Life after death

[FrancesDS]

I am trying to clear up my understanding of the Catholic teachings of life after death (and this is to discuss the states other than heaven).

In the New Testament Jesus refers to everlasting punishment and he uses the word Gehenna. My understanding is that heaven and Gehenna are the two forms of existence that are eternal, and once you are in either, it is permanent.

Additional words we see used in Scripture/Tradition are Sheol, Hades, paradise, and limbo of the Fathers (Abrahom’s Bosom).
Again my understanding is that ‘Sheol’ and ‘Hades’ are two words that describe the same ‘place’ but ‘Sheol’ is the Greek word and ‘Hades’ is the Hebrew word. These both describe the bode of the dead but are distinct from Gehenna. (And I have read that ‘hell’ is a generic term in a sense and could be referring to either of this states depending on context.)
In Sheol/Hades there are those who are deprived of the vision of God for whatever reason; these may be the righteous who are awaiting the Messiah or those who are evil. I have read that some feel that the limbo of the Fathers (or referred to as paradise of the Fathers or paradise or Abraham’s bosom) is a separate state in Sheol/Hades that is where the righteous remain. This is where the Old Testament saints (eg. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) would have been until Jesus Ascended into heaven opening the gates for them.
Those who were not righteous were in Hades/Sheol but there final destination may not yet have been determined.
And we see in Revelation that at the end of time death and Hades will be thrown into Gehenna.

Once Jesus Ascended into heaven opening the gates of heaven, there was no longer a need for the state known as the limbo of the Fathers, correct?

So now we have heaven, hell/Gehenna, and a third state which is Hades (in Hebew)/Sheol (in Greek). My understanding is that this is the same state as what we now refer to as purgatory from the Latin. Is this correct?

I completely believe in the teaching of purgatory. It is throughout Scripture. But my confusion I guess is this. We are told by Paul in 1 Corinthians (chapter 3) that our work will be disclosed/revealed by fire and some (believers) who have built with straw and hay will be saved but as through fire. So this is evidence of the purgation and purification of believers (purgatory).
But then we see in Revelation that at final judgment death and Hades will be thrown into Gehenna. Does this mean that those in purgatory who are still in that existence at the end of time will be thrown into Gehenna (even though Paul said those in purgatory would be saved) or is there something else that Hades can refer to or an additional place of existence other than purgatory?

Does this make sense?

I do not want this to become a thread about is purgatory scriptural or not, please. That can be discussed elsewhere.

Thank you.
Frances DS

 

[1ke]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

 

[GEddie]

…So now we have heaven, hell/Gehenna, and a third state which is Hades (in Hebew)/Sheol (in Greek). My understanding is that this is the same state as what we now refer to as purgatory from the Latin. Is this correct?

…we see in Revelation that at final judgment death and Hades will be thrown into Gehenna. Does this mean that those in purgatory who are still in that existence at the end of time will be thrown into Gehenna (even though Paul said those in purgatory would be saved) or is there something else that Hades can refer to or an additional place of existence other than purgatory?

Thank you.
Frances DS

Hades is actually the Greek word, and simply means the place of the dead, as does Sheol in Hebrew. Gehenna was orignally a valley in Jerusalem, where refuse (including unclaimed dead human bodies) was burnt; thus the name was applied to the punishment of fire in eternity. Hades leads into Gehenna, and is not Purgatory, whence one is led into Heaven.

ICXC NIKA

 

[COPLAND_3]

I highly recommend this critique that I put together litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife

 

[Nita]

…But then we see in Revelation that at final judgment death and Hades will be thrown into Gehenna. Does this mean that those in purgatory who are still in that existence at the end of time will be thrown into Gehenna (even though Paul said those in purgatory would be saved) or is there something else that Hades can refer to or an additional place of existence other than purgatory?

…

Haven’t done an in depth search on Rev 20:14, but didn’t find anything in the Navarre or Haydock.

My personal opinion: Assuming Hades to be a reference to Purgatory, it would mean that the Purgatory (the state/place) would come to an end. If it was not empty at the time of the final judgement, it would then be “emptied” – all present in that state of Purgatory would then enter heaven. No soul in purgatory goes to hell.

 

[COPLAND_3]

As for Rev 20:14 here is what I wrote in my commentary on Revelation

Death and Hades means all those whose souls were being held in Hades, they were thrown body and soul into the Lake of Fire.

litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Commentary+on+Revelation+by+John+Litteral

 

[FrancesDS]

I highly recommend this critique that I put together litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife

I actually found your site the other day while searching the internet for an answer to my question.
Very helpful! Thank you.

And I am actually so glad you are on this forum. I was thinking of trying to contact you through your site to ask an additional question but then decided against it. But here you are!

From what I understand, it is felt that the limbo of the Fathers (‘place’ for the saved before heaven was opened) was in a section of Hades. This is felt to be the case because after Jesus died he descended into hell and freed the souls of the saved. And once the gates of heaven were opened, there was no longer a need for this limbo of the Fathers and only the unsaved were left in Hades. (Correct?)

Now those in this limbo of the Fathers were saved. But the Jews also believed in a place of purification and because of this they prayed for their dead as we do.
Now we (Catholics) believe this place of purification, purgatory, to be separate from Hades. (Correct?) I understand that this is, at least for one reason, because of Revelation telling us that those in Hades at the Final Judgment would be thrown into Gehenna. This could not be purgatory then because those in purgatory are saved and it is not thought they are at risk for hell, they just need to be purified before entering heaven (they are on heaven’s doorstep in a sense and just waiting to wipe their feet, to use an analogy I just made up).
So if purgatory and Hades are separate ‘places’, why is the limbo of the Fathers, which again is a ‘place’ for the SAVED before Christ, felt to have been a part of Hades whereas purgatory is separate?

Confusing to me.
What are your thoughts?

Frances DS

 

[COPLAND_3]

I actually found your site the other day while searching the internet for an answer to my question.
Very helpful! Thank you.

And I am actually so glad you are on this forum. I was thinking of trying to contact you through your site to ask an additional question but then decided against it. But here you are!

From what I understand, it is felt that the limbo of the Fathers (‘place’ for the saved before heaven was opened) was in a section of Hades. This is felt to be the case because after Jesus died he descended into hell and freed the souls of the saved. And once the gates of heaven were opened, there was no longer a need for this limbo of the Fathers and only the unsaved were left in Hades. (Correct?)

Now those in this limbo of the Fathers were saved. But the Jews also believed in a place of purification and because of this they prayed for their dead as we do.
Now we (Catholics) believe this place of purification, purgatory, to be separate from Hades. (Correct?) I understand that this is, at least for one reason, because of Revelation telling us that those in Hades at the Final Judgment would be thrown into Gehenna. This could not be purgatory then because those in purgatory are saved and it is not thought they are at risk for hell, they just need to be purified before entering heaven (they are on heaven’s doorstep in a sense and just waiting to wipe their feet, to use an analogy I just made up).
So if purgatory and Hades are separate ‘places’, why is the limbo of the Fathers, which again is a ‘place’ for the SAVED before Christ, felt to have been a part of Hades whereas purgatory is separate?

Confusing to me.
What are your thoughts?

Frances DS

Frances,

Feel free to contact me anytime!

You appear to have a very well thought out understanding and appear to have done alot of research.

This is felt to be the case because after Jesus died he descended into hell and freed the souls of the saved. And once the gates of heaven were opened, there was no longer a need for this limbo of the Fathers and only the unsaved were left in Hades. (Correct?)

Correct

Now we (Catholics) believe this place of purification, purgatory, to be separate from Hades. (Correct?)

Correct

So if purgatory and Hades are separate ‘places’, why is the limbo of the Fathers, which again is a ‘place’ for the SAVED before Christ, felt to have been a part of Hades whereas purgatory is separate?

Are you assuming that Limbo was the same as Purgatory? That may be your sticking point. Purgatory and Limbo are not the same nor ever was, Limbo was considered paradise, the same place that Jesus said He and the thief on the cross would soon be, and the same place that the rich man saw Lazarus at the side of Abraham. That is assuming that we understand Limbo as the place where the saints went before the Resurrection of Christ. According to that passage in Luke it appears that Hades had a chasm separating it, one side was the place of torture while the other side was paradise. When Jesus went to Hades right after His death before His resurrection, He proclaimed victory and then took the Old Testament saints to Heaven, which probably then became all one big place of torture that we call Hades/Sheol. Hades might have needed that extra space in order to start putting the souls of the unsaved from the Church Age, just a thought.

I believe that Hades is in the center of the earth, but I have no idea where Purgatory is, or what kind of abode it is. Some of the saints have had visions of Purgatory, as well as Heaven and Hades, which I do have in my articles on my site.

Does that help any?

 

[FrancesDS]

Let me try to explain my thoughts again and in a different way.

Before Christ:
*There was Hades.
*There was the limbo of the Fathers (for the saved awaiting the Messiah).
*There also seems to have been a place of purgation that the Jews believed in. This seems to be a place separate from the limbo of the Fathers. At least I would think that it would be since those here in the limbo of the Fathers were just men who were saved. I do not fully understand the Jewish understanding of this place of purification though. I do not know if it is similar to ours where those here are saved but need to be purified or if they just have not yet had their judgment decided. ?? I cannout tell from what I have read.

Regardless, was this ‘Jewish purgatory’ also a part of Hades?

I would think that it very well could have been or was because how could the limbo of the Fathers with the just be in Hades and this place for those needing to be purified be outside of Hades?

So it seems that we have Hades. In this place, there is a ‘section’ for the wicked/unsaved, a ‘section’ for those needing purification, and a ‘section’ for the saved (limbo of the Fathers). Would this be accurate to say?

BUT the purgatory we now have (after Christ), is separate from Hades.

So to expand on this, I realize that when Christ descended to Hades and freed the souls of the just that he freed those in the limbo of the Fathers who then went to heaven. Could he or did he then also free those just who were here in the purgatory of Hades, possibly still keeping them in purgatory if they still needed purification, but freeing this ‘section’ of purgatory from Hades and making it its own ‘place’??

What are your thoughts?
(Hope this makes sense.)

Thanks!
Frances DS

 

[COPLAND_3]

Let me try to explain my thoughts again and in a different way.

Before Christ:
*There was Hades.
*There was the limbo of the Fathers (for the saved awaiting the Messiah).
*There also seems to have been a place of purgation that the Jews believed in. This seems to be a place separate from the limbo of the Fathers. At least I would think that it would be since those here in the limbo of the Fathers were just men who were saved. I do not fully understand the Jewish understanding of this place of purification though. I do not know if it is similar to ours where those here are saved but need to be purified or if they just have not yet had their judgment decided. ?? I cannout tell from what I have read.

Regardless, was this ‘Jewish purgatory’ also a part of Hades?

I would think that it very well could have been or was because how could the limbo of the Fathers with the just be in Hades and this place for those needing to be purified be outside of Hades?

So it seems that we have Hades. In this place, there is a ‘section’ for the wicked/unsaved, a ‘section’ for those needing purification, and a ‘section’ for the saved (limbo of the Fathers). Would this be accurate to say?

BUT the purgatory we now have (after Christ), is separate from Hades.

So to expand on this, I realize that when Christ descended to Hades and freed the souls of the just that he freed those in the limbo of the Fathers who then went to heaven. Could he or did he then also free those just who were here in the purgatory of Hades, possibly still keeping them in purgatory if they still needed purification, but freeing this ‘section’ of purgatory from Hades and making it its own ‘place’??

What are your thoughts?
(Hope this makes sense.)

Thanks!
Frances DS

You sure are a deep thinker, I love it! To be honest I never have given much thought about the purgatory before Christ, but obviously there had to be because they would also need a place or state in between earth and paradise just like now with earth and Heaven for the saved who need to be cleaned up for Heaven, because it would seem proper that an Old Testament person who was saved but barely should be cleansed before being among those saints like Moses, Abraham, etc who were in paradise.

As for the Jewish belief on a purgation, personally I would think that the OT purgatory is the same as the NT Purgatory, while the Jewish understanding was extremely limited but revealed more fully during the Church age, as many Jewish understandings were. My speculation is that both OT and NT purgation is the same state or place but only 2 different groups of people under different covenants inhabited it at different times.

 

[COPLAND_3]

So it seems that we have Hades. In this place, there is a ‘section’ for the wicked/unsaved, a ‘section’ for those needing purification, and a ‘section’ for the saved (limbo of the Fathers). Would this be accurate to say?

Purgatory could be somewhere in the center of the earth too, since it is beleived by many saints that fire is involved in the purgation, seems possible. Though I am more convinced that Hades is in the center of the earth, but more uncertain about Purgatory being there.

 

[FrancesDS]

If you do not mind, bear with me for another few thoughts.

Why would limbo of the Fathers be in Hades?
Seems strange that just men such as Abraham would be in Hades, associated with the wicked and a type of hell, even if these people were separated from the wicked.
I found something that I think is from Thomas Aquinas but it was a comment that these men in the limbo of the Fathers were still tainted with original sin and could only be freed from that by Christ.
Maybe this explains why limbo of the Fathers was in Hades, because of the taint of original sin. I’m not sure. Thoughts?

And I also wonder how the purgatory, during the time of the Old Testament, could be separate from Hades as the one that now exists is?
It seems to me that before Christ, those closest to heaven were those in limbo of the Fathers; they were just and saved and just awaiting the Messiah. Yet they were still in Hades.
It does not seem that those in the OT purgatory could be in any other ‘place’ outside of Hades because if these Fathers were as close as it gets to heaven,in a sense, yet were still in Hades, how could those in the OT purgatory, still needing to be purified, be any closer? (And by this I mean that if purgatory was outside of Hades, separated from the wicked, it would seem then that those here in purgatory were, in a sense, closer to heaven.)
In addition, those in the OT purgatory would have also still be tainted with original sin and when purified, it seems that the next ‘step’ would have been to go into the limbo of the Fathers to be with Abraham and others to await the Messiah to be able to enter heaven. Seems strange to be in purgatory outside of Hades and then once purified enter Hades? Seems that if purgatory was a lower level in Hades compared to limbo of the Fathers, then once purified, they would move ‘up’ into limbo of the Fathers since still tainted with original sin and await the Messiah. ??
And then if this were the case, then when Jesus descended to the dead and freed the just, it could pertain to freeing souls from original sin. This would have freed both those in limbo of the Fathers and those in the OT purgatory from Hades. Additionally this would have allowed those in the limbo of the Fathers to go to heaven and would have allowed purgatory to become a separate place from Hades so that now that they had been freed from original sin, they too could go to heaven once they were purified.
This would then leave purgatory as a separate place for all of us who have been freed from original sin by baptism.

It was hard to put these thoughts into words. Hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I may just be overanalyzing all of this though…
All of this is just such a mystery and things we will likely never fully understand until all things are revealed to us in heaven.

Just some thoughts.
Frances DS

 

[COPLAND_3]

If you do not mind, bear with me for another few thoughts.

Why would limbo of the Fathers be in Hades?
Seems strange that just men such as Abraham would be in Hades, associated with the wicked and a type of hell, even if these people were separated from the wicked.
I found something that I think is from Thomas Aquinas but it was a comment that these men in the limbo of the Fathers were still tainted with original sin and could only be freed from that by Christ.
Maybe this explains why limbo of the Fathers was in Hades, because of the taint of original sin. I’m not sure. Thoughts?

My pleasure Frances, I love talking about this topic, even though I have devoted many years to trying to understand it, I am still open to learning more.

As for Abraham and other men like him being in Hades, Luke reveals that in Luke 16:22-23, while those in the place of torture could see Abraham and the saints behind a great chasm that separated them. St. Thomas was right on about them being there awaiting in Heaven due to original sin! That place that they were at is what I hold to be the same place called paradise, the place that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he was going to be there with Him (Luke 23:42-43). We know that Jesus went to Hades when He died, that means paradise and the place of torture (Matt. 12:40).

And I also wonder how the purgatory, during the time of the Old Testament, could be separate from Hades as the one that now exists is?
It seems to me that before Christ, those closest to heaven were those in limbo of the Fathers; they were just and saved and just awaiting the Messiah. Yet they were still in Hades.
It does not seem that those in the OT purgatory could be in any other ‘place’ outside of Hades because if these Fathers were as close as it gets to heaven,in a sense, yet were still in Hades, how could those in the OT purgatory, still needing to be purified, be any closer? (And by this I mean that if purgatory was outside of Hades, separated from the wicked, it would seem then that those here in purgatory were, in a sense, closer to heaven.)

As for the OT purgatory, I imagine that it is the same as the NT purgatory. As for its location, I don’t count it out that it could be in the same location as Hades, but I don’t think that it would matter, even if it was physically closer to Heaven than Limbo, because physical distance is not what makes you closer to God or Heaven, it is the state of your spiritual being. Plus, Limbo\paradise was not a place of torture, but a place suitable for the OT saints waiting for Jesus’ Coming. Those in OT purgatory would have been there getting cleaned up for paradise, and then once they entered paradise they would wait for the fulfillment of their salvation by Christ and the Cross.

And then if this were the case, then when Jesus descended to the dead and freed the just, it could pertain to freeing souls from original sin. This would have freed both those in limbo of the Fathers and those in the OT purgatory from Hades. Additionally this would have allowed those in the limbo of the Fathers to go to heaven and would have allowed purgatory to become a separate place from Hades so that now that they had been freed from original sin, they too could go to heaven once they were purified.
This would then leave purgatory as a separate place for all of us who have been freed from original sin by baptism.

Very well could have!

It was hard to put these thoughts into words. Hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I may just be overanalyzing all of this though…
All of this is just such a mystery and things we will likely never fully understand until all things are revealed to us in heaven.

I don’t think any of us can over analyze our Faith, look at the Summa Theologica, Aquinas was the king of analyzing!

 

[FrancesDS]

Thanks!

This has been a great discussion I think.
I definitely feel that I have a better understanding of this.

Thanks again!
Frances DS

 

[COPLAND_3]

Thanks!

This has been a great discussion I think.
I definitely feel that I have a better understanding of this.

Thanks again!
Frances DS

I too have enjoyed it!