Liberation theology and prosperity

[Entrylevel]

Disturbing to me as an economic geologist is the shortage of critical thinking around heavy industry and it’s important role in the developing world. The prosperous nations of the world have all evolved from hewers of wood and haulers of water to become mature prosperous societies. Hernando de Soto (see his web site) has pointed out that much of the friction comes from weak and non-existent land title law in most of the developing world. Title is a serious source of friction. Another source is political corruption. A third source is liberation, leftist, theology.

The squandering of resource wealth by sisters and priests who are seriously uninformed in history and economics is preventing the creation of good, well paying jobs in much of Central America, and elsewhere. The spin off from mining is commonly of the order of 10 times the direct hiring. Billions go directly into the Country in the form of wages, infrastructure, taxes and royalties.

Why do church members, Roman Catholic sisters and priests so often oppose economic development in poor countries? Where does the Vatican stand on this issue? I find it repulsively backward to see newreel clips of a priest leading peasants in a fight against a mining Company to protect a ‘holy’ mountain in Peru. It strikes me as pagan opportunism driven by leftist ideology. The path to hell is paved with their good intentions.

 

[dmelosi]

What is a Christian athiest?

 

[Entrylevel]

Not the point of my post. I believe Jesus Christ was a genius and that should be enough about my beliefs.

 

[dmelosi]

Not the point of my post. I believe Jesus Christ was a genius and that should be enough about my beliefs.

I am sorry, not trying to derail post, but good to know where you are coming from as this is your first post.

 

[manualman]

The situation is more complex than you imply. Spent much time in Latin American nations? I did a short mission project outside a Bolivian city once and it was very instructive. The clergy there don’t oppose development and resource exploitation. They oppose the robber baron philosophy which usually accompanies it. When a foreign corporation proposes a new mine in a remote area, they almost never pay well, provide safe working conditions, care for injured workers, protect the local environment from pollution, or look ahead to what will come for the region once the mine is played out.

The leftists, religious and otherwise, are reacting against a very real and horrifying problem. Foreign corporations are there not to develop, but to cash in. The directors of the corporation do not live there. Their children will not grow up in the shadow of the facility. They don’t know the names of the kids who starve when their father is killed in a preventable mine accident…

Some react by making a different mistake. They decry development and industry and use of natural resources for economic gain. The Liberation Theology folks go further and imply that the suffering is caused by the sinfulness of rich folks and that the problem would be resolved if the rich folks were deprived of their wealth. They fail to see that the state is often a worse tyrant than a foreign corporation.

They’d be better to work for fairer deals that result in LOCAL management and eventually local ownership of the facilities. When the mining and factory facilities are owned locally, the owner protects his best interests, which are financial AND social and environmental. You must give enough to attract the capital, but not allow exploitation that takes more than it gives.

 

[Entrylevel]

Its a perception issue. You analysis is largely correct, but as you say, it is not simple - from the developer’s side. Communication could go a long way to move the poverty level down. I respectfully suggest that times have changed. Wages have changed. Robber barons no longer exist. The demand for commodities from Asia assures a ready market for commodities at a higher than historic price for a growth cycle projected to extend as long as that at the end of world war two or longer.

When a mining project reaches development and production enormous quantities of money and infrastructure are required which can and does uplift a region in a way that no other development can. Money is raised on global capital markets and used for bridges, roads, wages, health care, and ultimately taxes that can be used, if there is a will, for schools and hospitals. Most of the money raised stays in circulation in the local area and provides spin off into all forms of human activity. That will include steel, concrete, fuel, and basic infrastructure that benefits everyone.

The Company expects to produce a product or commodity that will be used to build power lines, roads or other modern conveniences. The profit comes back to shareholders as the share price appreciates, if the Company is successful. The cash flow from the project is used to create more prosperity by increasing efficiencies and and improving everyone’s life. If the mine has a short life, jurisdictions impose reclamation bonds to assure enviromnmental damage is redeemable and of short duration. Mining Companies cannot build mines in most jurisdictions unless they can demonstrate to government that the they will have preserved sufficient capital for reclamation at the end of the project life. Fifteen years may be short, but many mines these days cannot proceed unless the reserves are large and the mine life is quite long. The ancillary benefit to society is usually 5-10 indirect jobs for each direct hire.

The direct jobs pay well, and many are typically heavy industry jobs driving trucks or other machinery that are appropriate for men and women in developing countries. In addition, heavy industry is now well integrated into the computer age and a modern mine has many high tech remote control jobs appropriate for the computer literate or those willing to learn.The goal of every Company that I work with is to use local people rather than expatriates, as soon as the transfer can occur.

Corporate social responsibility is evolving to cover the range from early grass roots exploration to full production. That was not the case in the time of robber barons, but thankfully times have changed. Men and women in the mining industry of the western world are aware of the excesses and past disasters and will never let that happen again. We all have families and kids and want to live in a better world. The developed world went through the heavy industrial stage and survived in spite of the excesses. With better knowledge, the benefits are greater now than ever and with modern reclamation and environmental monitoring, mining can raise the standard of life for the entire world at minimal cost.

The friction of liberation theology and NGO ideology is incorrectly placed. The developing world needs private property law and transparency in business dealings. The difference is clear once you look at Hernando de Soto’s web site. The developing world’s people do not own their land, and cannot grow in prosperity. The corruption of local business and government is the other core issue. Allowing development of worthy projects must evolve along with consciousness of what the real problems are and how to grow the capacity to engender prosperity.

It serves the left to keep people in poverty. Local people want to work.

Sincerely yours,

Entrylevel

 

[Amolibri]

"Robber barons no longer exist."[SIGN][/SIGN]



…and what is an economic geologist? A mine owner???

 

[vern_humphrey]

"Robber barons no longer exist."[SIGN][/SIGN]



…and what is an economic geologist? A mine owner???

The problem is that robber barons – or more accurately, Caudillos, exist everywhere in Latin America. The most hopeful poilitical changes wind up with more of the same – look at Peru as an example. A Japanese President turns out to be just as corrupt as his predecessors.

 

[Amolibri]

The problem is that robber barons – or more accurately, Caudillos, exist everywhere in Latin America. The most hopeful poilitical changes wind up with more of the same – look at Peru as an example. A Japanese President turns out to be just as corrupt as his predecessors.

…and let us ask the former Enron employees about this subject!!! robbing comes in all nationalities… and places.

 

[vern_humphrey]

…and let us ask the former Enron employees about this subject!!! robbing comes in all nationalities… and places.

How is that relevant to this discussion? You’d be hard put to name a revolution in Latin America that didn’t produce a brutal dictator in the end.

So I say to the proponents of Liberaltion Theology what the Stranger said to Smiley, “I don’t see no pints about that frawg that’s any better than any other frawg.”

 

[Entrylevel]

And what is an economic geologist? A geologist who understands the real value of the resource that you will not allow the poor to have access to. Just an objective analyst of the way prosperity can be leveraged for prosperity and the benefit of mankind. Where do you think the prosperity comes from? We do not steal it from you. We can show you how to build it if you were not so afraid of giving up mind control. But you steal the future from your kids with your ideological ignorance.

There is a great movie on the WWW called “Mine Your Own Business” about non-governmental organisations preventing people who want to work in mining from doing so. The left and the NGOs biggest fear is they will no longer will be able to control people’s minds once the workers acquire access to a practical education or money to send their kids to school. Maybe you need to reread the thread.

Enron has nothing to do with the thread.

Sincerely yours,

Entrylevel

 

[manualman]

Entrylevel, I’m sorry, but your sentiments are entirely one-sided and naive. They suggest you have never actually been out of the country and witnessed what really goes on in the third world.

Your description of the process is RIGHT on for a new mine proposed in, say, Wyoming. But it does NOT work that way in Sucre, Bolivia. Politicians are bribed to avoid environmental regulation, taxation and reclamation, shoddy rail lines are placed using materials and methods that will not long outlast the mines, skilled positions are filled by foreign workers who live in temporary trailer parks(cheaper than educating locals)…

I’m sorry, but Robber Barons still exist. They have just moved operations from the US to easier pickins. Why? Because the system is built such that the regular investor only sees the bottom line and is not knowledgeable about how it came to be. A midlevel multinational corp executive who takes your approach will get his economic butt kicked by the one who takes the approach outlined above. Stock in that company goes up, he gets promoted and does it all again in his next, larger assignment.

Investment and development is GOOD, but only when it happens the way you described it. THAT only happens when the local government is strong and generally honest (which is tragically rare in the third world).

 

[vern_humphrey]

Investment and development is GOOD, but only when it happens the way you described it. THAT only happens when the local government is strong and generally honest (which is tragically rare in the third world).

Which is the whole problem – with good government, third world nations would not be third world nations. They would long since have moved into the first tier.

 

[manualman]

I used to think that too Vern. But I don’t think it is just a run of bad luck that has lead to such a steady string of corrupt leaders in spite of dozens of revolutions sparked by such conditions in the first place. I think it is the extremely rare man, if he exists at all, who has the drive to get to government power in such an environment, but with sufficient integrity to resist the corruption opportunities.

To me, that says the solution requires more than just a cluck of the tongue about how those savages just can’t get their act together.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I used to think that too Vern. But I don’t think it is just a run of bad luck that has lead to such a steady string of corrupt leaders in spite of dozens of revolutions sparked by such conditions in the first place. I think it is the extremely rare man, if he exists at all, who has the drive to get to government power in such an environment, but with sufficient integrity to resist the corruption opportunities.

To me, that says the solution requires more than just a cluck of the tongue about how those savages just can’t get their act together.

It isn’t bad luck, it’s fundamental cultural issues. As a former president said, “Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different outcomes is insanity by definition.”

It isn’t a matter of a cluck of the tongue, nor is it a matter of simply blowing off the results of dozens of revolutions that all degenerated into despotism.

Caudilloism (the tendency for strong chieftains to emerge and rule by force) is deeply ingrained into the culture – so much so that when I did a project for the IRS looking at ways of getting Latins to file income tax returns, we ran up against it. The solution was to find the caudillos in the local community, give them some instruction in filing tax returns, and let them drum up business.

The United States has interfered many times in Latin American affairs – and often with real justification. The best we’ve ever been able to do is find a new strongman and support him. As Franklin Roosevelt said about a certain Latin American strongman, “I know he’s an SOB. But he’s our SOB.”

 

[Amolibri]

The United States has interfered many times in Latin American affairs – and often with real justification. The best we’ve ever been able to do is find a new strongman and support him. As Franklin Roosevelt said about a certain Latin American strongman, “I know he’s an SOB. But he’s our SOB.”

I see…“real” justification (and control) …

 

[vern_humphrey]

I see…“real” justification (and control) …

You leave me wondering “What is she (or he) trying to say here?”

 

[Amolibri]

You leave me wondering “What is she (or he) trying to say here?”

I see elitism and that “WE know it all” attitude in your post, sir. Is that what we promote with our “get **our **strongman and support him”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I see elitism and that “WE know it all” attitude in your post, sir. Is that what we promote with our “get **our **strongman and support him”.

And I see elitism and a “holier than thou” attitude in your post, sir (or ma’am.)

What is it that causes you to reject straighforward recounting of history? Why must you degenerate into personal attacks?

 

[Amolibri]

I see…“real” justification (and control) …

Why must you accuse me…this is my opinion…what you are saying is quite apparent to me. I will retract my opinion if it’s so offensive. Your quotes speak for themselves.