Life and death - sacraments

[davidv]

You cannot force grace at gunpoint-let’s clarify that together. Can you get a sacramental or sacrament by force?

No. Why? Because God is not to be tested.

Obviously perfect contrition-feeling sorry for your sins because you love God and are sorry for having offended God because of this love you have for God. Feelings are not necessary but an act of the will is required-and all of that-perfect contrition is a grace from God directly.

But we were mentioning rather I was mentioning if there were sacraments and sacramental’s that can be received by force that is, against the will or rather the intention of the priest. But if there were say, a blessing that you can force that is again against the will of the priest to say to you which is effective regardless of it being said against the will of the priest then it seems God would permit it but for what reason?

Example, when the priest says the mass it is effective as long as the priest is doing what the Church intends and not on the faith or holiness of the priest. Clearly we know why God planned it that way.

If a priest had decided he wouldn’t say mass as it was intended. If he was then forced to perform it anyway it would not be valid.

 

[opusAquinas]

We are talking about HUMAN actions - not the about how God can bring good out of our evil.

No you cannot “steal” spiritual goods. You cannot commit a mortal sin in using a gun to be absolved…the absolution will be invalid. Period.

The question wasn’t really about whether in fact you can steal a spiritual good. Just like you cannot buy a blessing. When you buy a blessed rosary the blessing goes away. I was interested in knowing whether or not there are sacramental’s or sacraments that can be given by force. I was trying to think of examples. And the answer is no for confession. You may be dying and if the priest is wicked you are out of luck. But if you were friends with a wicked priest he would do it. So make friends with unclean mammon.

 

[Bookcat]

I was interested in knowing whether or not there are sacramental’s or sacraments that can be given by force. I was trying to think of examples. And the answer is no for confession. You may be dying and if the priest is wicked you are out of luck. But if you were friends with a wicked priest he would do it. So make friends with unclean mammon.

Sure I suppose it may be possible to force a Priest to bless a rosary -but what good would it be for that person? They remain in mortal sin with a nice blessed rosary…

 

[opusAquinas]

There are so many things theologically wrong with this statement that I am truly baffled. I do not mean to offend, but out of love I have to ask “How do you call yourself a Catholic?” This paragraph indicates that you either do not know, or do not understand the most basic precepts of the faith.

Again, I am not attacking you, but I urge you to get guidance from your priest. Perhaps sit in on an RCIA class (it is Lent, after all). Explore your faith more and these errors will become evident to you, and you can come forth a better equipped Christian.

Why don’t you actually reason through what I wrote - and give actual reasons.
Would you like to know my educational background etc on this matter then truly your head would spin from total bafflement at my ignorance -if you even knew who I was and what I’ve done for the Church- that’s nice - why don’t you start an analysis beginning with what you think I meant.

Imagine the devil and his demons were harassing you like St. Anthony of the desert. They were tormenting you and you were trying to free yourself but they tormented you mentally spiritually and physically. And the only way to be freed from their harassment was by a blessing from a priest. Now this prayer was so effective that even if you put a gun to a priest head and forced him to say it against his will it is so effective-a person is freed from diabolical harassment. It would seem that God did this because God knew that priests are sinners just like everyone else. Now it would seem under these circumstances that even a little wrong can produce a greater good. Just like when Jacob lied to his father breaking the 10 Commandments of honoring your mother and father in order to get the special blessing from his father. So if a person does this and gets to heaven well it seems even the little wrong can produce a greater good. Which kind of makes me wonder Catholic sin and non-Catholic sin but only Catholics can be forgiven. What a blessing it is to be a Catholic! So when we look around at other Catholics we must wonder about God’s mercy.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

You cannot force grace at gunpoint-let’s clarify that together.

Ok.
“YOU”: In this sense the plural, not only ‘you’ a single person, but encompassing all people. A more clear way of saying “A PERSON”

“CANNOT”: a combination of can not, meaning it is impossible to do so.

“FORCE”: use coercion or compulsion, especially with the use of threats or violence

“GRACE”: the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

If any of that is unclear by this point I refer you to your local dictionary.

Can you get a sacramental or sacrament by force?

NO.

But we were mentioning rather I was mentioning if there were sacraments and sacramental’s that can be received by force that is, against the will or rather the intention of the priest.

No, there are none. Zero. NONE.

Example, when the priest says the mass it is effective as long as the priest is doing what the Church intends and not on the faith or holiness of the priest. Clearly we know why God planned it that way.

This is a completely different topic. The grace of God comes through the priest regardless of the priests status as a sinner. That is completely different than someone trying to EXTRACT God’s grace by force.

 

[opusAquinas]

Ok.

This is a completely different topic. The grace of God comes through the priest regardless of the priests status as a sinner. That is completely different than someone trying to EXTRACT God’s grace by force.

I’m not sure what it is you’re trying to answer because you’re not answering any my questions you seem to be going on about something completely different than my point but that’s okay. The priest has to intend or it’s a black mass. But whenever the priest decides he can turn the bread into the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Now can we force the priest to do it ? not if he doesn’t intend it. And I can’t see his intentions. I can only know by faith. But in any case you can’t force his intentions in this case.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Why don’t you actually reason through what I wrote - and give actual reasons.

If you like, I will go back and break it down for you, but it is going to be a long post. Please be patient awaiting it.

Would you like to know my educational background etc on this matter:

Nope. I dont care if you have a triple doctorate from Harvard in theology. You might be a genius. I dont know. What I do know is that you cannot force God’s grace with threats and violence. If your education tells you differently I suggest you get your money back.

And at no time was I attacking you as a person, I am merely trying to explain that if you believe threats and violence can be used to extract God’s grace at any time or in any manner then you are in error.

As Catholics we’re supposed to help one another to stay away from error. So please, dont be offended. It’s done with love.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

I’m not sure what it is you’re trying to answer because you’re not answering any my questions

Your original question was whether Confession, receipt of the Eucharist, or Exorcism could be validly gained by putting a gun to the head of a priest.

The answer from myself and all those other who have echoed it is simply NO, it cannot.

you seem to be going on about something completely different than my point but that’s okay.

Perhaps I missed it. What is the point you are trying to make?

The priest has to intend or it’s a black mass. But whenever the priest decides he can turn the bread into the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Now can we force the priest to do it ? not if he doesn’t intend it. And I can’t see his intentions. I can only know by faith. But in any case you can’t force his intentions in this case.

You cannot force his intentions in any case and still have a valid grace. That’s what we’ve been saying.

 

[opusAquinas]

If you like, I will go back and break it down for you, but it is going to be a long post. Please be patient awaiting it.

Nope. I dont care if you have a triple doctorate from Harvard in theology. You might be a genius. I dont know. What I do know is that you cannot force God’s grace with threats and violence. If your education tells you differently I suggest you get your money back.

And at no time was I attacking you as a person, I am merely trying to explain that if you believe threats and violence can be used to extract God’s grace at any time or in any manner then you are in error.

As Catholics we’re supposed to help one another to stay away from error. So please, dont be offended. It’s done with love.

This seems to be what is happening. I think you’re getting very excited by the fact that I was giving a hypothetical case. And you say there’s no point in thinking about that hypothetical because it would never happen and it can’t happen. But just entertain the notion for second in fact entertain that hypothetical has indeed true for a moment. If it were true then what does it say about what God knows about people? About how people act? About how priests are sinners just like everyone else? I know, I know you’re going to get excited again and say that this would never happen and God never permits this- but for a moment think about the consequences of this hypothetical if it were in fact true just then for entertainment purposes if nothing else if that is the only way you could bother to understand the implications and even though it was a typo for second-applications of this hypothetical. Even if such things existed how is it provable but if it were in fact true what does that say about us as sinners and God’s response to us?

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Imagine the devil and his demons were harassing you like St. Anthony of the desert. They were tormenting you and you were trying to free yourself but they tormented you mentally spiritually and physically. And the only way to be freed from their harassment was by a blessing from a priest.

Ok, I understand the situation.

Now this prayer was so effective that even if you put a gun to a priest head and forced him to say it against his will it is so effective-a person is freed from diabolical harassment.

And here is where you go astray. You cannot put a gun to a priests head and force him to exorcise you. In doing so you are committing a mortal sin. You CAN NOT force a blessing, or a grace, at gunpoint.

Now, if you point a gun at a priest and scream at him to please help you, if he is any sort of priest at all, he will have pity and, out of love, deliver you all the same, but afterwards you are going to owe that priest an apology and ask forgiveness.

So if a person does this and gets to heaven

If someone does this and gets to heaven it will be IN SPITE of the behavior, not because of it.

well it seems even the little wrong can produce a greater good.

St. Paul disagrees. Check the gospels. Romans 3:8. Those who say we can do evil that good may come are condemned.

 

[opusAquinas]

Imagine the devil and his demons were harassing you like St. Anthony of the desert. They were tormenting you and you were trying to free yourself but they tormented you mentally spiritually and physically. And the only way to be freed from their harassment was by a blessing from a priest. Now this prayer was so effective that even if you put a gun to a priest head and forced him to say it against his will it is so effective-a person is freed from diabolical harassment. It would seem that God did this because God knew that priests are sinners just like everyone else. Now it would seem under these circumstances that even a little wrong can produce a greater good. Just like when Jacob lied to his father breaking the 10 Commandments of honoring your mother and father in order to get the special blessing from his father. So if a person does this and gets to heaven well it seems even the little wrong can produce a greater good. Which kind of makes me wonder Catholic sin and non-Catholic sin but only Catholics can be forgiven. What a blessing it is to be a Catholic! So when we look around at other Catholics we must wonder about God’s mercy.

If this were the case that you could put a gun to the head of a priest and demand the blessing that freed you from diabolical obsession-in other words if it were true that you could threaten a priest to receive a blessing that freed you demonic harassment even if it were against the priests will but the blessing was still effective-God would seem to be indicating that you’re not stealing anything at all! That in fact you are only receiving what should freely be given because it’s your right to receive it but it’s being withheld from you. It is the fact you’re right to receive it. At least, that would be one interpretation.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

I think you’re getting very excited by the fact that I was giving a hypothetical case.

You gave a hypothetical case (Man on his deathbed pulling a gun on a priest) in order to frame a question (is it valid?).I understood it was hypothetical and gave you an answer.(Even in your hypothetical situation, no, it is not valid, nor can it ever be made valid in any other hypothetical situation where violence is used in an attempt to gain a grace)

And you say there’s no point in thinking about that hypothetical because it would never happen and it can’t happen.

I never said there was no point in thinking of hypotheticals. I never said anything remotely close to that. Could a man pull a gun on a priest and demand absolution? Sure, in our crazy world that is possible. Would the absolution be valid? No it would not.

Not in a box, not with a fox.

But just entertain the notion for second in fact entertain that hypothetical has indeed true for a moment.

Uh-huh. Guy pulls gun on priest. Totally happened. I’m with ya.
Still not valid.

 

[Mintaka]

I believe that the original poster is trying to talk about “ex opere operato,” where the Sacraments still “work” even if the priest is a wicked man, or doesn’t believe in it.

However, “ex opere operato” does demand that the priest at least wish to do what the Church does with the Sacrament. If a priest says the words and goes through the motions, but doesn’t want a Sacrament to occur, it won’t.

No Sacrament, blessing, or prayer is valid when it happens under duress. That’s true for Matrimony, and it’s also true for things like Anointing of the Sick, Confession, Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, etc. It doesn’t matter if it’s the priest or the recipient; Sacraments under duress don’t count. God does not pour out His grace on people who don’t want it; He doesn’t bless unjust acts; nor does He approve of His priests being threatened.

In fact, trying to force Sacraments from priests is an extremely wicked mortal sin, and an act of sacrilege against God Himself. I don’t know for sure if it’s one of the sins that only papal or episcopal authority can absolve, but it’s certainly in that neighborhood. So don’t do it. (And if you have done it, you really really need to confess it.)

Now, Sacraments can be valid when the recipient is not properly disposed; but many of the graces are deferred or held back, until the person does become properly disposed. (So try to go to Confession before receiving other Sacraments, instead of receiving Sacraments in a state of mortal sin.)

 

[opusAquinas]

God doesn’t allow it because God knows how people would act if that could happen if people could force a priest to give a sacramental or blessing. There are a lot of sacrilegious things that people would do because of how hateful and selfish and self-centered people are.
(I mean people feel a lot of hatred they feel hatred toward their neighbors as well as friends and even themselves. There are lots of people even hate themselves lots of feelings of hatred going on because for some reason people cannot feel love. On top of all that of course people are filled with envy anger lust etc. and all kinds of disgusting thoughts.)

Okay so it makes sense people are very sinful and they would be up to no good if God allowed that to happen.

(Socratic didactic somehow is going above getting to the point.) So basically apparently there would never be a case where you could force a priest to do such a thing as give a blessing etc.

Praise God for that.

And I suppose my hypothetical doesn’t make much sense either. After all if people do evil things or have evil thoughts they invite the devil and the demons into their lives. This is so that we are always on guard with our thoughts. And if we can always go to a priest to free ourselves from the devil and his demons then people would keep doing evil things and then go running to a priest to free themselves from diabolical obsession or possession. Confession is given freely enough and that is a blessing. I was thinking of abuses of indulgences but that’s another thread.

 

[opusAquinas]

I guess also God’s public policy as to why you can’t force priests for sacraments are sacramental’s is because as sinners people would do all kinds of evil things and be tempted to do such evil things to priests. Instead you can offer alms and money but also sinful things to have the priests willingly give sacraments and sacramental’s. For example in abuse cases priest would often offer confession after sexual liaisons with adults or children in their parish. So there are abuses when favors are offered but overall God would prefer we treat priests nicely to get sacraments and sacramental’s rather than by force. So the general rule of thumb of course you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. But because we live in a very sinful world a fallen world with lots of evil and since we are all sinners there are always abuses.