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h1478971
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Are lies ever justifiable?
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fabricdragon
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grin
ooohh. a tough one!
well the short answer is “no” you may read Corrie Ten Boom’s story she has a lot of opinions on that…
but Lying is a tool of Satan (the father of lies)
that said, many things that could be called honesty… are not needed. you can tactfully avoid saying “that dress is hideous” without lying…
ooohh. a tough one!
well the short answer is “no” you may read Corrie Ten Boom’s story she has a lot of opinions on that…
but Lying is a tool of Satan (the father of lies)
that said, many things that could be called honesty… are not needed. you can tactfully avoid saying “that dress is hideous” without lying…
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dmfette
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…peace be with you…really…
…according to my understanding, yes they are…for example, if i were living during wwii and hiding jews in my basement to protect them, and nazi’s knocked on my door asking if i knew of any jews living in the area, i would lie with gusto…
…peace—>mark
…according to my understanding, yes they are…for example, if i were living during wwii and hiding jews in my basement to protect them, and nazi’s knocked on my door asking if i knew of any jews living in the area, i would lie with gusto…
…peace—>mark
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ljubim
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Catechism says we cannot do evil, even for good means.
But then the Nazi situation… I doubt they would say, are you hiding Jews? Because if they knew then they wouldn’t ask, they’d barge in. I can imagine that cleverly diverting their questions would be morally justifiable.
But then the Nazi situation… I doubt they would say, are you hiding Jews? Because if they knew then they wouldn’t ask, they’d barge in. I can imagine that cleverly diverting their questions would be morally justifiable.
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fabricdragon
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you see. I would have agreed with that. but if you read corrie ten booms account of her life… she was hiding Jews. so were others she knew. one of them when asked, “is that woman jewish” (a servant in her house) she said “yes”
she, and everyone in the house , was arrested. her statement “God would not permit them to be harmed because she had not lied”
corrie took a different tactic, she did lie… others… well they chose not to lie but to evade
“does she LOOK Jewish? why are you asking me that?!”
remember that Catholic Priests arriving in England during the worst prosecutions… woudl not lie if asked “are you a priest?”
but they often said things like “i am not a priest… who defies the pope” while others made noise, or after the guy had turned away.
it was certain execution to come into England as a Priest and get caught… but they wouldnt lie…
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adowcday
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Even from a secular perspective, lies are seldom all that effective. Sisela Bok wrote a great book called “Lying” with this conclusion some years back. A great read.
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dmfette
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…peace be with you…really…Catechism says we cannot do evil, even for good means.
But then the Nazi situation… I doubt they would say, are you hiding Jews? Because if they knew then they wouldn’t ask, they’d barge in. I can imagine that cleverly diverting their questions would be morally justifiable.
…whether you doubt certain actions by the hypothetical nazi’s in question is not part of the given situation; however, i very well would imagine that they would ask to compound the charges against the offending home owner…diluting the given situation with such ideas averts your attention from what is to me clear error in practice of Christian faith re: the specific issue posed in this thread…
…please indicate the ref.# from the catechism of which you speak…the wording of the catechism is specific…also, you introduce a different topic in a presumption that equates lying with doing evil…
…the Spirit of Truth serves Goodness; if it does not, it is not True…truth can and is often used for very wicked and evil purposes…in many ways, it is more devastating than lies when it serves the enemy of mankind in this manner…
…your statement as presented with its presumption in re: to the catechism is interesting if applied to events in the bible…there are examples in scripture where deception is used in the service of God’s plan of salvation - david pretended to be insane, jacob deceived his father and thus gained the blessings of inheritance, etc…re: the “law” and the place it serves beneath the Spirit and authority of the Lord God of Mercy, there are examples re: the stoning of an adulterous woman, violations of the sabbath, etc. where the procrustean imposition of “law” violates Goodness…i cannot imagine that the catechism would in any way demonstrate that i serve “evil” were i to lie to german nazi’s about hiding jews…indeed, scripture itself indicates that the faithful must be as cunning as the serpent in conjunction with being as innocent as doves when dealing with principality in this world…
…if i am wrong about this and my error and that of my understanding of scripture (as indicated above) can be demonstrated through the catechism and a trained apologist, i will apologize for my incorrect understanding of what it means to be Christian and catholic - then i would probably convert to judaism…if any posters to this thread find themselves in error in their understanding of Christian/catholic thought and being and make correction to that error through this post, give thanks to God - perhaps, if you will, please, pray for me that i might have dialog with a jesuit priest…
…peace—>mark
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dmfette
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…peace be with you…really…
…the given you provide re: the priests is different than the one i provide…if i as a priest evade death in this world by lying, i evade personal consequence to my actions…in such a case, Truth and Goodness are not served, for i must in faith be prepared to lose my life in order that i may attain eternal life in the next and to be a witness to that faith as a martyr…the same holds true for other less dire consequences - if i lie to evade personal l consequences to my actions, i dilute my faith - i sin…
…the given i propose is different…as a servant of Life, given my actions impact the lives others than myself and security of those God has placed in my hands, i would lie, eat bread baked in feces, or whatever Spirit moved me to do to see that Life and Goodness were served…i could not do anything else but this…if God required that i be as “cunning as a serpent” in dealing with those nazi’s and their evil intentions, i would ask to speak with the skill of satan himself if that would save the lives of those jews…really…
…peace—>mark
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diggerdomer
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Depends on what exactly you mean by “lies.”
It can be morally right to tell someone an untruth, or not.
What do you mean/understand by “lies”?
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dmfette
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…peace be with you…really…
…i haven’t read the book - sounds interesting…what do you mean by “effective”?..
…i’ve read published works from ivy league professors: “truth is what works” and “bull[stuff]”…scary departures from the cherry-tree/axe/washington-as-a-boy/lesson-in-integrity days…nevertheless, i confess, i have lied in the past -often - the most insideous lies were and are the ones that serve to deceive myself…read what is on my profile wall - i try to catch my lies in thought/self-reflection before they have a chance to do any harm…i have seen what doing otherwise can do in some family members - truly, lying can be the beginning of a “rot-from-within” - a nasty slippery slope down a road from which there is no return except through the grace of God…
…peace—>mark
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djeter
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Christians are people dedicated to living in the truth, because Jesus described himself as the Truth (John 14:6). We who worship Jesus cannot live in falsehood, because he is the criterion by which true and false are discriminated, the light in which the difference between good and evil is seen. Those who wish to live in the shadows must marginalize him, as Pilate did rhetorically — “What is Truth?” (John 18:38) — and as his own townspeople did more directly:
“They led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff” (Luke 4:29). But if we accept him as Messiah and Son of God, we must live the truth that he is, even when it costs us.
More here: payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/21/truth-telling/
Fr. Robert Barron, John Paul II, Dietrich Bonhoeffer offer their insights on truth-telling.
dj
“They led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they might hurl him off the cliff” (Luke 4:29). But if we accept him as Messiah and Son of God, we must live the truth that he is, even when it costs us.
More here: payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/21/truth-telling/
Fr. Robert Barron, John Paul II, Dietrich Bonhoeffer offer their insights on truth-telling.
dj
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fhansen
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We live in a world where evil is present and often has its way. Even if we always want to do the right thing- and seek to place the highest value on truth- there are times when we must compromise, choosing between greater or lesser evils, because not everyone *else *always wants to do the right thing.
It’s also true that lying is in some ways a very subtly pervasive “commodity” in this world, one we’re not necessarily so easily immunized against ourselves. Smiling when we really don’t mean it, covering our tracks in some way when we think our actions might’ve offended someone-or make us look bad- even wearing clothes (not that I’m advocating against it) are all ways we misrepresent the truth about who we really are and reflect an innocence lost. Even though truth, itself, isn’t relative, it seems that we are in some way- IOW, how close are we to the beings God created us to be? This “becoming truthful”, I think, is a life-long process of conversion. Just some thoughts.
It’s also true that lying is in some ways a very subtly pervasive “commodity” in this world, one we’re not necessarily so easily immunized against ourselves. Smiling when we really don’t mean it, covering our tracks in some way when we think our actions might’ve offended someone-or make us look bad- even wearing clothes (not that I’m advocating against it) are all ways we misrepresent the truth about who we really are and reflect an innocence lost. Even though truth, itself, isn’t relative, it seems that we are in some way- IOW, how close are we to the beings God created us to be? This “becoming truthful”, I think, is a life-long process of conversion. Just some thoughts.
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Newbie2
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Who was it that suggested that in the hiding-from-the-Nazi scenario that one should say (out loud) “No…” but complete the sentence silently “…not any that I’m going to turn over to you anyway” or some such thing?
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dmfette
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dmfette
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…peace be with you…
…please forgive the double post “quote”…
…thank you for your thoughts and the manner in which you have expressed them…what does “IOW” mean?..
…i think you reduce to its essence the s(S)pirit of my faith…"“becoming truthful”, I think, is a life-long process of conversion"…the Singular Ideal - the Truth - and the seeking of It - Christ…and though i may not understand completely this “Rose unfolding infinite petals”, the Beauty of the unfolding Mystery is only compounded by the wonder and drives me to seek further and more diligently…the search does, however, exact a price - a great one…there are pearls and there are Pearls…"…dr. my eyes…"…without God and the life of the church in the world, i would surely go insane…
…re: lying/lies and all other manners of deception as a “commodity” (an excellent choice of word) in this world, if you will please note my signature to my posts - i am reminded of the movie alien and the circumstance/manner by which the juvenile life form attaches itself to the human host…i wonder, was the nature of the “parent creature” in form/intelligence an artistic “coincidence”?..the struggle that st. ignatius describes between Christ and the “dragon” is profoundly more inspiring than this movie in re: to resolution and courage, even as despair would ready itself to devour the world…
…peace—>mark
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fhansen
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Thank you, dmfette. And, in other words, IOW means, in other words.
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ready
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No, only mental reservations are.
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chevalier
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Military intelligence and undercover police use fake IDs all the time, along with fake names. Fake flags or uniforms are an old ruse. Are all those people doing evil things? Even though I do think the world would be a better place without conscious deception. And I oppose the idea that a lie happens only when the person receiving false information doesn’t have the right to hear the truth. Unless it’s construed in such a way that when I ask, “what time is it?” I have the right to hear the truth.
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NoWhereMan
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I think it`s ok to lie to spare feelings & to keep peace, although I am not one to lie habitually , this world is full of liars, they lie about everything, it seems to be the way of the whole world
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diggerdomer
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So if we tell our kids that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole, that’s a “mental reservation”?
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