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Lorrie
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I’m not coming to your house to hide out, you would offer me up on a platter with an apple in my mouth.
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HNA444
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hahahha
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yablabo
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yablabo
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Catechism of the Catholic Church
So, it is error to judge the morality of an act which is intrinsically evil by the “intention that inspires” it or the circumstance which supplies its context.
So, it is our duty always to manifest the truth.
As we know from #2469 “one man owes it to another to manifest the truth.”
If “by its very nature, lying is to be condemned,” then we know from this binding source that lying is intrinsically evil. It is also called a “profanation of speech” and taught that lying does “real violence to another.” It is also most clearly written that this offence and “every offence committed against justice and truth” demand the DUTY of reparation. That means, if you offend against the truth by lying, that you owe it (as a duty) to repair that offence, and that the reparation can sometimes be material reparation.
No where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church does it state that intent or circumstance make lies moral and encouraged, quite the opposite, in fact.
– Nicole
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tjm190
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You seem to have completely disregarded the quote i provided that clearly stated that if the one being lied to does not have a right to the truth, you are not truly lying.
“2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth.”
If the SS asks if there are Jews in your basement and you say “no”, while there are in fact Jews in your basement, then you are not lying by the CCC’s standards- just like a killing in self defense would not be considered murder.
“2508 Lying consists in saying what is false with the intention of deceiving the neighbor who has the right to the truth.”
If the SS asks if there are Jews in your basement and you say “no”, while there are in fact Jews in your basement, then you are not lying by the CCC’s standards- just like a killing in self defense would not be considered murder.
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Lorrie
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It is what it is.
Bottom line is that if I’m a Jew hiding in your house and the Nazi’s come I’m basically going to be served on toast (unless you state otherwise, which you haven’t done.)
Thank you, tjm, at least I know you will have my back!
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HNA444
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I got your back too, Lorrie!! lolIt is what it is.
Bottom line is that if I’m a Jew hiding in your house and the Nazi’s come I’m basically going to be served on toast (unless you state otherwise, which you haven’t done.)
Thank you, tjm, at least I know you will have my back!
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Lorrie
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Now I have 2 places to hide!!! :hug1:
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Roman_Army
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**To: Yablabo (a.k.a Nicole)
Nice quotes of the Catechism explaining that lying is intrinsically evil. However, have you bothered to read the ENTIRE section of the Catechism which you quoted from? To put it bluntly, the Catechism clearly teaches that certain wickedly evil individuals do not have the right to know the Truth. That would include folks like the Nazi Gestapos hunting for innocent Jews to murder in your house which you are hiding. Here is the part in the Catechism:**
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Nice quotes of the Catechism explaining that lying is intrinsically evil. However, have you bothered to read the ENTIRE section of the Catechism which you quoted from? To put it bluntly, the Catechism clearly teaches that certain wickedly evil individuals do not have the right to know the Truth. That would include folks like the Nazi Gestapos hunting for innocent Jews to murder in your house which you are hiding. Here is the part in the Catechism:**
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Wow. You would really show signs of hesitation, remain silent, or dodge questions repeated from the persistent and relentless Nazi Gestapo searching your house for innocent Jews you’re hiding? They have no right to know the truth because of the evil they clearly intend to do with it. So, it is not considered the sin of “lying.” The Church authorizes to make use of a “discreet” language. Also, wasn’t it Pope Pius XII and many other Catholic clerics and religious at the time who authorized the falsification of baptismal records in order to save Jewish children from the Nazis?
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Lorrie
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HNA444
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Thanks
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Joab_Anias
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What exactly is the difference between discreet language and lying?
Has anyone here ever been faced with using discreet language to save another’s life or is that just a non-sequiter to make a point? Is it really?
In perspective; What would be considered discreet language if confronted with denying the Lord to save themselves?
I must wonder; Are those who can justify lying with outlandish and unrealistic examples ashamed of the Lord who shows us a better way?
Or- Are we only trying to justify “discreet language” which is really something different?
Has anyone here ever been faced with using discreet language to save another’s life or is that just a non-sequiter to make a point? Is it really?
In perspective; What would be considered discreet language if confronted with denying the Lord to save themselves?
I must wonder; Are those who can justify lying with outlandish and unrealistic examples ashamed of the Lord who shows us a better way?
Or- Are we only trying to justify “discreet language” which is really something different?
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Roman_Army
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Dr. Jeff Mirus of Catholic Culture addresses the difficulty of lying to save people’s lives from an unjust aggressor here. According to him, the Catechism prior to the recent revision defined lying as “To speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error someone who has the right to know the truth.” This definition would have certainly settled our debate easily once Yabablo (a.k.a. Nicole) and you had quoted it. It also would have been in harmony with the definition of murder which permits killing in self-defense. But, after much consultation, for some reason, they decided to quote St. Augustine’s definition of lying which does not explicitly address our question. So, therefore, the Church has never addressed the issue, though it came close to prior to the final edition of the Catechism. Dr. Jeff Mirus then goes to explain that a possible explanation to our question would be that when one speaks a falsehood with the intention of preventing an enemy or thug from committing a grave evil, one’s intention is therefore not to deceive.
Now, the present Catechism does explain clearly that: “If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity” (CCC # 2484). In other words, a lie is only a mortal sin when it directly violates the virtues of justice and charity. This makes sense, since sin is contrary to virtue. Now, is speaking a falsehood to a Nazi thug intent on killing Jews a violation of the virtues of Justice and Charity? Of course not! I would also add that the virtue of fortitude is being followed here since it takes tremendous courage to risk your life by speaking falsely to such thugs, if one speaks the truth to them about the whereabouts of the Jews, then it is clearly cowardice. Now, this helps to address your other question of denying Christ to save your own life or others’ lives. Denying Christ even if done falsely goes against the virtues of Justice, Charity, Faith, Hope, and Fortitude. The Catechism defines the virtue of Justice as “the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor,” (CCC # 1807). But, above all “Justice toward God is called the ‘virtue of religion,’” (ibid.). The theological virtue of Charity is defined as “the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God,” (CCC # 1822). For the other virtues that are violated which I cited, you can refer to that section, but here I focus on these two since it is mention in the section on lying. When one denies Christ one clearly violates the Justice owed to God by which we must acknowledge his existence and authority, as well as cooperate with him in spreading his Truth by witnessing to it in the face of persecution. One also violates the virtue of Charity in which we must love God above all things including one’s self and others. When one denies Christ to save our own lives or the lives of others one is loving ourselves and others above God. The virtue of Hope is violated because in doing so we are doubting God’s promises to bring us to eternal heavenly Glory if we lift up or Cross and follow him. The virtue of Hope is what permits us to order everything in our lives towards our last end. Anything that denies our last end to be with God is clearly a violation of this virtue. Fortitude or courage is obviously also violated by denying Christ. And so on and so forth. I hope this helps.
May God bless you.
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yablabo
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I think these are all good questions…pointing to double standards…irrational use of words…and ultimately contradiction (even within the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which can be understood in that it is a work not protected by the Holy Spirit from error)).
Christ never lied to save Himself or anyone else. It’s teaching of the highest authority that God can neither lie nor be deceived (First Vatican Council). If we are called to participate in the Divine life, does that include lying (which has been made synonymous here with discreet language even though it is not)?
– Nicole
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HNA444
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What about if someone asks , “do i look good, or how do i look?” etc… and you don’t think they look good. Do you tell them that? Or, is it a sin to say yea u look good? does a lie make it a mortal sin, if it hurts someone ?
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stringbeanduck
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This really depends on the situation, if it’s your best friend gearing up for a date or the like, I would certainly be as honest as possible to help them from embaressing themselves. If friend/person comes up to asking if they look good and they don’t, try to find something that does look good. You can only assume they are asking for YOUR opinion in which case there is no need to lie. You simply need to find the right words to express your opinion in kind manor. How somebody looks is often based on opinion, so if you must, say something like I’m not into that look or I don’t fancy that style or whatever they are asking your opinion on. That way you aren’t lying.
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HNA444
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Yea, i actually do usually say those types of responses instead of lying. But, at the same time, there are certain cases where it’s like a stranger or someone who asks questions like that … and i don’t want to but so honest lol. so i don’t know
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livi
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Okay, so what about this situation. I just recently moved to a new city. One day, I was walking somewhere and a guy who claimed to be from a charity stopped me. He said his charity worked with children all over the world whose parents had died from AIDS, and he wanted me to sponsor a child. The problems were: 1) I wasn’t comfortable giving out all my personal information right there in the street to a charity I’d never heard of and a complete stranger; 2) I don’t have enough money to do it on my own (college student) and I would have had to talk to my mother if I was considering it. I was telling the guy some of this (not the part about being uncomfortable, the part about being in school and needing to speak to my mother), and he was being very pushy, trying to get me to give him my information for this right there. I eventually told him I was not prepared to do this right then, and he said okay but he asked me for my name. I didn’t want to tell him because of how he had been behaving, it made me not trust him. But I didn’t want to be rude either. I thought about lying and giving my middle name but I thought that that would have been a sin, so I just wound up giving him my real name which I really regret. Would it have been okay to lie about my name, or would it have been better to just be a little rude and say I don’t give out that information to strangers?
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HNA444
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I would have said sorry i have to go now or something, and just completely doge the question. But, i know where you are coming from. Because, although it is easy to say “oh just say i can’t give you this info”, or what not, the reality is that when it comes down to it we don’t want people to think we don’t trust them … and people take it the wrong way and think you are being rude when you say things like that. it’s tough being honest all the time, but i guess it’s always best to try . But, i think if you truly are in a situation where you have an instinct someone is going to be harmful or malicious, than i wouldn’t be honest with them.
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Sir_Knight
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+1
If a person is not entitled to the truth, then failing to give the person something that they are not entitled to is not a sin. :knight1:
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