Liberal Diocese/parish

[suz_slu]

The diocese in which i live is very liberal, as is our parish. Our priest regularly changes the mass parts, we sing songs like “Lean on Me”, and most grievous…we have many gays and lesbians actively involved. Our parish has two couples who just “married” and they are still very involved in ministry. Our priest thinks this is just fine, and not a problem. Some of us have even been told “Well, we can’t control what parishioners do in the bedroom!” There are a few of us that are faithful to catholic teaching, the pope, and the magisterium. We’ve written to our bishop about all these liberalities in our parish, but to no avail. What options do we have to help guide our diocese back to where it should be?

 

[Dauphin]

Run as far away from that parish as you can get, especially if you have children, and do it now. The Church doesn’t require us to worship in a pit of vipers.

Every Catholic has the right to authentic liturgy and orthodox instruction, and if your parish and diocese won’t give it to you, run, and find someone that will.

 

[frommi]

Heaven’s no…not GAY people…

Seriously, are we ever going to move beyond this madness of being so concerned about what people are doing in their bedrooms?

 

[Dauphin]

Heaven’s no…not GAY people…

Seriously, are we ever going to move beyond this madness of being so concerned about what people are doing in their bedrooms?

No, not if the Catholic faith remains. The admonishment of sinners is a responsibility of the priest. If it’s clear that they’re violating the Divine and natural law, and are in grave sin, then the pastor has the responsibility to deny them Holy Communion and remove them from parish ministries until they repent and swear fidelity to Catholic moral teaching.

 

[Rickwood]

The diocese in which i live is very liberal, as is our parish. Our priest regularly changes the mass parts, we sing songs like “Lean on Me”, and most grievous…we have many gays and lesbians actively involved. Our parish has two couples who just “married” and they are still very involved in ministry. Our priest thinks this is just fine, and not a problem. Some of us have even been told “Well, we can’t control what parishioners do in the bedroom!” There are a few of us that are faithful to catholic teaching, the pope, and the magisterium. We’ve written to our bishop about all these liberalities in our parish, but to no avail. What options do we have to help guide our diocese back to where it should be?

That has nothing to do with being “liberal” – it has everything to do with being dissenting or “problematic” as another poster suggested. If you used that language in a letter with your pastor and bishop, I could see how it would not only turn them off, but also cause them to take you less than seriously.

If you are not being spiritually nourished in your current parish and if things don’t appear to be changing anytime soon, I would suggest you considering finding a new Catholic parish.

Pray on it.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . . Our parish has two couples who just “married” and they are still very involved in ministry. Our priest thinks this is just fine, and not a problem. Some of us have even been told “Well, we can’t control what parishioners do in the bedroom!” . . .

I presume the “marriages” did not take place in their bedroom.

 

[Rickwood]

Heaven’s no…not GAY people…

Seriously, are we ever going to move beyond this madness of being so concerned about what people are doing in their bedrooms?

If two homosexuals publicly advertised the notion that they were “married”, they have no business taking part in parish ministry.

 

[Aramis]

Heaven’s no…not GAY people…

Seriously, are we ever going to move beyond this madness of being so concerned about what people are doing in their bedrooms?

When God abolishes the Old Testament prohibition on homosexual and bestial sex.

 

[japhy]

That has nothing to do with being “liberal” – it has everything to do with being dissenting or “problematic” as another poster suggested.

It is not outlandish to say that allowing homosexual “marriages” is a “liberal” decision. You can dissent by being too liberal and you can dissent by being too conservative; yes, at the end of the day, the dissent is what matters, but I don’t think the words “liberal” and “conservative” need to be ditched.

Here’s a set of relevant definitions of liberal:

1. a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
   b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
2. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
   I dare say a Catholic priest who endorses homosexual unions considers himself “not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas”.

 

[suz_slu]

Run as far away from that parish as you can get, especially if you have children, and do it now. The Church doesn’t require us to worship in a pit of vipers.

Every Catholic has the right to authentic liturgy and orthodox instruction, and if your parish and diocese won’t give it to you, run, and find someone that will.

I am a convert to the Church, having been raised by a fundamentalist minister father/mother. I know my faith, and am thankful for the example of many other converts: David Currie, Steve Ray, Marcus Grodi, etc. Having said that, I DO NOT think it is the answer to leave. I have prayed about this for many months and still do not get the “go ahead” that it is time to abandon ship. I know others before me have done that (this is a long standing problem, obviously) and I can’t help but wonder if those people had stayed and put on the armour of God and fought the battle, our parish and diocese would be in a different place right now (of course, they may have not felt that calling, i realize).

I don’t think you are ENTITLED to a “orthodox” liturgy,look at the apostles and what they endured; as well as many brothers and sisters undergoing severe persecution in other parts of the world. And again, i don’t think LEAVING solves anything,i see it as a very selfish act to take care of ME.

In addition, since the entire diocese has issues, it is difficult to find a parish in which i can be involved within a reasonable driving distance. I just don’t understand the Pope allowing bishops like this to stay in power and I don’t get bishops who won’t do the right thing in their diocese when their own souls are on the line.

 

[japhy]

I don’t think you are ENTITLED to a “orthodox” liturgy

The Church says that you are! Here’s a list of your “rights” from the 2004 document Redemptionis Sacramentum (RS) that have to do with the proper celebration of the liturgy:

• the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline (RS, n. 11)
• the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms (RS, n. 12)
• the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium (RS, n. 12)
• the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church (RS, n. 12; cf. 1 Cor 11:17-34; Ecclesia de Eucharistia, n. 52)
• the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated” (RS, n. 18; cf. Ecclesia de Eucharistia, n. 52)
• the right of the Christian people themselves that their diocesan Bishop should take care to prevent the occurrence of abuses in ecclesiastical discipline, especially as regards the ministry of the word, the celebration of the sacraments and sacramentals, the worship of God and devotion to the Saints.%between% (RS, n. 24; cf. CIC, can. 392)
• the right of the community of Christ’s faithful that especially in the Sunday celebration there should customarily be true and suitable sacred music, and that there should always be an altar, vestments and sacred linens that are dignified, proper, and clean, in accordance with the norms (RS, n. 57)
• the right to a celebration of the Eucharist that has been so carefully prepared in all its parts that the word of God is properly and efficaciously proclaimed and explained in it; that the faculty for selecting the liturgical texts and rites is carried out with care according to the norms; and that their faith is duly safeguarded and nourished by the words that are sung in the celebration of the Liturgy (RS, n. 58)
• the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice (RS, n. 92; GIRM, n. 161)
• where the diocesan Bishop has sacred ministers or others whom he can assign to this purpose, the faithful have a right to visit the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist frequently for adoration, and to take part in adoration before the Most Holy Eucharist exposed at least at some time in the course of any given year (RS, n. 139)
• the diocesan Bishop should acknowledge and foster insofar as possible the right of the various groups of Christ’s faithful to form guilds or associations for the carrying out of adoration, even almost continuous adoration. (RS, n. 141)
• the Christian people’s right to have the Eucharist celebrated for them on Sunday, and whenever holydays of obligation or other major feasts occur, and even daily insofar as this is possible (RS, n. 162)
• the lay faithful have the right, barring a case of real impossibility, that no Priest should ever refuse either to celebrate Mass for the people or to have it celebrated by another Priest if the people otherwise would not be able to satisfy the obligation of participating at Mass on Sunday or the other days of precept. (RS, n. 163)
• if participation at the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible on account of the absence of a sacred minister or for some other grave cause,” (cf. CIC, can. 1248 §2; Christi Ecclesia, nn. 1-2)%between%then it is the Christian people’s right that the diocesan Bishop should provide as far as he is able for some celebration to be held on Sundays for that community under his authority and according to the Church’s norms (RS, n. 164)
• any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. (RS, n. 184; cf. CIC, can. 1417 §1)

I just don’t understand the Pope allowing bishops like this to stay in power and I don’t get bishops who won’t do the right thing in their diocese when their own souls are on the line.

It’s hard for the Pope to keep tabs on all his bishops… pray that things will improve, and do what you can.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I just don’t understand the Pope allowing bishops like this to stay in power and I don’t get bishops who won’t do the right thing in their diocese when their own souls are on the line.

Jesus didn’t ‘remove’ Judas though He certainly would have been ‘within His rights’ to do so.

When the Pope appoints a bishop, then the bishop has the ‘choice’ to either use his position for good–or not. Just as Judas had the choice.

Further, unless said Bishop actually goes so far as to publically defy the Pope or to promulgate untruth PLAINLY as untruth. . .the Pope does not then truly KNOW if the Bishop is in fact disobedient. Rarely, very rarely, will a Bishop actually put himself into a situation where he quite clearly ‘separates’ himself from the Church.

A lot of very ‘ambiguous’ language can be so slanted in its ‘tone’ that while on paper it can look ‘orthodox’, when it is said, or ‘put forth’ to be instigated with a ‘nudge-nudge’, ‘wink-wink’ it can be ‘made to appear’ exactly that opposite of orthodox. Couple that with the Bishop’s ‘lip service’ of "of course I am obedient to you, Holy Father’ (with fingers crossed behind back as he speaks). . .and you have the “Judas” puzzle–somebody who was picked for discipleship, may have started out ‘right’ and yet goes wrong --while ‘hiding it’ until the very last.

Jesus never said we wouldn’t have OUR Judases too. And of course, even after his sin, Judas ‘could have’ repented. Same with these bishops if such there be who are deliberately disobedient. . .even now, they could repent, make restitution, and become the true and faithful leaders that we all wish our bishops to be.

As Jesus told St. Peter: We are to forgive not 7 times, not 70 times, but 70 x 7 times. . . so when we have such situations, we should pray all the more for the bishops that if indeed they are failing and falling, that they be brought into the light and ‘change’. . .as, of course, there is always the chance that they may do.

 

[Rickwood]

It is not outlandish to say that allowing homosexual “marriages” is a “liberal” decision. You can dissent by being too liberal and you can dissent by being too conservative; yes, at the end of the day, the dissent is what matters, but I don’t think the words “liberal” and “conservative” need to be ditched.

Here’s a set of relevant definitions of liberal:

1. a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
   b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
2. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
   I dare say a Catholic priest who endorses homosexual unions considers himself “not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas”.

Using the word “liberal” in the manner I was responding to smacks strongly of ignorance. Like it or not this angers some people – even pastors and bishops. Worse it could cause someone not to be taken too seriously or dismissed altogether.

 

[Rickwood]

I am a convert to the Church, having been raised by a fundamentalist minister father/mother. I know my faith, and am thankful for the example of many other converts: David Currie, Steve Ray, Marcus Grodi, etc. Having said that, I DO NOT think it is the answer to leave. I have prayed about this for many months and still do not get the “go ahead” that it is time to abandon ship. I know others before me have done that (this is a long standing problem, obviously) and I can’t help but wonder if those people had stayed and put on the armour of God and fought the battle, our parish and diocese would be in a different place right now (of course, they may have not felt that calling, i realize).

I don’t think you are ENTITLED to a “orthodox” liturgy,look at the apostles and what they endured; as well as many brothers and sisters undergoing severe persecution in other parts of the world. And again, i don’t think LEAVING solves anything,i see it as a very selfish act to take care of ME.

In addition, since the entire diocese has issues, it is difficult to find a parish in which i can be involved within a reasonable driving distance. I just don’t understand the Pope allowing bishops like this to stay in power and I don’t get bishops who won’t do the right thing in their diocese when their own souls are on the line.

Your response is far better than the one you were responding to. One caveat though. Some people have the necessary resolve to “hang in there” and still be nourished by the Mass. For those it’s almost always better to stay.

On the other hand alleged abuses and irregularities really do a number on some people – likely to the person you were responding to and the OP. It’s often best they try to find a new home…

Ultimately they need to pray on it.

 

[belgianwaffles9]

The diocese in which i live is very liberal, as is our parish. Our priest regularly changes the mass parts, we sing songs like “Lean on Me”, and most grievous…we have many gays and lesbians actively involved. Our parish has two couples who just “married” and they are still very involved in ministry. Our priest thinks this is just fine, and not a problem. Some of us have even been told “Well, we can’t control what parishioners do in the bedroom!” There are a few of us that are faithful to catholic teaching, the pope, and the magisterium. We’ve written to our bishop about all these liberalities in our parish, but to no avail. What options do we have to help guide our diocese back to where it should be?

I’m stuck in california, too. I’m there for 9 months out of the year attending college.

As the Pastor of my absolutely amazing beautiful reverent parish in the diocese of Arlington said when he found out: “Lord help you.”

Which diocese do you live in in California? Maybe we on the board can help you find some more reverent parishes.

 

[Dauphin]

I am a convert to the Church, having been raised by a fundamentalist minister father/mother. I know my faith, and am thankful for the example of many other converts: David Currie, Steve Ray, Marcus Grodi, etc. Having said that, I DO NOT think it is the answer to leave. I have prayed about this for many months and still do not get the “go ahead” that it is time to abandon ship. I know others before me have done that (this is a long standing problem, obviously) and I can’t help but wonder if those people had stayed and put on the armour of God and fought the battle, our parish and diocese would be in a different place right now (of course, they may have not felt that calling, i realize).

I don’t think you are ENTITLED to a “orthodox” liturgy,look at the apostles and what they endured; as well as many brothers and sisters undergoing severe persecution in other parts of the world. And again, i don’t think LEAVING solves anything,i see it as a very selfish act to take care of ME.

In addition, since the entire diocese has issues, it is difficult to find a parish in which i can be involved within a reasonable driving distance. I just don’t understand the Pope allowing bishops like this to stay in power and I don’t get bishops who won’t do the right thing in their diocese when their own souls are on the line.

This sort of public scandal can’t be tolerated. There’s a reason that the Church has excommunicated those who offend against the faith from its earliest days. A community infected with heresy and grave moral depravity is not the sort of place a Catholic should be worshipping. They should be treated as heathens and publicans.

You are no more morally compelled to stay in this parish than you would be compelled to remain under an Arian or Jansenist pastor.

 

[Rickwood]

**I’m stuck in california, too. ** I’m there for 9 months out of the year attending college.

As the Pastor of my absolutely amazing beautiful reverent parish in the diocese of Arlington said when he found out: “Lord help you.”

Which diocese do you live in in California? Maybe we on the board can help you find some more reverent parishes.

I’m sad you feel the need to denigrate California. Envy is always a toughie – even when depicted as scorn. As an 9th generation native Californio I’m thankful you’ll be leaving for good one day.

 

[bpbasilphx]

When God abolishes the Old Testament prohibition on homosexual and bestial sex.

WHY do people always gratuitously link homosexuality with bestiality, pedophilia, or incest?

 

[crenfro]

We’ve written to our bishop about all these liberalities in our parish, but to no avail. What options do we have to help guide our diocese back to where it should be?

Can you write to the Vatican and let them know what’s going on?

 

[Rickwood]

When God abolishes the Old Testament prohibition on homosexual and bestial sex.

WHY do people always gratuitously link homosexuality with bestiality, pedophilia, or incest?

Because engaging in homosexual sex acts is degenerate behavior and a mortal sin, as are bestiality, pedophilia, and incest.