Liberal?Conservative? What's the difference?

[Catholig]

Ahh, yes I suppose that my arguement could be twisted around to defent Euthansia. However, over 30 Republican Congressman/woman and over 10 Republican Senators realize that the two are not the same and made the decision to support getting something out of a bad thing (Possible cures out of the horrible In Vitro Fertilization Clinics) Who would of thought!!

And in regards to your Furniture stealing anology, I belive that we are saving the furniture, not stealing it, and puting it to some use rather than letting it be needlessly destroyed.

The priest, Im sorry to say, couldnt be more wrong: msnbc.msn.com/id/9401832/

While I am a self identified republican it doesn’t bother me that other republicans, even congressmen & senators, don’t think they are the same thing. The same argument is used - might as well harvest the usable organs - they are going to die anyway.

Also the comandments say “Thou shalt not steal” (Ex 20:15). This applies to both the furniture analogy & the embryoes. You cannot justify stealing.

Also commenting on the article. As I understood it it was talking about injecting human stem-cells into paralyzed mice - not using mice stem-cells. Either way, I don’t think it was refering to the developement of organs. They just injected the cells and hoped for the best.

Also as I said before: the hero sacrafices his own life not that of another.

Catholig

 

[Catholig]

I am against In Vitro Fertilization Clinics I think they should be abolished.

I most certainly disagree with your arguement that Nazi Concentration Camp Expirements can be likened to Stem Cell Research. Micheal Steele tried that arguement back in the 2006 elections and the was widely critisized by Holocaust Survivors and their families. Plus the Ethics are there now and the Goals are just. Nazies just did what they did to see what would happen, not a just goal in my opinion.

I also doubt the Fertilization clinics have anything to gain by stem cell research and I highly doubt that would happen.

Some of the best Research and Medical Scientists are in the United States and our facilities are much more advanced that lets say South Korea’s or Japans. However we are losing those scientist to foreign countries because of this and without the United States leading the research, South Korea and Japan are going foward with Stem Cell research without the moral and Ethical guidlines put in place by the Deggette-Castle Bill and the Harkin-Specter-Hatch Bil.

Sometimes I feel that it is wrong to say the abortion holocaust, however I realized that the only reason why anyone would take offense to that is if they truly don’t believe zygotes, embryos, fetuses are people. I do. To make a comparison to the Nazi experiments is perfectly legitimate.

As for Goals - I think the Nazis had goals, but even if they didn’t it doesn’t matter. Experimenting on twins, & killing people isn’t worth it.

As for America’s “moral guidlines”, what are you talking about? Are they treating the embryos more humanely? I don’t think so. It is just an attempt to make people into a comodity. And honestly if I were president I’d both ban all experimentation on embryos in this country, and do my best to make laws prohibition the importing of ANY medicine that required the murder of innocent human beings.

Honestly I think you should talk to your priest about this. It is sad that you would justify the murder of innocent people for scientific experiments. God gave them a soul. He created them for a reason. He created them out of love so that they may love him back - the reason for free will. To use these people as experiments is contrary to human dignity, and god’s plan.

Thou shalt not kill (Ex 20:13)

Catholig

 

[Pater_Familias]

Im not american however the media in my neck of the woods is not pro the war on terror. My personal opinion is that mistakes were made but that does not negate the good that ocurred.America never started this way but God willing they will finish it. As to abortion what a scourge an incomparably worse than any war. The foetus cant surrender nor seek protection under the geneva convention. Id probably vote republican

 

[Pater_Familias]

Eh that had to read war and not way. These confounded gremlins.

 

[Flem]

While I am a self identified republican it doesn’t bother me that other republicans, even congressmen & senators, don’t think they are the same thing. The same argument is used - might as well harvest the usable organs - they are going to die anyway.

Also the comandments say “Thou shalt not steal” (Ex 20:15). This applies to both the furniture analogy & the embryoes. You cannot justify stealing.

Also commenting on the article. As I understood it it was talking about injecting human stem-cells into paralyzed mice - not using mice stem-cells. Either way, I don’t think it was refering to the developement of organs. They just injected the cells and hoped for the best.

Also as I said before: the hero sacrafices his own life not that of another.

Catholig

Once again, you take my arguements out of context and use them in a bad light. Harvesting living organs should be the decision of the donor. But thats a totally different subject.

Once again, I believe it is saving the embryo and giving them some dignity and respect for it most certainly is going to be destroyed,

And on the article: The expirement had a degree of sucess, did it not? So their hoping payed off.

 

[Flem]

Sometimes I feel that it is wrong to say the abortion holocaust, however I realized that the only reason why anyone would take offense to that is if they truly don’t believe zygotes, embryos, fetuses are people. I do. To make a comparison to the Nazi experiments is perfectly legitimate.

As for Goals - I think the Nazis had goals, but even if they didn’t it doesn’t matter. Experimenting on twins, & killing people isn’t worth it.

As for America’s “moral guidlines”, what are you talking about? Are they treating the embryos more humanely? I don’t think so. It is just an attempt to make people into a comodity. And honestly if I were president I’d both ban all experimentation on embryos in this country, and do my best to make laws prohibition the importing of ANY medicine that required the murder of innocent human beings.

Honestly I think you should talk to your priest about this. It is sad that you would justify the murder of innocent people for scientific experiments. God gave them a soul. He created them for a reason. He created them out of love so that they may love him back - the reason for free will. To use these people as experiments is contrary to human dignity, and god’s plan.

Thou shalt not kill (Ex 20:13)

Catholig

Comparing Nazi Expirements to Embryonic Stem Cell Resarch is NOT perfectly legitamite. We were not present when the Nazi expirements took place so I believe it puts some degree of arogance on your part.
I also as you do, believe that embryoes are people, BUT the embryoes in the Clinics have no chance what so ever to be born out of the mothers womb.

How is trying to save the lives of people with Diabetes, ALC, Parkinsons, Spinal Cord Injuries, Lu Gehrigs and many others making people into a comodity. If anything, it is showing dignity and respect for the sanctity of human life.

I also think it is sad that you hide behind Biblical Quotes and Gods Commandments. Tell what you just said to my grandpa who was paralyzed 7 years ago, He, a very conservative Lutheran, said he would love to see embryonic stem cell research go foward, even if the hope of a cure was minimal. Well he mostly indicated it because he cant talk well after the stroke. I beleive whe really cant rule on this subject without spending year after year in the shoes of those lives we are trying to save.

 

[Catholig]

Comparing Nazi Expirements to Embryonic Stem Cell Resarch is NOT perfectly legitamite. We were not present when the Nazi expirements took place so I believe it puts some degree of arogance on your part.
I also as you do, believe that embryoes are people, BUT the embryoes in the Clinics have no chance what so ever to be born out of the mothers womb.

How is trying to save the lives of people with Diabetes, ALC, Parkinsons, Spinal Cord Injuries, Lu Gehrigs and many others making people into a comodity. If anything, it is showing dignity and respect for the sanctity of human life.

I also think it is sad that you hide behind Biblical Quotes and Gods Commandments. Tell what you just said to my grandpa who was paralyzed 7 years ago, He, a very conservative Lutheran, said he would love to see embryonic stem cell research go foward, even if the hope of a cure was minimal. Well he mostly indicated it because he cant talk well after the stroke. I beleive whe really cant rule on this subject without spending year after year in the shoes of those lives we are trying to save.

Why is comparing the Nazi’s experiments to stem cell research not perfectly legitimate? Because we weren’t alive when the experiments were taking place? Honestly, I don’t believe that that is very good reasoning. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact. That is like saying we can’t judge anything in history as wrong because we weren’t there. In any case, the Nazi’s probably left records of those experiments so we can examine them if we want.

Also using stem cell research is making human life a commodity. Basically it is saying - we can experiment we can experiment on a person - stealing their DNA, and killing them - for the sake of another. This logic devalues ALL life - not just that of the embryo. Think about this. What makes that embryo less worthy of life than any of those paralyzed people which you mentioned? Nothing. They are spiritually the same. If you can kill one person using that reasoning you can kill another.

And as for what you said regarding your grandpa, when you appeal to emotion occasionally you don’t get the one you are expecting, because the person you are debating realizes what you are trying to do. Seriously, I won’t change my position just because you know someone who is paralyzed. And while it may take some courage, I would probably say what I just said to you. Those aren’t my words - those are gods. Thou Shalt Not Kill. Thou Shalt Not Steal. (besides that biblical verses are often used in theological debate - you have yet to provide any that could show that god supports embryonic stem cell research.

Catholig

 

[Catholig]

Once again, you take my arguements out of context and use them in a bad light. Harvesting living organs should be the decision of the donor. But thats a totally different subject.

Once again, I believe it is saving the embryo and giving them some dignity and respect for it most certainly is going to be destroyed,

And on the article: The expirement had a degree of sucess, did it not? So their hoping payed off.

I don’t understand how my argument was taking yours out of context. Is your argument not universally applicable to all human life? Or is the embryo, who has a soul, and who god loves just as much as the rest of us, who god wants to be baptised, and grow to love him back, less worthy of life than those who only have x months to live?

Also I am interested in what moral guidlines you are talking about that the U.S. can impliment, but N. korea won’t. No matter what the embryos right to life is being violated. No matter what this murder & stem-cell harvesting will be repeated again and again (because as I said the stem-cell lines will degrade, and besides that even if we get a cure it will only fan the flames and more embryos will be killed).

Do you have any number for how many embryos will be destroyed for the sake of science under this bill? How many souls will die without being baptised?

It’s truly sad that some paralyzed people value their lives so much that they’d be willing to allow the murder of another human being. God wants the best for us. He gave us science. However he doesn’t want us to commit mortal sins for any reason.

Catholig

 

[Flem]

Why is comparing the Nazi’s experiments to stem cell research not perfectly legitimate? Because we weren’t alive when the experiments were taking place? Honestly, I don’t believe that that is very good reasoning. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact. That is like saying we can’t judge anything in history as wrong because we weren’t there. In any case, the Nazi’s probably left records of those experiments so we can examine them if we want.

Also using stem cell research is making human life a commodity. Basically it is saying - we can experiment we can experiment on a person - stealing their DNA, and killing them - for the sake of another. This logic devalues ALL life - not just that of the embryo. Think about this. What makes that embryo less worthy of life than any of those paralyzed people which you mentioned? Nothing. They are spiritually the same. If you can kill one person using that reasoning you can kill another.

And as for what you said regarding your grandpa, when you appeal to emotion occasionally you don’t get the one you are expecting, because the person you are debating realizes what you are trying to do. Seriously, I won’t change my position just because you know someone who is paralyzed. And while it may take some courage, I would probably say what I just said to you. Those aren’t my words - those are gods. Thou Shalt Not Kill. Thou Shalt Not Steal. (besides that biblical verses are often used in theological debate - you have yet to provide any that could show that god supports embryonic stem cell research.

Catholig

You cannot compare Nazi Expirements to Stem Cell Research because the goal is to save and prolong human life at the expense of the unborn human that has 0% of being born or baptized. They also, in my view, deserve some respect by not just needlessly throwing them into the trash and instead giving them some dignity.

Whould you rather have those unborn humanbeings go into the dumpster and have nothing come of it, or would you rather have them given some dignity rather than being thrown away?

Im am also very sorry that you interpreted my story about my Grandfather that way. That is very unfortunate. However is the embryoe that has been produced in a lab and not in the fetus take precedence over the one of a fully grown human being?

Where in the bible say that life begins at contraception.
The bible does say:
The Bible clearly states in Leviticus Chapter 17 Verse 11, “The life is in the blood”

 

[Flem]

I don’t understand how my argument was taking yours out of context. Is your argument not universally applicable to all human life? Or is the embryo, who has a soul, and who god loves just as much as the rest of us, who god wants to be baptised, and grow to love him back, less worthy of life than those who only have x months to live?

Also I am interested in what moral guidlines you are talking about that the U.S. can impliment, but N. korea won’t. No matter what the embryos right to life is being violated. No matter what this murder & stem-cell harvesting will be repeated again and again (because as I said the stem-cell lines will degrade, and besides that even if we get a cure it will only fan the flames and more embryos will be killed).

Do you have any number for how many embryos will be destroyed for the sake of science under this bill? How many souls will die without being baptised?

It’s truly sad that some paralyzed people value their lives so much that they’d be willing to allow the murder of another human being. God wants the best for us. He gave us science. However he doesn’t want us to commit mortal sins for any reason.

Catholig

To this, another quote-

Leviticus Chapter 17 Verse 14-“for the life of all flesh is its blood.”

 

[Flem]

And here is yet another for your viewing:
“you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood” (Gen. 9:4). And again in Deuteronomy 12:23, “the blood is the life.”

 

[Catholig]

You cannot compare Nazi Expirements to Stem Cell Research because the goal is to save and prolong human life at the expense of the unborn human that has 0% of being born or baptized. They also, in my view, deserve some respect by not just needlessly throwing them into the trash and instead giving them some dignity.

Whould you rather have those unborn humanbeings go into the dumpster and have nothing come of it, or would you rather have them given some dignity rather than being thrown away?

Im am also very sorry that you interpreted my story about my Grandfather that way. That is very unfortunate. However is the embryoe that has been produced in a lab and not in the fetus take precedence over the one of a fully grown human being?

Where in the bible say that life begins at contraception.
The bible does say:
The Bible clearly states in Leviticus Chapter 17 Verse 11, “The life is in the blood”

Stealing its stem-cells, & DNA while not acknowledging it as a person do not give it more dignity than destroying it the way the clinic would do. And even if its fate is certain it still isn’t appropriate to steal or to kill. You simply can’t condone the action in anyway.

And I too am sorry that your grandfather had to be brought into this, but I see his conduct as sinful. I am not saying that the embryo is more important than the disabled adult - I am only saying that they are equal and that the disabled adult doesn’t have the right to call for the death of the embryo. To explain this better both the embryo and the adult can live. Maybe the disabled adult will remain disabled, maybe his life will be short, but it isn’t an either or. The argument is only construed that way. In reality to defend the rights of the embryo is not to say that it is more important than the adult, but only to say that the paralyzed can’t say, “In order to cure my disability this child must die”. An analogy might also help - if there were a dozen sick men who needed kidneys or livers, or hearts would you side with their right to take that of your child (hypothetically, I know that the organs might not fit)? Of course not! Would this mean you are saying that the child’s life is more important than theirs? No, you’d simply be saying that they had no right to ask for what they were asking for. You’d say preserve the “status quo”.

As for the verse you mentioned - I don’t see the significance of it. It is simply saying that “Anything living is in the blood” and something else about a “sizable merity”, although I can’t translate the second part of the Glossa Ordinaria’s sentence properly.

If one feels inclined to translate the passage is as follows.

Ánima carnis… AUG., quaest. 57 in Lev. Áliquid vitále est in sánguine, etc., usque ad cui tantum méritum acquirébat.

In any case it is not talking about people but instead those animals that were sacraficed upon the altar in atonement for our sins. I don’t see how it could possibly justify the murder of an innocent embryo.

Also as to where it says in the bible that life begins at conception - the church often cites is Jer 1:5-10. While browsing the internet however I found The Bible and Abortion - The Biblical Basis for a Prolife Position. And as for other verses 2Mcc 7:22, Gn 25:21-24 (uses the word children), Is 49:1 (the lord called him from the womb), & Os 9:11, which specifically mentions Ephraim’s glory coming from the time of his conception (although I may be misinterpreting this).

Anyway, the Church says that life begins at conception so that should be good enough for both of us, after all Jesus instructed the St. Peter to feed his sheep.

Catholig

 

[Flem]

''From the Garden of Eden to the Book of Revelations the Bible is one Great Big Teaching on the importance and value of Blood. It is the shed Blood of Christ on the Cross that “makes” a person a Christian in the first place. Christianity is the ultimate sacrificial Blood-Based-Religion in the world! If there is no Blood, then there is no Life

And that is my point, if there is no blood, then there is no life! And it is many days after conception that a fertilized embryo can be said to have rudimentary blood cells. And if there is no blood, and “life is in the blood,” then an embryo without blood cells has no life. If you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, if you believe that “life is in the blood,” as the Holy Scriptures state, then embryos without blood cells should be made available for stem cell research because they have no life, and this national debate on embryonic stem cell research can be resolved and we can move on to other important issues of the day.

Additionally, in the normal course of things, it is several days after conception that an embryo arrives “in the womb,” conception usually occurring in the fallopian tubes. God knows what He is saying when He says He formed us in the womb. By the time you arrived in the womb, or very shortly thereafter, you had blood, you had life, and you were subsequently formed and in due time brought forth into this world we all share.’’

 

[Catholig]

''From the Garden of Eden to the Book of Revelations the Bible is one Great Big Teaching on the importance and value of Blood. It is the shed Blood of Christ on the Cross that “makes” a person a Christian in the first place. Christianity is the ultimate sacrificial Blood-Based-Religion in the world! If there is no Blood, then there is no Life

And that is my point, if there is no blood, then there is no life! And it is many days after conception that a fertilized embryo can be said to have rudimentary blood cells. And if there is no blood, and “life is in the blood,” then an embryo without blood cells has no life. If you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, if you believe that “life is in the blood,” as the Holy Scriptures state, then embryos without blood cells should be made available for stem cell research because they have no life, and this national debate on embryonic stem cell research can be resolved and we can move on to other important issues of the day.

Additionally, in the normal course of things, it is several days after conception that an embryo arrives “in the womb,” conception usually occurring in the fallopian tubes. God knows what He is saying when He says He formed us in the womb. By the time you arrived in the womb, or very shortly thereafter, you had blood, you had life, and you were subsequently formed and in due time brought forth into this world we all share.’’

So you are openly dissenting from the teachings of the Magisterium, who god ordained to guide us - to feed his sheep? You are say that the Church who is meant to be the “pillar and ground of the truth” can error in defining morality? If so how is anything true? Should we support private interpretation of the scripture - and ignore those who god appointed to rule over us and open the scriptures to us and Jesus did to them?

It makes no sense - that is dissent from god’s church. In any case, please if god has so enlightened your understanding explain Os 9:11 to me, for the Glossa Ordinaria doens’t have an article on it.

Catholig

 

[Catholig]

Also Flem why do you keep disacknowledging my replies? You take bits and pieces, but you don’t address every comment as I do. It makes me feel that you are avoiding certain things. For instance how will you reply to my accurate description of the equality of human life which is shown when one doesn’t give into the demands for the life of another. The fact that it isn’t an either or option.

What about the stealing of the embryos stem-cells, without any consent being given by the embryo its self?

What about the taking of its life (which even you admitted to in a previous post)?

How why do you keep neglecting to respond to my points…?

Catholig

 

[Flem]

So you are openly dissenting from the teachings of the Magisterium, who god ordained to guide us - to feed his sheep? You are say that the Church who is meant to be the “pillar and ground of the truth” can error in defining morality? If so how is anything true? Should we support private interpretation of the scripture - and ignore those who god appointed to rule over us and open the scriptures to us and Jesus did to them?

It makes no sense - that is dissent from god’s church. In any case, please if god has so enlightened your understanding explain Os 9:11 to me, for the Glossa Ordinaria doens’t have an article on it.

Catholig

The Magisteriums teachings are not the same as they were 1,000 years ago and In 1,000 years it wont be the same as it is now. The Church is a living-breathing organism that has evolved through the ages and will keep evolving until final judgement.

And yes the Church can error, how are we supposed to learn from our mistakes if we make none? However the core teachings of the Church has always remained the same and you and I may find truth in that.

As for your request for a translation, I have not been able to find a website or article that mentions it. I also am not familiar with it to explain it to you or anyone else for that matter. However I will keep looking, for I too am interested in interpreting it.

 

[Flem]

Also Flem why do you keep disacknowledging my replies? You take bits and pieces, but you don’t address every comment as I do. It makes me feel that you are avoiding certain things. For instance how will you reply to my accurate description of the equality of human life which is shown when one doesn’t give into the demands for the life of another. The fact that it isn’t an either or option.

What about the stealing of the embryos stem-cells, without any consent being given by the embryo its self?

What about the taking of its life (which even you admitted to in a previous post)?

How why do you keep neglecting to respond to my points…?

Catholig

Well the reason I didnt replie to some of your posts was simply because In my view they are null and void due to the fact that Life is in the Blood. But, In the future I will respond to all your points from now on.

 

[holly_potter]

The absence of a right to life movement in the last 6 years tells more than any speech.

That’s because people were afraid they wouldn’t get re-elected. I don’t blame them. But I do congratulate the recent court ruling! :extrahappy:

Only a few are courageous enough to pursue an actively pro-life agenda. It will take a while to educate the public that abortion is wrong, just like it took a while to educate the public that slavery is wrong. William Wilberforce was one courageous guy

And yes, there’s a slow right to life movement, it takes a while to gain momentum. We just started the first pro-life group on my campus (I’m secretary!), and we’re scrambling for some teacher courageous enough to sponsor our group so we can become “official”. One was, but he’s going up for tenure, and we don’t want him to risk his job, and he doesn’t either. Just the facts of life at a state univ.