Life But At What Cost Ethical Delimma

[SerenaHC]

The OP stated that she is a recent convert. I am a convert also (2003.) The Catholic Church is unique in its view of the dignity of the human person. My husband was in a Charismatic church duriing Nate’s gestation and even his pastor told him that, if he chose to abort Nate, they would support him. I was in a Lutheran church when a parishioner said that our children should have been aborted because of all the hardship their lives had caused. People who are cradle Catholics don’t always realize how much the culture of death has permeated other Christian denominations. The Protestant world is very, very different from the Catholic world. I think, being a new convert, the OP is grappling with changes in attitude towards life. I think it takes courage to admit this and ask for help in understanding Catholic thought on this matter.

 

[deanarrca]

(Yeah I remembered how to quote things )

Deana,

I wasn’t attempting to hurt feelings by anonymously responding on an internet forum. I am serious. If you find yourself imagining about babies or even yourself being withdrawn from or denied treatment to die, have you considered the guidance of someone in the professional field? Please remember that the idea of professional guidance in my generation is considered a beneficial thing and not a stigma or insult.

Thank you for your concern. Sometimes I forget on board that people can’t always read the tone of a post. I really don’t spend an excessive amount of time on this topic. My original post was written over a year ago. When my SIl was going through this, I was simply going through the thought process of what I might do in the same situation and the morality of it. That is all. I know when we post on these boards we don’t know what the person is thinking or their intentions, and we can’t see the tone of the letter. It is natural for us to try and read between the lines. I know when I read posts I have to be careful. I think we all read posts through the blinders of our own personal experiences. Hopefully no hard feelings. I am sorry that I said your post was mean.

Thinking about the cost of maintaining a life versus just letting that life die, or even accelerating that death, has been maintained as a symptom of suicidal ideation and can come from a multitude of issues, such as depression.

It is Not just letting a life die. It is knowing when excessive intervention is futile and when to leave it soley up to God. That’s a tough decision and I personally don’t want to ever have to make a decision like that. Unfortunately there are people every day having to make decisions and face issues like that. I can assure you that I am not depressed and do not have any suicidal intentions. But thanks again for your concern.

It is only very recently that the media in America has picked up the issue of killing newborns or euthanising the elderly or handicapped as a moral good. Before that popular change, wanting to kill or die was a symptom that the mind and/or body needed healing.

Actually it is a very old idea in many cultures. (Not Christian) Ancient Rome and Greece come to mind.

Also, you mentioned wondering if it would be wrong to deny extreme treatment. Can you define your interpretation of that?

No, every case is different and since we are talking hypotheticals no. I gave two scenarios of baby Kolby and baby Samuel and I can’t pass judgement on either one.

Do you consider providing oxygen to a person to be an extreme form of treatment? Is intubation extreme treatment?

Again hypothetical. Maybe in some cases.

If you experienced a severe allergic reaction, would you refuse intubation?

No, not if that was the only issue.

In the case of a newborn or child below the general age of reason, do you consider it okay to rule on the side of death?

Again go to Kolby’s story.
angelfire.com/hero/kolbysstory/index.html
I do not believe his parents ruled on the side of death, nor committed a mortal sin of murder

I was asking all my questions to try to find out what you were looking for in posting. What are you hoping to find out? Where do you see lines of thought ending?

Thats ok. Hopefully I’ve been clearer. When I originally posted I wanted to know would it be wrong to withhold extreme invasive aggressive treatment in some cases from a Catholic viewpoint. As I said I have already gotten the answer.

I am thankful I haven’t had to make these type of decisions. For people that do they need lots of prayer. Again hopefully no hard feelings.
Deana

 

[Brenda_V]

Deana - perhaps as Haskilee said it is a generational thing but I don’t see any problems with your questions. Honestly, today we are in need of thinking this kind of thing through. It is hard when you are in that situation to make a decision - and yes, I have been there with a child of my own, she lived 2 years longer than the “experts” told us she would but thanks be to God, He took her when it was her time without us having to make the decision to ventilate her or not. She was dead when she left our house to be taken to the hospital by the ambulance.

Because we had her we had to k ow what to do, if she stopped breathing what would we do? We didn’t have 911 let alone enhanced 911 in the city we lived in at the time so I kept the emergency phone number and our address written on/near the two phones we had in the house so whomever would have to call had everything in one place and if panic had started to set in everything was written down so all we had to do was read it!. This was far from “suicidal ideation”, it was practicality.

Haskilee - our OP has someone in her life who is in one of these life and death situations so it has come to her mind as to what she would do, sometimes thinking things through including the “what ifs” are a good thing and councilling is not necessary to take care of these thoughts, just talking to other like minded people helps.

Deana - you are relatively knew to the CAF (Catholic Answers Forums) so you may not have checked all the features but you can PM me, or others you wish to “talk to” outside the public forum by clicking on their name at the beginning of one of their posts and choose “PM (name of person)” and you will be taken to a site similar to one where you would post here on the public aspect of the forums only the person will be able to read what you posted so… having said this, if you wish to “talk” more privately about this feel free to p.m. me:thumbsup:.

Brenda V.

 

[deanarrca]

I was asking all my questions to try to find out what you were looking for in posting. What are you hoping to find out? Where do you see lines of thought ending?

Thats ok. Hopefully I’ve been clearer. When I originally posted I wanted to know would it be wrong to withhold extreme invasive aggressive treatment in some cases from a Catholic viewpoint. As I said I have already gotten the answer.

Ok I looked at this again and I think I see what you are asking me. I think somewhere in one of my earlier posts (and I really don’t want to go back and re-read all of them) I believe I said I am not sure I would have taken the same route as my sil. And that I probably would have let nature take its course. In other words I would have done what Kolby’s family did.And I probably wanted to know that if I had chosen that course would I be commiting a mortal sin or murder.

So You are right. I am not so sure now.I originally wrote this post over a year ago. People grow and rethink things.

Samuel is doing very well and many kids survive on ventilators. They have come along way. They are stronger, better and more portable. Living with a ventilator is not like the days of the old iron lungs. So my thinking is now why don’t more families go that route. To my knowledge it is not painful being on a ventilator. (But I don’t know) Also I really don’t know Samuel’s whole prognosis and all the details and I don’t wish to. My SII is a wonderfully positive person and only shares the positives So I don’t know if there are other issues involved.

(So Again hypothetical) I think now if I were in the same situation as my SIL or Kolby’s parents, and I had chosen to let nature take its course and my child died prematurely and then I saw a case like Samuels and that he is doing so well on the ventilator. I would regret my choice.

So I have thought about both sides and am thankful I have not had to actually make the choice.

So that is where I am at present.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with the OP, the bolded part was COMPLETELY uncalled for. IMHO

I also see no where in any of the OP’s posts where she indicated that she was having “daydreams” about this.

I have often wondered what I would do if my DH passed away suddenly, do I need professional help???

Yes, you need to contact a funeral home director and do a funeral pre-planning workshop, so that when he passes away, you will know exactly what to do and whom to call.

 

[JustAnotherThou]

OP, Thank you for pointing out that you started this post over a year ago. I really need to start checking the dates on the first post :doh2: sorry you had to go through all of this on here :hug1:

 

[hasikelee]

I agree with the OP, the bolded part was COMPLETELY uncalled for. IMHO

I also see no where in any of the OP’s posts where she indicated that she was having “daydreams” about this.

I have often wondered what I would do if my DH passed away suddenly, do I need professional help???

IMHO thinking and talking about things such as this is a way we mentally prepare ourselves for possible traumatic circumstances. Now if someone is ALWAYS thinking about it, then yes they probably do need professional help.

The Catholic Church does not say we have to take extreme measures to preserve life. What I, the OP, you or someone else considers extreme is our decision. And none of us should be chastised for our decision. As long as it falls into the guidlines of the Church.

My mother passed away at 55 due to an aneurysm, after 2 surgeries, it was determined that nothing more could be done. My family, with our Priest by our side, decided that we would do no more extreme measures to save her life. We were reassured by our Priest that we were not committing any sin. There are a few people out there that told us we “KILLED” our mother. I have talked to 2 different priests and 1 Bishop. They have reassured me that we did not kill our mother. People like you that gave me the impression that we should have taken every extreme measure possible to keep her alive made me question and struggle with our decision until……… Pope John Paul II decided not to have extreme measures taken. There is MUCH respect in dying a natural death!

I see often on this forum that other posters are quick to recommend the OP enlist the aid and guidance of a priest or spiritual advisor. There are also some posters who are quick to recommend the aid of professional medical personnel.

I know that demographics still represent a factor in the stigma related to seeking professional guidance, but, as I stated in my last post, it was not to facilitate emotions of unhappiness from the original poster, nor was it an attempt to offend.

Even when the individual has sound health of mind, someone who is knowledgeable and trained in certain areas can guide that person in delicate or troublesome issues much more than posting anonymously online can do.

Preparing for death is a reasonably normal procedure done in different ways, such as mentally, physically, financially and socially. Is it arguable that the OP was preparing for the death of her new relative? If so, then I apologize. The conversation regarding medical costs vs. living got me off track.