Liberty or Prosperity?

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Julius Caesar in “The Gallic Wars” wrote:
“Human nature is universally imbued with a desire for liberty, and a hatred for servitude.”

Sallust, a contemporary who witnessed Caesar end the Roman Republic, wrote:
" Only a few prefer liberty - the majority seek nothing more than fair masters."

Considering the events of our time and the issues under debate in the election, I think there is a dilemma for us in these ancient voices.

Who was right? Do we really want liberty with all it implies, or do we want prosperity no matter the sacrifice of liberty?
 
Yes 😉

humans are Humans are gregarious creatures.
We form complex hierarchical social structures

Complete liberty, independent of others may work for isolated individuals but is no way to run a civilization.
Material prosperity is not a bad thing and is often best achieved by being a member of or cooperating with a larger group.
gregariuos creatures.
we form complex herarchical social structures
 
Yes 😉

humans are Humans are gregarious creatures.
We form complex hierarchical social structures

Complete liberty, independent of others may work for isolated individuals but is no way to run a civilization.
Material prosperity is not a bad thing and is often best achieved by being a member of or cooperating with a larger group.
gregariuos creatures.
we form complex herarchical social structures
So you are with Sallust?
 
Julius Caesar in “The Gallic Wars” wrote:
“Human nature is universally imbued with a desire for liberty, and a hatred for servitude.”

Sallust, a contemporary who witnessed Caesar end the Roman Republic, wrote:
" Only a few prefer liberty - the majority seek nothing more than fair masters."

Considering the events of our time and the issues under debate in the election, I think there is a dilemma for us in these ancient voices.

Who was right? Do we really want liberty with all it implies, or do we want prosperity no matter the sacrifice of liberty?
Are you implying that liberty and prosperity are mutually exclusive?
 
True liberty is in Jesus Christ, and the man who seeks first the Kingdom of God in Him, to him will be given also true prosperity.
 
Are you implying that liberty and prosperity are mutually exclusive?
I believe we are in the midst of that experiment. Can a society so inured to wealth and comfort leave it behind to preserve its liberty?

Augustus gave the Romans 50 years of prosperity, freedom from civil unrest and a well regulated society. All he demanded in return was the end of the Republic. At the assassination of Caligula, grown men wept to believe that the liberty not known by them but only by their grandfathers would be restored - only to have the hope extinguished with the appointment by the military of Claudius to the throne.

They are not a direct precedent to our situation, but are there similarities?
 
Yes 😉
Complete liberty, independent of others may work for isolated individuals but is no way to run a civilization.
Liberty doesn’t require isolation so long as social structures operate on a voluntary basis, such that no one is compelled to participate in anything against their will.
Material prosperity is not a bad thing and is often best achieved by being a member of or cooperating with a larger group.
gregariuos creatures.
Again, this is fine so long as membership or cooperation with the larger group is voluntary.

If prosperity is best achieved by participation in a larger group, then it should logically follow that the larger group should not have any trouble finding people who want to participate voluntarily.

If people don’t want to participate on a purely voluntary basis, then chances are that they don’t believe the large group is the best way to achieve prosperity. In this case, the larger group is diminishing one person’s prosperity in order to increase the prosperity of another.** That is, one man’s prosperity comes at the expense of another man’s liberty.** That might mean taxing the rich to help the poor, or it could also mean enslaving the poor to serve the rich.

Ultimately, universal prosperity is impossible without universal liberty.
we form complex herarchical social structures
Liberty only requires that those social structures are voluntary.
 
True liberty is in Jesus Christ, and the man who seeks first the Kingdom of God in Him, to him will be given also true prosperity.
I agree with you, but for the purpose of this conversation, could you comment on the practical application of your comment in regard to the socio-political arena?
 
I believe we are in the midst of that experiment. Can a society so inured to wealth and comfort leave it behind to preserve its liberty?

Augustus gave the Romans 50 years of prosperity, freedom from civil unrest and a well regulated society. All he demanded in return was the end of the Republic. At the assassination of Caligula, grown men wept to believe that the liberty not known by them but only by their grandfathers would be restored - only to have the hope extinguished with the appointment by the military of Claudius to the throne.

They are not a direct precedent to our situation, but are there similarities?
It seems that you’re drawing universal conclusions about fundamental governing factors within every human society (such as individual liberty vs social contract, individual prosperity vs. collective good) based on how those forces manifested in a particular, political, cultural, and historical context.

I reject your premise that one society has to choose between affluence and liberty just because a previous society was unable to sustain both.
 
Liberty doesn’t require isolation so long as social structures operate on a voluntary basis, such that no one is compelled to participate in anything against their will.
Are you overlooking human foible giving rise, in the end to the need to defend liberty? Voluntary allegiance with the absence of compulsion to participate ?
Ultimately, universal prosperity is impossible without universal liberty.
Would that it were as seamless as you have outlined. For some, universal prosperity is not a goal to be sought, but universal sufficiency. Then again there is the competition for limited resources inviting compulsion to bring about distribution. Finally there’s the question of greed.
 
It seems that you’re drawing universal conclusions about fundamental governing factors within every human society (such as individual liberty vs social contract, individual prosperity vs. collective good) based on how those forces manifested in a particular, political, cultural, and historical context.

I reject your premise that one society has to choose between affluence and liberty just because a previous society was unable to sustain both.
It’s not my premise, but my conjecture. We are at the precipice of nationalizing businesses and changing capitalist structures to prevent a hypothetical economic collapse to avoid a loss of wealth. You explain it.
 
Are you overlooking human foible giving rise, in the end to the need to defend liberty? Voluntary allegiance with the absence of compulsion to participate ?
If participation was mutually beneficial, why would it need to be compelled?

To assume that participation must be compelled is to assume that participation is not mutually beneficial.
Would that it were as seamless as you have outlined. For some, universal prosperity is not a goal to be sought, but universal sufficiency.
I’m not going to split hairs with you between “prosperity” or “sufficiency.” Both simply reflect a particular understanding of what constitutes “human flourishing,” so let’s just call it that. Different societies will naturally have different definitions of what constitutes human flourishing- one group’s sufficiency might be seen by another group as prosperity, and another group as insufficiency. Likewise, individuals will define these concepts differently.

A voluntary society is simply one in which individuals with a shared understanding of human flourishing have chosen to pursue that understanding together.

On the other hand, liberty is not possible any society that has to compel its members to accept a particular understanding of human flourishing which is not their own.
Then again there is the competition for limited resources inviting compulsion to bring about distribution. Finally there’s the question of greed.
The concept of limited resources is a result of a lack mentality, which is simply the denial of the potential of human ingenuity. Our ability to develop and adapt to changing conditions constantly exceeds our expectations. Throughout history human ingenuity has consistently risen to the challenge of new ways to achieve human flourishing.

A quick example of this would be the work of Norman Borlaug. Follow the link to the wikipedia page on his contribution to human flourishing.

I’d go so far as to argue that promoting a lack mentality is an effective means of social control because it incites fear and makes people accept “compulsion to bring about distribution” as an acceptable moral compromise. Some might even say that global warming is a good example of this.

Finally, in regard to greed…
I’m sure you’ll agree that, unchecked, greed is ultimately unsustainable and self-defeating. You’d probably also agree that greed is an innate human quality, and would persist in some form or another regardless of any social scheme. I would simply add that liberty allows the freedom to pursue greed, it also allows the freedom to refuse to participate in social communities with those who are given to unchecked greed. On the contrary, in a compulsory society, the greedy frequently clamor to positions of power, because it enables them to compel others to serve their greedy ends. You’d probably agree that our own government (assuming you’re in the US, but feel free to consider any government) seems attract a disproportionately high number of people we’d both consider greedy.

Therefore, as compulsory societies are vulnerable to the influence of greedy people at every level of administrative authority, they are much more likely than voluntary societies to be overwhelmed by the unsustainable nature of greed, because voluntary societies, by their very nature, would lack administrative authority.
 
It’s not my premise, but my conjecture. We are at the precipice of nationalizing businesses and changing capitalist structures to prevent a hypothetical economic collapse to avoid a loss of wealth. You explain it.
Oh, that’s easy. You should have just asked that question in the first place…

Greed- plain and simple.

Perfect example of my comments on unsustainable greed, using lack mentality to compel ordinarily unacceptable moral compromise, and the tendency of greedy people to clamor for power wherever they can get the most of it- usually in the government, but apparently also in the multi-national banking system.

I think the response of the free market to the bailouts speaks volumes about the pitfalls of a compulsory society.
 
If participation was mutually beneficial, why would it need to be compelled? To assume that participation must be compelled is to assume that participation is not mutually beneficial.
Because that which is beneficial for some is not sufficient for them. It does not follow, therefore, that mere benificence is sufficient to support liberty.
I’m not going to split hairs with you between “prosperity” or “sufficiency.” Both simply reflect a particular understanding of what constitutes “human flourishing,” so let’s just call it that. Different societies will naturally have different definitions of what constitutes human flourishing- one group’s sufficiency might be seen by another group as prosperity, and another group as insufficiency. Likewise, individuals will define these concepts differently.
A voluntary society is simply one in which individuals with a shared understanding of human flourishing have chosen to pursue that understanding together.
On the other hand, liberty is not possible any society that has to compel its members to accept a particular understanding of human flourishing which is not their own.
You are presuming that “flourishing” exists as an absolute, universally recognizable and desireable. Further, you are treating compulsion as if it were the antithesis of liberty - if compulsion exists within a group, liberty does not.

I would profer that because of human foible, norms have to exist and be enforced. The problem at hand is in shifting norms, pointing to the larger issue of morality, and in the willingness to enforce them pointing to the larger issue of virtue.
The concept of limited resources is a result of a lack mentality, which is simply the denial of the potential of human ingenuity. Our ability to develop and adapt to changing conditions constantly exceeds our expectations. Throughout history human ingenuity has consistently risen to the challenge of new ways to achieve human flourishing.
I’d go so far as to argue that promoting a lack mentality is an effective means of social control because it incites fear and makes people accept “compulsion to bring about distribution” as an acceptable moral compromise. Some might even say that global warming is a good example of this.
I understand your point, but it is objectively true that life is limited, unless it is your contention that by intellect man is able to propel himself to infinity.

The difference in our age is in the willingness to accept and work within limitation, which returns to the question of norms, morality, virtue.
 
Oh, that’s easy. You should have just asked that question in the first place…

Greed- plain and simple.

Perfect example of my comments on unsustainable greed, using lack mentality to compel ordinarily unacceptable moral compromise, and the tendency of greedy people to clamor for power wherever they can get the most of it- usually in the government, but apparently also in the multi-national banking system.

I think the response of the free market to the bailouts speaks volumes about the pitfalls of a compulsory society.
I am struggling to understand if you view ours as a “free” or “compulsory” society by your definition.

Also, as you earlier explained, greed is a component of the human experience. To treat it as an anomaly here seems contradictory.
 
I am struggling to understand if you view ours as a “free” or “compulsory” society by your definition.
I believe we live in a compulsory society. I didn’t think I was being ambiguous about that.
Also, as you earlier explained, greed is a component of the human experience. To treat it as an anomaly here seems contradictory.
What am I treating as an anomaly?

Greed is a component of the human experience, and like most things it can be destructive when left unchecked.

Some people exhibit greater attachment to particular traits…that’s why there are greedy people, vain people, wrathful people, kind people, compassionate people, etc.
 
Because that which is beneficial for some is not sufficient for them. It does not follow, therefore, that mere benificence is sufficient to support liberty.
I had to read this a couple of times before I could even make sense of what you thought you were trying to say.

But, after a couple of aspirin, I realized that I only need to respond to your statement with two simple words. But those two words require a somewhat lengthy preface.

It kind of reminds reminds me of those 3-d illusions that were so popular a few years back- if you crossed your eyes at a seemingly repetitive pattern, you’d see a 3-d image and get a headache.

The root of the problem with that statement is that you’re comparing two different qualities of “the good,” as though they could somehow be mutually exclusive.

In reality, however, beneficence refers to the favorability of a “good,” which sufficiency refers to the adequacy of a “good.”

(Just a quick note-Sometimes people erroneously think that “sufficiency” refers exclusively to quantity- for example, “I have sufficient funds to pay my rent.” But the reference is qualitative, not quantitative. Where people get off is that “sufficiency” can be a qualitative measure of a given quantity, such that the statement indicates that the amount of funds I have (quantity) is sufficient (quality of the specific amount of funds) to paying my rent. I bring this up because if your attempt at juxtaposing “sufficiency” and “beneficence” was aimed at using “sufficiency” as a quantitative measure, then you should be aware of that error before reading any further.)

Anyway, from there, the problem with your logic is that both “beneficence” and “sufficiency” are prerequisites for something to be “a good.”

That is, “a good” cannot exist which is is either not sufficient or not beneficial.

That’s why your comment made my eyes hurt- you posed the statement that beneficence is insufficient to support liberty as though it was a novel idea.

But in reality, what you said is true of all “goods.” All goods must be both sufficient and beneficial.

After all that, I think my two-word response is very fitting…

“Well, duh.” :coffeeread:
You are presuming that “flourishing” exists as an absolute, universally recognizable and desireable.
No I didn’t. Did you read what I wrote?
Here it is again…
I SAID:
"Different societies will naturally have different definitions of what constitutes human flourishing- one group’s sufficiency might be seen by another group as prosperity, and another group as insufficiency. Likewise, individuals will define these concepts differently. "
Don’t know how you interpret that as even in the same ballpark as “an absolute.”
Further, you are treating compulsion as if it were the antithesis of liberty - if compulsion exists within a group, liberty does not.
Yes, I am- because to compel someone is to compromise their liberty through the use of force or pressure.

Antithesis might not be a strong enough word.
I would profer that because of human foible, norms have to exist and be enforced. The problem at hand is in shifting norms, pointing to the larger issue of morality, and in the willingness to enforce them pointing to the larger issue of virtue.
  1. If human foible is the condition that gives rise to the need to enforce norms, it is impossible to isolate and protect the development or enforcement of those norms from the problem of human foible.
  2. The need for understanding morality at the level of the individual is supplanted and replaced by attempts to operationalize moral norms into particular prohibitions called “laws.” This is precisely why the Church’s moral teachings have shifted from the “confessional manual” model to the call for all people to strive for a well formed conscience.
I understand your point, but it is objectively true that life is limited, unless it is your contention that by intellect man is able to propel himself to infinity.
The “lack mentality” espouses that because the current means of satisfying our needs is limited, then our ability to satisfy our needs is also limited.
But in reality, the drive of human beings to satisfy their needs has consistently lead them to develop new means of doing so.
We have the capacity for self-transcendence…not the new age nonsense, but the traditional understanding that we are able to imagine conditions beyond ourselves, and the intellectual capacity to strive to bring about those conditions.
That capacity is considered to be just short of infinite because it is the very capacity that makes it possible for human beings to be able to think about God. Obviously, only God can be appropriately described as having an infinite capacity- I say our capacity is “just short of infinite” because it gives us the ability to conceive of the infinite, but not to understand- or, said another way, we have the capacity to conceive of God, but not to understand God.
The difference in our age is in the willingness to accept and work within limitation, which returns to the question of norms, morality, virtue.

We are no more and no less willing than any other age to accept and work within our limitations. Some people may be more willing, others may be less willing…
But it is common to all people to want to expand our capacity for that which we value…if anything, you’re commenting on a change in what is valued.
 
I had to read this a couple of times before I could even make sense of what you thought you were trying to say.

But, after a couple of aspirin, I realized that I only need to respond to your statement with two simple words. But those two words require a somewhat lengthy preface.

It kind of reminds reminds me of those 3-d illusions that were so popular a few years back- if you crossed your eyes at a seemingly repetitive pattern, you’d see a 3-d image and get a headache.

The problem is that you’re comparing two different qualities of “the good,” as though they could somehow be mutually exclusive.

In reality, however, beneficence refers to the favorability of a “good,” which sufficiency refers to the adequacy of a “good.”

(Just a quick note-Sometimes people erroneously think that “sufficiency” refers exclusively to quantity- for example, “I have sufficient funds to pay my rent.” But the reference is qualitative, not quantitative. Where people get off is that “sufficiency” can be a qualitative measure of a given quantity, such that the statement indicates that the amount of funds I have (quantity) is sufficient (quality of the specific amount of funds) to paying my rent. I bring this up because if your attempt at juxtaposing “sufficiency” and “beneficence” was aimed at using “sufficiency” as a quantitative measure, then you should be aware of that error before reading any further.)

Anyway, from the problem with your logic is that both “beneficence” and “sufficiency” are prerequisites for something to be “a good.”

That is, “a good” cannot exist which is is either not sufficient or not beneficial.

That’s why your comment made my eyes hurt- you posed the statement that beneficence is insufficient to support liberty as though it was a novel idea.

But in reality, what you said is true of all “goods.” All goods must be both sufficient and beneficial.

After all that, I think my two-word response is very fitting…

“Well, duh.” :coffeeread:

No I didn’t. Did you read what I wrote?
Here it is again…

Don’t know how you interpret that as even in the same ballpark as “an absolute.”

Yes, I am- because to compel someone is to compromise their liberty through the use of force or pressure.

Antithesis might not be a strong enough word.
  1. If human foible is the condition that gives rise to the need to enforce norms, it is impossible to isolate and protect the development or enforcement of those norms from the problem of human foible.
  2. The need for understanding morality at the level of the individual is supplanted and replaced by attempts to operationalize moral norms into particular prohibitions called “laws.” This is precisely why the Church’s moral teachings have shifted from the “confessional manual” model to the call for all people to strive for a well formed conscience.
I understand your point, but it is objectively true that life is limited, unless it is your contention that by intellect man is able to propel himself to infinity.
OK. That wins the typing contest.
[/QUOTE]
 
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