

[ralphinal]

Well that’s what i’m thinking, it’s better that “liberals” remain Catholic, then to lose faith in the church and just find another one.
But what about the people who for example disagree on church’s teaching on contraception, should they be excommunicated

Again, why do they disagree? Is it a matter of a lack of faith in God? Do they not trust that God will assist them when they have the child? Is it because they cannot live the NFP program? DO they have the attitude that some Pope can’t tell them what to do with their bodies? See, it is too complicated to say “Yes, they are still Catholics” or “No, they are no longer good CAtholics.” There are too many possible things that can lessen culpability. There are very few sins that carry automatic excommunication. Even most mortal sins do not excommunicate someone.

 

[bpp85]

Again, why do they disagree? Is it a matter of a lack of faith in God? Do they not trust that God will assist them when they have the child? Is it because they cannot live the NFP program? DO they have the attitude that some Pope can’t tell them what to do with their bodies? See, it is too complicated to say “Yes, they are still Catholics” or “No, they are no longer good CAtholics.” There are too many possible things that can lessen culpability. There are very few sins that carry automatic excommunication. Even most mortal sins do not excommunicate someone.

Well they can disagree for any of the reason you mentioned lol
Most of my friends say that they disagree with it, because they don’t think it’s a sin, and ignore the issue
And i’m 22 so i’m not exactly surrounded by conservative catholics

 

[ralphinal]

Well they can disagree for any of the reason you mentioned lol
Most of my friends say that they disagree with it, because they don’t think it’s a sin, and ignore the issue
And i’m 22 so i’m not exactly surrounded by conservative catholics

I understand. See, sin is balck or white. Culpability is not. We may sin, but our guilt may not be its fullest. Just keep learning the faith and be an example of Christ to others. Always remmember that sticking your head in the sand does not make the danger go away. I cannot decide what is a sin and neither can they.