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Sina
Guest
I think you brought up a really interesting discussion and thank you for that. I too looked at the website and Samuel looks like the sweetest child I have ever seen. Wow. What a darling. He will be in my prayers.
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JustAnotherThou
Guest
I think you were a little rough on the OP. I read that she would be more than willing to take care of her nephew if it came to that. As far as her posting their ages and stuff. I believe sometimes all of us post too much information at times. We try to give as much info as we can, some people think it is too much, others want more detail. Really, there is a post on here where women are giving their bra sizes, talk about TMI!!!In an ideal world, every christian would step up to the plate GLADLY to offer themselves and their wallets to assist their fellow man and we wouldn’t need gov’t assistance. These issues are spiritual and corporal works of mercy, mercies we are all called to give as best we can.
In an ideal world, we would be paying for lesbians to get IVF and abortion, and there’d be more money to make babies healthier. In an ideal world my dh would have affordable insulin as an option on our insurance instead of affordable birth control options.
The fact that we do not live in an ideal world is not a good enough reason to decide certain people shouldn’t be given just as much a chance to live as someone else. Neither is it a good enough reason to refuse to assist those when we can as we best can.
And it has always been a problem in history.
Because before there was insurance, you simply didn’t get care unless you could pay or the local catholic hospital/monastery took you in and treated you as best they could. For the vast majority of history, medical care simple did not exist except for the elite of a society.
This is still the case in many places in the world. It’s not a question of ethics. It’s a question of money. No money = no care. The end.
And no, I would not tell a 95 year old man that I think it’s a waste of money to treat him because he’s already old anyways. You are basicly saying people who are too sick or too old are disposable. For all I know, he may do more good in this world with another 3 years than many middle aged people have in their entire lives. Not to mention he might find christ during that time if he hasn’t already. Most people are turned down for procedures because they are too ill to survive the procedure, which is not always an age factor.
Again, I think if one is terminal or nearly so and decides to forgo treatment, that is certainly their choice. But it’s not a choice if people are saying they should just hurry up and die instead of being a financial (or emotional or physical) drain on family and society. That’s a horrid and disgusting way to look at family. Or strangers for that matter.
If you wouldn’t want to give that much to the care of a child such as your nephew, then don’t. (I certainly hope your db and sil don’t read this!)
As for me, frankly my taxes go to a lot of c* and I’m glad to see that at lest some of it is assiting to a family like them. And they are just the kind of people who should have 4 more kids, imho. People who are willing to suffer anything for the sake of their kid. No amount of college can ever make up for having parents like that. What an awesome example of love and hope and faith!**
**Oh and who cares that your brother is the one staying home? Dad’s are supposed to take of their kids.**
Who cares about their age? Who would take care of the kid if the couple died in their 30s? Are you just concerned it’ll be you? Then make it clear to them you aren’t comfortable with it. Frankly, if they are thinking you would, then an honest discussion needs to be had now because it sounds like you would not be in agreement with their wishes on his treatments and they should know that about a person they are considering for guardenship in their will.
If we want to discuss medical wastes, then by all means let’s do so. There’s plenty of unneccessary things out there.
But saving or prolonging life, be it young, old, or disabled is not one of them.
I took the OP’s questions just as that, questions, she has expressed some of her beliefs, although I see her posts more as trying to understand what others think and that she has an open mind on her beliefs.
JMHO
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dontknow
Guest
To me, this is too personal of a question and too open for interpretation for their to be a “right or wrong” answer.
I know what I have made clear to my wife as she has me.
Do I believe in Hospice? You better believe it.
Do I believe in great medical care? Absolutely.
Drawing the line when to employ which can be the tricky part.
As technology advances, the “reasonable” line blurs. If this conversation took place 20,30,40 & 50 years ago, the answers would be different.
Oh well… Not much offered here other than to me it’s a personal decision since nothing factual can be offered since every case is different and medicine is much based on opinion.
I know what I have made clear to my wife as she has me.
Do I believe in Hospice? You better believe it.
Do I believe in great medical care? Absolutely.
Drawing the line when to employ which can be the tricky part.
As technology advances, the “reasonable” line blurs. If this conversation took place 20,30,40 & 50 years ago, the answers would be different.
Oh well… Not much offered here other than to me it’s a personal decision since nothing factual can be offered since every case is different and medicine is much based on opinion.
Absolutely, and if people like the OP’s SIL *didn’t *take chances by defying “conventional wisdom”, how would we know what strides could be made in improving quality of life for those who are deemed “paperweights” by our society?
How long ago was it that cancer was an automatic death sentence? My husband has been cancer-free for 20 years (stage IV Hodgkins’ disease). How long ago was it that babies born at 20-25 weeks gestation had slim to none chances of survival? How long ago was it that organ transplants or even blood transfusions were the stuff of science fiction?
Everyday there is some kind of miracle performed in a lab somewhere, that gets us one step closer to helping stroke victims, developmentally disabled citizens, physically handicapped people (whether by birth or accident), and chronically ill people overcome supposedly insurmountable obstacles. But would anyone be even LOOKING for those miracles if no one cared enough to give those lives a chance?
I always recall the words the Ghost of Christmas Present said to Scrooge when shown Bob Cratchit’s family together at Christmas, with Tiny Tim moving Scrooge to beg the Ghost that his life be spared:
“… the child will die. What then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”
- Scrooge hung his head to hear his own words quoted by the Spirit, and was overcome with penitence and grief.*
- “Man,” said the Ghost, “if man you be in heart, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered what the surplus is, and where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be that, in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child!”*
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Rob_s_Wife
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**Yikes. First thing first. I would like to clarify that it should have read "… lesbians would NOT get IVF … :doh2: **
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:doh2: ****Amen!
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SerenaHC
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Uh, thank you for clarifying that lesbian comment. Had me worried!Yikes. First thing first. I would like to clarify that it should have read "… lesbians would NOT get IVF …
**Amen!
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pumpkinbeast
Guest
I’ve been following Samuel’s story for quite awhile now, and in my opinion, the medical care has not been wasted on him. From what I’ve read, he’s actually been improving, needing less oxygen in his ventilator as he gets older, starting to eat a bit. I don’t know how long he’ll live, but for now he’s getting stronger every day, it seems.
Food and water should always be a given, and perhaps air as well. If that’s all you need to stay alive, well, you’re doing the same as the rest of us!
Measures past that would have to be determined on a case-to-case basis, taking into account the person’s wishes, their age, how severe their condition is, how much of a chance of further survival they have (take the 95yo who needs a new heart, for example: if there is a large risk they wouldn’t survive the transplant procedure, then it might be a better choice to forgo it). One is not required by the Church, as far as I know, to take ‘extreme’ measures to save a life. As far as money goes, if you have the money, great! Take advantage of it! Unless it’s getting to the point where you can’t feed the rest of your family or something else… I don’t think there is anything morally wrong with being a bit poorer, and last time I checked, the Church agreed. As long as you’re fulfilling your duties as a parent (food, clothing, shelter, education(which does NOT include college), and taking care of yourself as well, you can have any amount of money extra you want, as far as I’m concerned.
Anyway, each of these ‘Ethical Dilemmas’ is a dilemma for a reason: the answer is not immediately clear, and two similar situations might have completely different answers, because of some tiny difference. If that sounded confusing, that’s because dilemmas are confusing.
Oh, and a good solid answer in any situation: Prayer. If you’re unsure about what you should do, well, the one person who will know is God.
Food and water should always be a given, and perhaps air as well. If that’s all you need to stay alive, well, you’re doing the same as the rest of us!
Measures past that would have to be determined on a case-to-case basis, taking into account the person’s wishes, their age, how severe their condition is, how much of a chance of further survival they have (take the 95yo who needs a new heart, for example: if there is a large risk they wouldn’t survive the transplant procedure, then it might be a better choice to forgo it). One is not required by the Church, as far as I know, to take ‘extreme’ measures to save a life. As far as money goes, if you have the money, great! Take advantage of it! Unless it’s getting to the point where you can’t feed the rest of your family or something else… I don’t think there is anything morally wrong with being a bit poorer, and last time I checked, the Church agreed. As long as you’re fulfilling your duties as a parent (food, clothing, shelter, education(which does NOT include college), and taking care of yourself as well, you can have any amount of money extra you want, as far as I’m concerned.Anyway, each of these ‘Ethical Dilemmas’ is a dilemma for a reason: the answer is not immediately clear, and two similar situations might have completely different answers, because of some tiny difference. If that sounded confusing, that’s because dilemmas are confusing.
Oh, and a good solid answer in any situation: Prayer. If you’re unsure about what you should do, well, the one person who will know is God.
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deanarrca
Guest
Hi - Me the Original Poster
<<I took the OP’s questions just as that, questions,
I took the questions to be implied as though there was something wrong with the situation. Something wrong with dad staying home b/c mom has the better job situation. Something wrong with making this choice because they are older and the burden could be inherited by someone else when they die.>>
Not at all. I don’t have a problem with that or anything. Just I know my SIL would give anything to be the one able to stay home with him. It is just the way it worked out. No judgement there at all. Also she has longed for a child and Samuel is a miracle. But I know it is not what they planned. And no matter how you want to spin it as a blessing, there is still loss and grieving of what could have been. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned their ages. And I really believe I have spoken to much about their particular situation which I really didn’t intend to do. My mistake.
I love them and Samuel. He is a miracle. But there is another board I frequent and it is a board for mothers who have gotten poor prognosis or devastating news during their pregnancies. You hear their stories which are all different and unique and many face ethical dilemmas that most of us will never have to deal with. Most on that other particular board are those who have chosen to carry to term despite the prognosis of their babies and pressure to terminate from the medical establishment. But once the baby comes they face issues of how much intervention. Many choose not to go to extreme measures and let nature take its course. I could not and would never judge them for there decisions.
I was questioning what I personally might do which is truly hypothetical because I have not faced anything close to those situations. My only question is when do you let God decide. When does Man step aside and let God take over. Would it always be a sin or are there times in special cases where letting nature takes it’s course is justified.
Samuel is awesome. I also know that maybe the reason only 2 children with his condition have survived into childhood and one
to teenage is because the women are counciled to have theraputic abortions or don’t go to extreme measures. They don’t know how these kids develop. But like someone else said it is only recently they have specialized new ventilators and things to enable these babies to possibly survive longer. In Sam’s case just so you know he is a type of dwarf where his rib cage is too small for his lungs and heart and as he grows bigger his ribcage will not grow. That is why these babies die. Sam may beat the odds. I would like to think that my SIl has encouraged other mothers with the same diagnosis to consider doing what she has done. I want others to know there is a baby out there surviving who has beaten the odds. Maybe they will then see maybe it is worthwhile to research treatments.
I was just saying out loud what many question. even the most Godly people have these types of questions from time to time.
As I said what we went through with our handicapped son doesn’t even compare to what they are going through. They are awesome, they also have a huge support from us their family and friends and their church. But it is not what they had hoped when they got married 3 years ago. They need everyones prayers.
<<I took the OP’s questions just as that, questions,
I took the questions to be implied as though there was something wrong with the situation. Something wrong with dad staying home b/c mom has the better job situation. Something wrong with making this choice because they are older and the burden could be inherited by someone else when they die.>>
Not at all. I don’t have a problem with that or anything. Just I know my SIL would give anything to be the one able to stay home with him. It is just the way it worked out. No judgement there at all. Also she has longed for a child and Samuel is a miracle. But I know it is not what they planned. And no matter how you want to spin it as a blessing, there is still loss and grieving of what could have been. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned their ages. And I really believe I have spoken to much about their particular situation which I really didn’t intend to do. My mistake.
I love them and Samuel. He is a miracle. But there is another board I frequent and it is a board for mothers who have gotten poor prognosis or devastating news during their pregnancies. You hear their stories which are all different and unique and many face ethical dilemmas that most of us will never have to deal with. Most on that other particular board are those who have chosen to carry to term despite the prognosis of their babies and pressure to terminate from the medical establishment. But once the baby comes they face issues of how much intervention. Many choose not to go to extreme measures and let nature take its course. I could not and would never judge them for there decisions.
I was questioning what I personally might do which is truly hypothetical because I have not faced anything close to those situations. My only question is when do you let God decide. When does Man step aside and let God take over. Would it always be a sin or are there times in special cases where letting nature takes it’s course is justified.
Samuel is awesome. I also know that maybe the reason only 2 children with his condition have survived into childhood and one
to teenage is because the women are counciled to have theraputic abortions or don’t go to extreme measures. They don’t know how these kids develop. But like someone else said it is only recently they have specialized new ventilators and things to enable these babies to possibly survive longer. In Sam’s case just so you know he is a type of dwarf where his rib cage is too small for his lungs and heart and as he grows bigger his ribcage will not grow. That is why these babies die. Sam may beat the odds. I would like to think that my SIl has encouraged other mothers with the same diagnosis to consider doing what she has done. I want others to know there is a baby out there surviving who has beaten the odds. Maybe they will then see maybe it is worthwhile to research treatments.
I was just saying out loud what many question. even the most Godly people have these types of questions from time to time.
As I said what we went through with our handicapped son doesn’t even compare to what they are going through. They are awesome, they also have a huge support from us their family and friends and their church. But it is not what they had hoped when they got married 3 years ago. They need everyones prayers.
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hasikelee
Guest
Taking a step back, away from the personal aspect…
What about the social aspect? Imagine if doctors had decided that open heart surgery was too costly. Barely 20-25 years ago, it was considered an outrageously expensive medical procedure with a 50% chance of surviving.
My husband had that surgery when it was still considered clinical. His parents signed a waiver to have it done. It cost a whole heck of a lot of money. Well, I certainly am glad they spent that money.
Today, not only is the cost of that surgery much, much less, but it is also obsolete (except in specific cases). Because scientists and doctors spent the money researching, they were able to find other, better ways of helping people. Things such as bypasses wouldn’t exist if we had cried about the money.
Imagine if we believed in stopping the progress of science and medicine because it was too costly. We would have to eliminate almost every aspect of our health care today…antibiotics, immunisations, all surgeries, x-rays, MRIs, cat scans, chemotherapy…
Pshaw
What about the social aspect? Imagine if doctors had decided that open heart surgery was too costly. Barely 20-25 years ago, it was considered an outrageously expensive medical procedure with a 50% chance of surviving.
My husband had that surgery when it was still considered clinical. His parents signed a waiver to have it done. It cost a whole heck of a lot of money. Well, I certainly am glad they spent that money.
Today, not only is the cost of that surgery much, much less, but it is also obsolete (except in specific cases). Because scientists and doctors spent the money researching, they were able to find other, better ways of helping people. Things such as bypasses wouldn’t exist if we had cried about the money.
Imagine if we believed in stopping the progress of science and medicine because it was too costly. We would have to eliminate almost every aspect of our health care today…antibiotics, immunisations, all surgeries, x-rays, MRIs, cat scans, chemotherapy…
Pshaw
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SerenaHC
Guest
My 12 year old’s skull won’t grow, although his brain does. When he was three months old, they cut his skull into several pieces and then reconnected them with a type of mesh that stretches as he grows. Perhaps they can do something similar with Sam’s ribs.
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jmcrae
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That’s fascinating. How is he doing?
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deanarrca
Guest
I found this online last night. It is the Story of Kolby who had the same diagnosis as my nephew Samuel. This I felt gave an example of the ethical dilemma and a face to a similar story. I felt that I had shared too much personal info about my nephew here, and since I am only his aunt that probably is not my place. My questions and soul searching however are very sincere. In this story Kolby’s parents followed a different path than my sil and chose not to intubate and put Kolby on a ventilator. The story is very moving.
KOLBY’S STORY: Thanatophoric Dysplasia Personified
angelfire.com/hero/kolbysstory/index.html
KOLBY’S STORY: Thanatophoric Dysplasia Personified
angelfire.com/hero/kolbysstory/index.html
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hasikelee
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What is your point in the post? Are you looking for an argument on stopping all medical treatments due to cost? In that case, I am correct in assuming you have never used any of our current medical technology or treatments, right?
Are you looking for a justifiable or situationally moral excuse to deliberately kill someone due to their medical condition? This exists already, so you don’t have to make an argument for it. In Holland, it only takes two doctors to label a child as having a “low quality of life” or a “future low quality of life” and they are allowed to kill the child with or without the parents’ permission.
Do you consistently follow this ideal? For example, are you suffering from suicidal ideation…meaning you imagine that if you were in a car accident and sustained incredibly damage…which would take hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to heal you…would you request the ventilator be removed? Have you considered seeking professional guidance on these daydreams?
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SerenaHC
Guest
He’s doing great. His skull expands at a normal rate as he grows. It’s shaped a little funny but it doesn’t squeeze his brain anymore.That’s fascinating. How is he doing?
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deanarrca
Guest
Definitely not looking for an argument. I don’t believe you have read this whole thread from the beginning. If so you certainly missed my intentions. My question was simply would it be wrong to withhold extreme invasive aggressive treatment in some cases. This is an issue that has touched my family. And you are wrong in assuming anything. I am in a post RCIA class where we are exploring Catholic morality. I have recieved my answer already from people on this thread , the Priest at my church and the Deacons who are running the RCIA program that it is not considered murder or morally wrong to not always go for the most argressive extreme treatment and it is acceptable to let nature take its course in some cases.
But I am not passing judgment on any particular case. I posted the Kolby case because i thought it was very moving. And I quess my point was (and you need to go to their site and read their story) that they did not murder or commit sin when they chose to not ventilate there child. (they had him on oxygen but they chose not to intubate and put him on a ventilator) I do not judge them. Likewise I think my sister in law took a noble step to intubate and I just shared the cost of that choice. Again no judgement in right or wrong. The point is these decisions are difficult. And everyone deserves love support and prayers in the difficult situation espsecially if it hits your family or those close to you.
I am so sorry you misinterpreted my intentions and you did hurt my feelings.
That was pretty mean of you to say
<<are you suffering from suicidal ideation…meaning you imagine that if you were in a car accident and sustained incredibly damage…which would take hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to heal you…would you request the ventilator be removed? Have you considered seeking professional guidance on these daydreams?..>>
As a new Catholic that was very hurtful. I simply wanted to explore the morality of choices within a Catholic framework. I have great empathy love and love for Samuel and my SIL and the utmost respect for the choices they made. I support them 100%. Yes I have wondered how I might have handled the situation if I were in her shoes. You made me regret even posting this topic or question.
Sincerely Deana
PS: For Serena
For Serena who shared about her son and his skull and could they do something similar for Samuel. To my understanding there was one treatment called a Titanium Rib. It can be used in some cases of thorasic restriction to enlarge the ribcage. My sil looked into this and according to her website the doctors felt that Samuel wasn’t a candidate for this. I don’t know the specifics.
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hasikelee
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deanarrca
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OK this was an oops didn’t mean to hit the submit button yet
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Teeliumtrozzle
Guest
I am happy for Samuel. All babies should be cared for like that.
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JustAnotherThou
Guest
I agree with the OP, the bolded part was COMPLETELY uncalled for. IMHO
I also see no where in any of the OP’s posts where she indicated that she was having “daydreams” about this.
I have often wondered what I would do if my DH passed away suddenly, do I need professional help???
IMHO thinking and talking about things such as this is a way we mentally prepare ourselves for possible traumatic circumstances. Now if someone is ALWAYS thinking about it, then yes they probably do need professional help.
The Catholic Church does not say we have to take extreme measures to preserve life. What I, the OP, you or someone else considers extreme is our decision. And none of us should be chastised for our decision. As long as it falls into the guidlines of the Church.
My mother passed away at 55 due to an aneurysm, after 2 surgeries, it was determined that nothing more could be done. My family, with our Priest by our side, decided that we would do no more extreme measures to save her life. We were reassured by our Priest that we were not committing any sin. There are a few people out there that told us we “KILLED” our mother. I have talked to 2 different priests and 1 Bishop. They have reassured me that we did not kill our mother. People like you that gave me the impression that we should have taken every extreme measure possible to keep her alive made me question and struggle with our decision until……… Pope John Paul II decided not to have extreme measures taken. There is MUCH respect in dying a natural death!
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JustAnotherThou
Guest
Just to add another thought. I do not see anything wrong with people who will take more extreme measures than I would. I don’t judge them, just and I pray they don’t judge me.
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