Life outside of Earth

[ricmat]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but ID talks about large jumps, not just changes over time. This would mean there is more of a difference than just guided vs not guided. I incorrectly assumed that if we agreed on small gradual changes, we were talking about guided vs non guided evolution, not evolution verses id.

Firstly let me say that I’m not sure “guided” is exactly the right word to home in on. I like the word myself. But the D in ID implies a purpose, a design, a source of information that is not achieved randomly with only the fundamental forces of nature in action. There can be small or large changes in ID. We probably agree that selective breeding is a form of guidance, intelligently designed (if the breeder knows what he/she is doing). And that process would result in incremental small changes.

One thing I was very confused by was this line form intelligentdesign.org: “Yes. The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion. Intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI).”

How does one observe an intelligent agent producing a CSI?

Turn on your webcam, and I’ll watch you type

 

[DysonSphere]

The entire universe is very well-conditioned for life, compared to many other possible universes. There are likely many regions where intelligent life could have evolved. Whether this has happened or not can only be satisfactorily answered in the affirmative by observing strong evidence for such intelligent life.

Given the size of the universe, potential for planets capable of supporting life, and whether you believe the probability of life on other planets is large or small, I think is is unlikely anyone would say it is totally impossible. If life were to exit on other planets, would there be a human like species (that is, they have a soul) or would all life comparable to the animals of this world (that is, part of creation, but little more)?

The universe is just so huge, I believe there probably is be some form of life on some other capable plant, though it would probably not be life as we recognize. However, I can’t seem to decide what I believe about the question I asked. Is there any sort of Church teaching (I’m guessing not)?

Feel free to add your own opinion on the extraterrestrial!

 

[ricmat]

The entire universe is very well-conditioned for life, compared to many other possible universes. There are likely many regions where intelligent life could have evolved. Whether this has happened or not can only be satisfactorily answered in the affirmative by observing strong evidence for such intelligent life.

“Many other possible universes…” - we have no evidence of any of them. It’s an interesting idea, but because something is not mathematically impossible does not mean that it exists.

This universe is extremely fine tuned for life, but this doesn’t imply that life would exist all over the place in this universe. The book Privileged Planet (and others) goes into this in a lot of detail.

The fine tuning required just to get a stable universe, or one that’s not all hydrogen, or one that doesn’t collapse back on itself after a few dozen years, is quite remarkable. For example, let’s say you literally spanned the universe from one end to the other with a measuring tape (in inches, since I’m in the US ), and identified the current value of the gravitational constant. If you varied the value by just one inch in either direction there would be NO universe at all. That’s 1 inch over 14 billion light years. Never mind silicon based life, or Star-Trekkian sorts of aliens. Very minor “adjustments” in the fine tuning constants generally mean that there is “nothing”, not just some universe in which humans have 6 fingers instead of 5, or three eyes instead of 2.

I’m not aware of any evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligent life, or any other life at this point. That would certainly be big news if confirmed.

 

[NoMoreGames]

“Many other possible universes…” - we have no evidence of any of them. It’s an interesting idea, but because something is not mathematically impossible does not mean that it exists.

As a person who shares many of your spiritual beliefs, please don’t take this as a personal attack, but I always find it hypocritical when someone who believes in something as unprovable as say, the Real Presence, dismisses and idea due to lack of evidence.

If you varied the value by just one inch in either direction there would be NO universe at all. That’s 1 inch over 14 billion light years.

I’m not doubting you, but can i have the link to the paper you read this in? I find the scale of our universe fascinating and would love to see what else it discusses.

 

[ricmat]

As a person who shares many of your spiritual beliefs, please don’t take this as a personal attack, but I always find it hypocritical when someone who believes in something as unprovable as say, the Real Presence, dismisses and idea due to lack of evidence.

I wasn’t dismissing the idea. I just said there wasn’t any evidence. Most advances start with an idea and no evidence. At this point, there is no evidence. Some people say that because mathematics doesn’t rule it out, then it has to exist. I was just commenting on that position (which I disagree with).

With regard to the Real Presence, I believe in the evidence in John 6. And 1 Corinthians. And the CCC. And the Eucharist miracles documented by the Church.

I’m not doubting you, but can i have the link to the paper you read this in? I find the scale of our universe fascinating and would love to see what else it discusses.

It may have been in Privileged Planet, I don’t remember exactly where I read it. Whenever I find an article regarding “fine-tuning” I usually read it and then forget where I read it I’ll do a quick search through my materials and if I find it I’ll let you know.

 

[NoMoreGames]

I wasn’t dismissing the idea. I just said there wasn’t any evidence. Most advances start with an idea and no evidence. At this point, there is no evidence. Some people say that because mathematics doesn’t rule it out, then it has to exist. I was just commenting on that position (which I disagree with).

Actually, most advances start by building upon previous knowledge, just pulling something out of thin air. There may not be enough evidence to support it completely, but there is typically some initial data to spur the idea.

With regard to the Real Presence, I believe in the evidence in John 6. And 1 Corinthians. And the CCC. And the Eucharist miracles documented by the Church.

I’m not saying it’s not true, but citing a book (the Bible is a book after all) as proof is just as rational as saying wizards are real because I read it in Harry Potter. I’m not relating the Bible to fiction, I’m just saying it in terms of logical fallacies. Also, miracles are miracles because they cannot be explained at this point in time. That’s saying there is no evidence to lead to the conclusion of how it happened. So your evidence is an event that has no evidence yet…hmm. But that’s a totally different topic. I don’t mean to offend.

It may have been in Privileged Planet, I don’t remember exactly where I read it. Whenever I find an article regarding “fine-tuning” I usually read it and then forget where I read it I’ll do a quick search through my materials and if I find it I’ll let you know.

mmk. I searched quite a bit and couldn’t find it, so when/if you do, please let me know

 

[ricmat]

Actually, most advances start by building upon previous knowledge, just pulling something out of thin air. There may not be enough evidence to support it completely, but there is typically some initial data to spur the idea.

So the Greek guy (forgot his name) that postulated the existence of the atom had previous knowledge about atoms? I doubt it.

But at this point, so far as alternative universes, there is no evidence. Since evidence is obviously important to you, so should the lack of evidence be important to you.

I’m not saying it’s not true, but citing a book (the Bible is a book after all) as proof is just as rational as saying wizards are real because I read it in Harry Potter. I’m not relating the Bible to fiction, I’m just saying it in terms of logical fallacies. Also, miracles are miracles because they cannot be explained at this point in time. That’s saying there is no evidence to lead to the conclusion of how it happened. So your evidence is an event that has no evidence yet…hmm. But that’s a totally different topic. I don’t mean to offend.

The evidence that I quoted above is good enough for me. That you are not impressed with it does not impress me (as in, will have no effect on me). Please don’t be disappointed.

Virtually everything you know (with regard to science anyway) has been told to you by someone else, and you accept those things because you trust the source. It is no different on my side.

Of course you mean to offend. Otherwise, your Harry Potter comment would not have been made.

And the old “it’s only a miracle until we figure it out” - What faith you have, brother!

Have a nice day.

 

[NoMoreGames]

So the Greek guy (forgot his name) that postulated the existence of the atom had previous knowledge about atoms? I doubt it.

No, he had observations about matter and how it behaved. And besides, his idea of an atom was a philosophical thing, not a scientific hypotheses. It didn’t become scientific until Dalton.

But at this point, so far as alternative universes, there is no evidence. Since evidence is obviously important to you, so should the lack of evidence be important to you.

I never said I thought they existed.

The evidence that I quoted above is good enough for me. That you are not impressed with it does not impress me (as in, will have no effect on me). Please don’t be disappointed.

Virtually everything you know (with regard to science anyway) has been told to you by someone else, and you accept those things because you trust the source. It is no different on my side.

Actually every day I walk into a lab and see it happening before my eyes. Not unlike the works of faith you see in your everyday life. I think you are confusing the terms know and believe. My pastor recently gave a sermon stating that we don’t know anything about the mysteries of our faith (such as the Real Presence). We believe it.

Of course you mean to offend. Otherwise, your Harry Potter comment would not have been made.

Think what you want, but I wasn’t. I could have said any book, I just finished re-reading one so it was the first that came to mind. I didn’t mean to compare God to a fictional character, I was just expressing evidence vs non evidence (that is, something testable vs something written).

And the old “it’s only a miracle until we figure it out” - What faith you have, brother!

Just because I don’t have faith in the same things you do doesn’t mean I don’t have faith. I just believe the physical world will always have a rational explination. I think the laws of this universe (including those that drive evolution) were what early people described as Creation. The spiritual world on the other hand, cannot be explained by science.

Have a nice day.

It’s unfortunate when you’re having what you thought was a great dialogue with some one, then they take things the wrong way despite what you explicitly stated, and show a complete change in disposition.

I though we were taking about what is evidence vs what can be confused as evidence. That is all I ever meant.

I started this dialogue on a Catholic forum because 1) I am Catholic, 2) I was curious about what other like-minded people (in the spiritual sense) thought about the topic. I wouldn’t spend all this time discussing different topics if all I wanted to do was offend you.

 

[presidentjlh]

All I know is, if we discover aliens, and they also have the Catholic Church, we will then truly know the Church is indeed “universal”

 

[NoMoreGames]

All I know is, if we discover aliens, and they also have the Catholic Church, we will then truly know the Church is indeed “universal”

Indeed What if they didn’t have any religion at all?

 

[donsnow]

Indeed What if they didn’t have any religion at all?

Then, the Catholic Church has a brand new mission field, to which to take the Gospel.

 

[NoMoreGames]

Then, the Catholic Church has a brand new mission field, to which to take the Gospel.

I’m just asking questions that are floating around my head, I hope you don’t mind.

Assuming these being had souls, where do you think their souls would go after death, before our encounter?

 

[NoMoreGames]

Then, the Catholic Church has a brand new mission field, to which to take the Gospel.

I’m just asking questions that are floating around my head, I hope you don’t mind.

Assuming these being had souls, where do you think their souls would go after death, before our encounter?

 

[DysonSphere]

“Many other possible universes…” - we have no evidence of any of them. It’s an interesting idea, but because something is not mathematically impossible does not mean that it exists.

I did not mean the multiverse. I do not think there is one because of a lack of evidence.

This universe is extremely fine tuned for life, but this doesn’t imply that life would exist all over the place in this universe. The book Privileged Planet (and others) goes into this in a lot of detail.

This is what I meant. Given other possible universes (by which I mean universes we could imagine, not universes that exist), most of them could not sustain life as we know it. A small number of them could sustain life far more easily. It is interesting that we seem to be in that very unlikely place where life is present but rare. It is the ideal environment for doing science, both because the science is most interesting, and because there is someone to do it.

About the fine tuning, I strongly suggest going to “Closer to Truth”, and listening to Dyson’s discussion on the topic.

I’m not aware of any evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligent life, or any other life at this point. That would certainly be big news if confirmed.

There is no conclusive evidence, but I find the fine-tuning, along with the size of the universe, as compelling circumstantial evidence for the existence of life. It’s not just our little corner of the universe, but vast regions, that have the right chemical composition and physical conditions, potentially, for life. This suggest that life is likely in many other places in our universe.

Of course, we won’t have any real confidence in this evidence until such life is observed.

 

[ricmat]

I started this dialogue on a Catholic forum because 1) I am Catholic, 2) I was curious about what other like-minded people (in the spiritual sense) thought about the topic. I wouldn’t spend all this time discussing different topics if all I wanted to do was offend you.

I did read it the wrong way. Sorry. Electronic media is difficult because there is no body language, etc.

OK - control ALT delete. Reboot.

Hello, NoMoreGames. Nice to meet you. Welcome to the forums.

BTW - if you’re Catholic, perhaps you can change your profile to show that.

 

[ricmat]

It is interesting that we seem to be in that very unlikely place where life is present but rare. It is the ideal environment for doing science, both because the science is most interesting, and because there is someone to do it.

Your statement above is almost a direct word for word description of what’s in Privileged Planet. Have you read the book?

About the fine tuning, I strongly suggest going to “Closer to Truth”, and listening to Dyson’s discussion on the topic.

I didn’t know that Dyson was still alive. I watched one of the videos on that site. It was very interesting, so thank you for suggesting it (I assume that it was the video you were suggesting). For a prominent Physicist he seems to have a good balanced view of things.

I especially liked his terms “Scientific Fundamentalism” and “Scientific Imperialism”, and his noting the “arrogant Biologists.”

 

[DysonSphere]

Your statement above is almost a direct word for word description of what’s in Privileged Planet. Have you read the book?

No, but I already know the author is an excellent writer.

I will look into getting the book.

I didn’t know that Dyson was still alive. I watched one of the videos on that site. It was very interesting, so thank you for suggesting it (I assume that it was the video you were suggesting). For a prominent Physicist he seems to have a good balanced view of things.

I especially liked his terms “Scientific Fundamentalism” and “Scientific Imperialism”, and his noting the “arrogant Biologists.”

It’s pretty amazing, Dyson is still alive. It is impressive how grounded and humble he’s stayed, after so many amazing discoveries.

I also like his terms. When I hear Dawkins preach, all I can think of is “Scientific Fundamentalist”.

 

[NoMoreGames]

I did read it the wrong way. Sorry. Electronic media is difficult because there is no body language, etc.

OK - control ALT delete. Reboot.

Hello, NoMoreGames. Nice to meet you. Welcome to the forums.

BTW - if you’re Catholic, perhaps you can change your profile to show that.

Indeed, though it is perhaps one of my favorite challenges of the internet. It means you have to be painstakingly specific with your language.

Nice to meet you as well. I thoroughly enjoy our discussions.

I like to keep my profile blank because I don’t want to be spoken to differently because the other person assumes they know how i think due to my beliefs. I love debate, even if I don’t agree with the side I’m fighting for. It’s like a marathon for you mind, for all parties involved.

But anyways, I saw that the discovery channel is having a special called “Inot the Universe with Hawking.” One of the topics seems to be his opinion on life outside of our planet. Perhaps it will be interesting and give us some things to discuss. 4/25 at 9:00pm.

 

[donsnow]

I’m just asking questions that are floating around my head, I hope you don’t mind.

Assuming these being had souls, where do you think their souls would go after death, before our encounter?

I like to think, that if there were intelligent beings on other planets, they did not fall from grace. Upon that premise, I answer your question that their souls would go to the Lord, or to the “Bosom of Abraham” or to Paradise. Also considering my premise, I wonder if those beings might actually enjoy immortality, because they have not fallen from grace.