Liberal Diocese/parish

[maurin]

If you’ve been to twelve parishes and found all them wanting then I would think that the problem is not with them but you.

all knowing and all seeing, are you?.

what do expect of the church and priests ?

to be faithful and to teach the faith. don’t you?

Bishops and priests are human and are bound to commit folly. are you judging by Church standards or your own?

I don’t know, let’s see, does contradicting and questioning Doctrine and Dogma qualify as folly or heresy, in your most esteemed opinion?

Does the Church have to live up to your standards or it’s own?

I would think the Church local would live up to the standards of the Church Universal, or don’t you think it should?

Running away solves nothing and nothing will change if you do.If you think that the parish should change- then fight for it. Get on committees-parish councils anything to voice your opinion.

boy, what great advice. what else do you have for me?

A few friendswanted to have adoration- but the pastor said the church was too small and no one would come. So we got together bought a monstrance gave it to the pastor and basically said’ now we would like to use it". Adoration started small ,but built slowly- now in our new church we’re going to have an adoration chapel! persistence wins!

I’m so happy your Parish decided to finally institute a Catholic Devotion. Congratulations. Now would you like to come to this Diocese and try the same?

Put the armor of God on and nothing will be impossible.But try to be non confrontational about it.

you mean like you weren’t at the beginning of your post?

None of the bishops or priests like to lose face.martin luther left in a huff and with anger - see what happened then?Reconciliation - not division.

what color is the sky in the part of the world you live in? really, it’s a sincere question.

 

[maurin]

You are quite fortunate to have 12 parish’s within 30 minutes of your home.

yes, when I moved here 4 months ago I thought, great!

I will admit I have heard a few shocking things in homilies. Maybe a half dozen shocking things in as many homilies over the past 20-25 years or so.
Just about every one was made by a visiting priest. Often a retired visiting priest.

oh my.

To suggest one could hear “the most shocking things in homilies that contradicted both the Faith and Morals” in a dozen parishes within 30 minutes of their house doesn’t quite pass the smell test.

Tantum Ergo answered this quite nicely. But I am so happy that you live in an area where the Faith is not under attack from the Clergy. I don’t.

 

[maurin]

Because it hasn’t been your experience, it is therefore suspect on any count?

Anyone who lives in a large city or a predominantly Catholic area (Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Chicago, San Francisco, to give just a few examples,) can easily have a dozen parishes within a 30 minute drive.

Heck, there were a dozen parishes within a 30 minute drive for me in rural Vermont, thank you.

Further, these are usually in the same diocese. It isn’t surprising that if there is a ‘difficulty’ regarding abuse that it will be found in other parishes. Naming no names, but we are all aware of bishops (and may God watch over and guide and guard all our bishops and priests, and bless them) and priests who routinely have spoken in a heterodox manner on Church teaching.

The priests who are enthusiastic about women priests, gay rights including gay marriage, ‘intercommunion’, downplay Christ’s divinity and accent the "human end’ not just as ‘part’ but as the whole, and the ‘best’ part of Christ, counsel their flock that birth control is fine, premarital sex is all right if your conscience says so. . .You really think that this doesn’t happen? In Church, in the homily, and in the bulletins, and in the meetings of the councils, and down through the DRE (director of religious education) and thus to the children being instructed not in Catholic faith but in the ‘agenda’ that some think the Catholic faith ‘should be?’

I am very glad you have never encountered this phenomenon. It exists. It has been worse. . .no doubt there are places where it is still bad. . .I trust in my Church and I know the Church has never led anyone astray but sometimes its leaders and its ‘teachers’ have. To think that because you haven’t seen it that such tales are at best hysterical witch hunting from over scrupulous zanies and at worst deliberate attacks. . .is being both judgmental and short-sighted IMO.

At the very least you could acknowledge that if somebody says it, they at least believe it, and it is always possible even if you haven’t experienced it, and you could pray for all Catholics and indeed all people, instead of implying that all the problem is in the ‘person’ and he could not possibly be correct in his experience. . .because it isn’t your experience.

I think that some people are either really lucky and live within Parish boundaries where the Faith is alive and thriving and they can’t believe that something different is really out there, OR, they have not been taught any better and they believe that this is how the Church always worshipped and taught.

What do you think?

 

[ethelzguy]

Excellent posting…

Something is broken if one has problems with 12 parishes.

Why I would advocate someone moving if they were not being nourished, having problems with 12 parishes is beyond the pale.

You make a good point. Stop and work for real reform. The Church would be in far better shape today if more of that would have been done over the past 40 or so years.

I would be curious to see a listing of the “problems” with the 12 churches/parishes.

I have been on several threads, where claims of this nature have been made, but nobody wants to share, specifically, what the individual alleged “abuses” are/were.

 

[Walking_Home]

I think that some people are either really lucky and live within Parish boundaries where the Faith is alive and thriving and they can’t believe that something different is really out there, OR, they have not been taught any better and they believe that this is how the Church always worshipped and taught.

What do you think?

---

It could be a combination – some may be lucky–some don’t know better and believe aberrations are normal --and also it seems there are others who knowingly justify the aberrations. I say knowingly because they know what the Church says --yet will try to find any type of excuse to cover for the aberrations.

 

[James0235]

I would be curious to see a listing of the “problems” with the 12 churches/parishes.

I have been on several threads, where claims of this nature have been made, but nobody wants to share, specifically, what the individual alleged “abuses” are/were.

I’d be more than willing to name the specific Liturgical abuses I have witnessed as well as the parish where they occurred, and the name of the priest. I’d even be more than willing to give details on which bishop I wrote to about which abuses. I could also tell you which friends wrote to that same bishop and which abuses they mentioned and which parishes they witnessed them in.

But, forum rules forbid that. Which is a little odd. The Church says that Liturgical abuses are actually damaging to our faith. It seems that the proper thing to do out of charity is tell people which parishes to steer clear of and why.

But, if anyone ever wants to know I could name the abuses and quote the Church documents showing they are abuses without naming parish or priest.

If anyone ever claims that they witness abuses they should be able to do the same - otherwise how would they even know they are abuses?

James

 

[juliamajor]

Because it hasn’t been your experience, it is therefore suspect on any count?

Anyone who lives in a large city or a predominantly Catholic area (Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Chicago, San Francisco, to give just a few examples,) can easily have a dozen parishes within a 30 minute drive.

Heck, there were a dozen parishes within a 30 minute drive for me in rural Vermont, thank you.

Further, these are usually in the same diocese. It isn’t surprising that if there is a ‘difficulty’ regarding abuse that it will be found in other parishes. Naming no names, but we are all aware of bishops (and may God watch over and guide and guard all our bishops and priests, and bless them) and priests who routinely have spoken in a heterodox manner on Church teaching.

The priests who are enthusiastic about women priests, gay rights including gay marriage, ‘intercommunion’, downplay Christ’s divinity and accent the "human end’ not just as ‘part’ but as the whole, and the ‘best’ part of Christ, counsel their flock that birth control is fine, premarital sex is all right if your conscience says so. . .You really think that this doesn’t happen? In Church, in the homily, and in the bulletins, and in the meetings of the councils, and down through the DRE (director of religious education) and thus to the children being instructed not in Catholic faith but in the ‘agenda’ that some think the Catholic faith ‘should be?’

I am very glad you have never encountered this phenomenon. It exists. It has been worse. . .no doubt there are places where it is still bad. . .I trust in my Church and I know the Church has never led anyone astray but sometimes its leaders and its ‘teachers’ have. To think that because you haven’t seen it that such tales are at best hysterical witch hunting from over scrupulous zanies and at worst deliberate attacks. . .is being both judgmental and short-sighted IMO.

At the very least you could acknowledge that if somebody says it, they at least believe it, and it is always possible even if you haven’t experienced it, and you could pray for all Catholics and indeed all people, instead of implying that all the problem is in the ‘person’ and he could not possibly be correct in his experience. . .because it isn’t your experience.

Let’s not play tit for tat- it’s unbecoming in adults. I would have my doubts about that same person if they said they could’nt find a decent hamburger in twelve different places! What is the criteria for these priests and pastors? It seems you both see everything wrong - is your view so skewed that you can’t see anything right?yeah- I really do find it hard to believe thee isn’t a loyal orthodox priest in twelve parishes. the church is a big tent and there are very many views. Thank God laity don’t have the power of excommunication- from my point of view there are folks in residence who are more Catholic then the pope and would get rid of any one who wasn’t a traditionalist or mega orthodox. Difffering views have been part of the church from the beginning - it’s when people split that we have the problem that brings serious division-like ultra traditionalist.- Pax Christi

 

[ethelzguy]

I’d be more than willing to name the specific Liturgical abuses I have witnessed as well as the parish where they occurred, and the name of the priest. I’d even be more than willing to give details on which bishop I wrote to about which abuses. I could also tell you which friends wrote to that same bishop and which abuses they mentioned and which parishes they witnessed them in.

But, forum rules forbid that. Which is a little odd. The Church says that Liturgical abuses are actually damaging to our faith. It seems that the proper thing to do out of charity is tell people which parishes to steer clear of and why.

But, if anyone ever wants to know I could name the abuses and quote the Church documents showing they are abuses without naming parish or priest.

If anyone ever claims that they witness abuses they should be able to do the same - otherwise how would they even know they are abuses?

James

I fully realize that forum rules prohibit such. However, I would be interested in just a list, like:

Parish A: regularly allows lay homilist

Parish B: regularly allows EMHCs to purify vessels after Communion

Parish C: priest regularly uses glass chalice…

etc…

When someone tells us, that out of 8 to 12 parishes in a given city/area, NONE of them are good enough, I think we should all pause and examine what is being said.

 

[James0235]

I fully realize that forum rules prohibit such. However, I would be interested in just a list, like:

Parish A: regularly allows lay homilist

Parish B: regularly allows EMHCs to purify vessels after Communion

Parish C: priest regularly uses glass chalice…

etc…

When someone tells us, that out of 8 to 12 parishes in a given city/area, NONE of them are good enough, I think we should all pause and examine what is being said.

I knew that is what you meant. That’s why I added:
**But, if anyone ever wants to know I could name the abuses and quote the Church documents showing they are abuses without naming parish or priest.

If anyone ever claims that they witness abuses they should be able to do the same - otherwise how would they even know they are abuses?**

If someone is sure that they are witnesses an abuse then the least they should be able to do is to show that it is actually an abuse.

But, claiming that 8 out of 12 parishes are not acceptable because of Liturgical abuses doesn’t really raise the red flags with me as it seems to with you. I have personally witnessed such things.

Some diocese are just worse than others when it comes to celebrating the Liturgy. But, I can definitely see things improving. I am really impressed with some of the newly ordained priests I have met. And with just about all of the seminarians I have met recently.

And the worst parish in the diocese is down to only Liturgical abuses now. The priests there have agreed to stop preaching heresy. And they have even apologized for it.

James

 

[suz_slu]

I fully realize that forum rules prohibit such. However, I would be interested in just a list, like:

Parish A: regularly allows lay homilist

Parish B: regularly allows EMHCs to purify vessels after Communion

Parish C: priest regularly uses glass chalice…

QUOTE]

Well, i started this discussion, and our parish allows all those things; and more, as i stated: gay/lesbian couples married (not in the parish, but celebrated by other members of parish) serve as EMs and Lectors; same couples have kids, baptized in the parish; fluff preaching (last week it was relating the Gospel to songs from “Oliver”); makes contributions to NACDLGAM; regularly includes “Lean on Me” and “What if God were one of us” (google lyrics)";

Again, this is all over our diocese, so no, it doesn’t surprise me that there are 12 parishes within driving distance that are unorthodox.

However, I didn’t mean to start this thread to cause dissention and division. I don’t come to these forums very often for that reason.

 

[japhy]

I fully realize that forum rules prohibit such. However, I would be interested in just a list, like.

You really want it? I can give information on two parishes near where I live.

A: Visiting priests pour Precious Blood from one chalice to another. EMHCs purify sacred vessels after Mass. Some words of the Mass are changed regularly (“This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world; happy are we who are called to this supper.” is one example).

B: EMHCs receive Holy Communion improperly (in the manner of concelebrants). Improper Memorial Acclamation used sometimes (“We remember how you loved us…”).

Also, as a matter of taste, I think parish B actually used a saxaphone during a Communion hymn during Lent; and no, they weren’t playing the blues.

I haven’t been to 12 parishes in my area. I make it a point not to attend a Mass for the purpose of seeking or cataloging liturgical abuses, so I would rather not do a survey like that.

 

[maurin]

Let’s not play tit for tat- it’s unbecoming in adults. I would have my doubts about that same person if they said they could’nt find a decent hamburger in twelve different places! What is the criteria for these priests and pastors? It seems you both see everything wrong - is your view so skewed that you can’t see anything right?yeah- I really do find it hard to believe thee isn’t a loyal orthodox priest in twelve parishes. the church is a big tent and there are very many views. Thank God laity don’t have the power of excommunication- from my point of view there are folks in residence who are more Catholic then the pope and would get rid of any one who wasn’t a traditionalist or mega orthodox. Difffering views have been part of the church from the beginning - it’s when people split that we have the problem that brings serious division-like ultra traditionalist.- Pax Christi

Tantum Ergo,

It seems that my latter, and not my former hypothesis was correct.

 

[maurin]

I would be curious to see a listing of the “problems” with the 12 churches/parishes.

I have been on several threads, where claims of this nature have been made, but nobody wants to share, specifically, what the individual alleged “abuses” are/were.

ethel,

I have already replied to your first request. go back in this thread and you will find it.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

The diocese in which i live is very liberal, as is our parish. Our priest regularly changes the mass parts, we sing songs like “Lean on Me”, and most grievous…we have many gays and lesbians actively involved. Our parish has two couples who just “married” and they are still very involved in ministry. Our priest thinks this is just fine, and not a problem. Some of us have even been told “Well, we can’t control what parishioners do in the bedroom!” There are a few of us that are faithful to catholic teaching, the pope, and the magisterium. We’ve written to our bishop about all these liberalities in our parish, but to no avail. What options do we have to help guide our diocese back to where it should be?

RUN!!!

Contact someone from the Vatican also!!!
This is completely unaccepptable!

 

[juliamajor]

Tantum Ergo,

It seems that my latter, and not my former hypothesis was correct.

Oh , I’m shattered by the analysis-

 

[maurin]

I haven’t been to 12 parishes in my area. I make it a point not to attend a Mass for the purpose of seeking or cataloging liturgical abuses, so I would rather not do a survey like that.

I think you have misunderstood the reasons for my visits. 4 months ago I was transferred into this Diocese. I was trying to find a Parish which was faithful to the Church. I spent weeks in some, months in others.

What I found:

Priests declaring that God will understand if one follows their conscience in the areas of Morality, including by name contraception, homosexuality and masturbation. Priests and Deacons consistently beginning certain prayers with “The Lord is with you” (didn’t this forum’s founder specifically address this in “Last Writes” in “This Rock?”). The ignoring of the Agnus Dei while hugging and kissing continued. This was not called the Rite of Peace, but the 'exchange of the greeting. A Priest who, before Mass begins, reclines on the Baptismal Pool, using the Font as a backrest as he talks while the Parish announcements are going on. Many Sanctuaries stripped of any image of the Crucified Christ during the Mass. 2 different Priests who on more than one occassion sang solos and bowed to the audience’s applause after Communion. Many of these Parishes are invited with vigor by the Priest to cross the aisles and join hands before the Our Father.

I can promise you I hadn’t gone looking for anything but a Catholic Mass.

 

[maurin]

Oh , I’m shattered by the analysis-

you were right above. It is quite unbecoming in adults.

 

[Rickwood]

ethel,

I have already replied to your first request. go back in this thread and you will find it.

You really should look internally…

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by japhy View Post

I haven’t been to 12 parishes in my area. I make it a point not to attend a Mass for the purpose of seeking or cataloging liturgical abuses, so I would rather not do a survey like that.

I think you have misunderstood the reasons for my visits. 4 months ago I was transferred into this Diocese. I was trying to find a Parish which was faithful to the Church. I spent weeks in some, months in others.

What I found:

Priests declaring that God will understand if one follows their conscience in the areas of Morality, including by name contraception, homosexuality and masturbation. Priests and Deacons consistently beginning certain prayers with “The Lord is with you” (didn’t this forum’s founder specifically address this in “Last Writes” in “This Rock?”). The ignoring of the Agnus Dei while hugging and kissing continued. This was not called the Rite of Peace, but the 'exchange of the greeting. A Priest who, before Mass begins, reclines on the Baptismal Pool, using the Font as a backrest as he talks while the Parish announcements are going on. Many Sanctuaries stripped of any image of the Crucified Christ during the Mass. 2 different Priests who on more than one occassion sang solos and bowed to the audience’s applause after Communion. Many of these Parishes are invited with vigor by the Priest to cross the aisles and join hands before the Our Father.

I can promise you I hadn’t gone looking for anything but a Catholic Mass.

---

maurin — I do not believe Japhy’s comment was meant for you.

 

[maurin]

---

maurin — I do not believe Japhy’s comment was meant for you.

maybe…but the reference to ‘12 Parishes’ is a reference to my experiences in this Diocese.