"Life saving abortions" and statistics

[St_Francis]

Suppose there is a woman in one room of the hospital who needs a heart tranplant, and in the very next room, there is a boy who is a perfect match. Can we take his heart, which would kill him, and transplant it to the woman? Of course everyone would say this is totally crazy. If however the boy is her unborn child and still residing in her womb, we say it is all right to kill him to save her life.

The problem is notthe number of lives saved or lost. People die every day. Tonight on my way home from Mass, I saw an accident which may well have rwsulted in a death. This past Wednesday, I attended a funeral. Death comes to all of us Later for many, but sooner for some.

The issue then is *sin. *The issue is the actions we chose to undertake. The balance is not between lives saved or lost; the balance is between committing sin or not. To save a soul from an eternity of fires in Hell and to save a physical life for a few years.

 

[vera_dicere]

Theres’s actually no condition that requires the direct and willed destruction of the foetus to save the mother.

The confusion stems from when the pregnancy has to be “terminated”, which is quite assinine really because pregnanices naturally terminate themselves after 9 months.

But in all seriousness, the woman’s life can be saved by ending the pregnancy earlier, at the point of viability, to give the child a better chance. Most serious conditions of pregnancy can be maintained safety until viability. So women can be saved without having to kill the foetus directly.

Ectopic pregnancies are a different kettle of fish, but the death of the foetus in those circumstances comes under second affect or whatever the term is.

 

[Pelly]

I have this dilemma, too. I’ve learned about abortions and their punishment at 3rd grade.
But what should a doctor do in the case of extrauterine pregnancies? I’ve heard about healthy babies been born from an ovarian pregnancy… but should we presume this miracle?
What is the worse? Presumption, that can cause the death of the mother and the baby, or abortion? If the technology that can transfer extrauterine pregnancies to the uterus without serious harm, then extrauterine pregnancies would be just lame excuses.
Is emergency premature caesarians ( not abortions!) moral in this case? Nowadays we have sufficent technology to help premature babies survive, but a premature baby is very vulnerable.

 

[St_Francis]

I have this dilemma, too. I’ve learned about abortions and their punishment at 3rd grade.
But what should a doctor do in the case of extrauterine pregnancies? I’ve heard about healthy babies been born from an ovarian pregnancy… but should we presume this miracle?
What is the worse? Presumption, that can cause the death of the mother and the baby, or abortion? If the technology that can transfer extrauterine pregnancies to the uterus without serious harm, then extrauterine pregnancies would be just lame excuses.
Is emergency premature caesarians ( not abortions!) moral in this case? Nowadays we have sufficent technology to help premature babies survive, but a premature baby is very vulnerable.

Presumption as a sin holds only in very specific cases: that of people who are deliberating sinning with the idea that they will be forgiven or that they can go to Confession afterwards.

Not committing a sin does not involve presumption at all.

 

[Ubenedictus]

You have to be more careful about your words. In common everyday language, “an abortion”’ refers to what doctors call “induced abortion” and the Church calls “direct abortion.”

The Church never, ever, ever permits direct abortion. The very action is in and of itself wrong.

The Church permits *medical treatment *of a mother’s condition even in cases when the life of the baby is indirectly endangered, as with an operation to remove part of the mother’s Fallopian tube where the baby has implanted. This also results in the removal and subsequent death of the baby, but the baby is not targeted, nor is the baby’s death intended by the operation.

ok, i see your point. Im sorry for carelessly using words.
Peace

 

[markeverett49]

I agree with much that has been said here. (I oppose all direct procured abortions. I held this view even before I was a Catholic-----I was raised ANTI-Catholic, far as that goes–and think it is solid moral teaching.
I remember starting college in 1978 and taking an intro to philosophy class. Then, the argument was whether a fetus is a human being. The “cake” analogy was common—sure, it’s a cake when it comes OUT of the oven, but that don’t mean it was a cake when you put it IN the oven. I doubt that analogy is used much anymore because the science has advanced (and the technology) so that even pro-choice advocates acknowledge that the fetus is a human being. (Duh.) Now the argument has shifted to “personhood,” not humanity.

Which is why I’m surprised to see arguments about “life saving abortions” at all anymore. People who think it is okay for a doctor to “let die” a child who survives a late-term abortion and is wholly intact, outside the mother’s body, really have no business arguing that abortion is “justified” in cases where a woman’s life is in danger (-or when the child’s father is a rapist). The pro-choice movement holds that a woman may have an abortion for any reason she chooses, and she need give no reason at all, and the state should have no say because the woman may do with her unborn child whatever she wants.

I notice that even the term “abortion” is avoided by many pro-choice advocates. It’s now ‘reproductive rights’ (-the right to kill an unwanted child) or “women’s health issues.”

 

[CuriousAndy]

Another curious, open-minded question regarding abortion here…

Wouldn’t making abortion illegal by law increase the risk of ‘back street’ abortions, which might not only harm the mother, but also the child if it is later to be born?

 

[markeverett49]

Wouldn’t making abortion illegal by law increase the risk of ‘back street’ abortions, which might not only harm the mother, but also the child if it is later to be born?

The phrase is “back alley” and you may have heard that before Roe v Wade was passed, 10,000 women died annually due to back alley abortions. This was a lie. The number was made up out of whole cloth and many journalists reported it without checking it out.

If abortion were illegal, would some women turn to, shall we say, unregulated methods of terminating a pregnancy? I suspect some would.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

The phrase is “back alley” and you may have heard that before Roe v Wade was passed, 10,000 women died annually due to back alley abortions. This was a lie. The number was made up out of whole cloth and many journalists reported it without checking it out.

If abortion were illegal, would some women turn to, shall we say, unregulated methods of terminating a pregnancy? I suspect some would.

Compare 10,000 to the millions of abortions right now…

 

[markeverett49]

Compare 10,000 to the millions of abortions right now…

I’m opposed to all direct procured abortions. My point was that the idea that “thousands of women would die in back-alley abortions” is based on a lie. Bernard Nathonson talks about this in his book “The Hand of God: A Journey from Death to Life by the Abortion Doctor Who Changed His Mind.” The number was made up and repeatedly reported though NO evidence supported it.(No such evidence exists.) Pro-life advocates should be aware of this.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

I’m opposed to all direct procured abortions. My point was that the idea that “thousands of women would die in back-alley abortions” is based on a lie. Bernard Nathonson talks about this in his book “The Hand of God: A Journey from Death to Life by the Abortion Doctor Who Changed His Mind.” The number was made up and repeatedly reported though NO evidence supported it.(No such evidence exists.) Pro-life advocates should be aware of this.

I hope you didn’t read that as I support some direct procured abortions. My point was even if 10,000 was the number that would make a great case for making abortion illegal. 10,000 is a significant improvement to millions.