"Life Teen is Irreformable"

[cestusdei]

Deacon Ed,

I am in a country parish and also have a convent of elderly nuns. It is a different world then a big city or suburban parish. That is why LT won’t work here. If I had 15,000 parishioners I would be hiring full time youth ministers and recruiting lay youth leaders. Lay apostles would be the key. I might tweek one of the Masses when it comes to music, but I still doubt I would do LT. Certainly I would not do any Mass that violates the liturgical law of the Church. Perhaps they will make LT more acceptable. That remains to be seen. But my own experience was negative. It simply did not attract the youth nor did it give them a solid catechetical experience. I also can only preach 7-10 minutes on Sunday. Fortunately I am a decent preacher ( hey I am a clergy convert after all lol). But I don’t see the LT model being possible throughout the church. It may well go the way of the folk Mass. If you remember that was once the wave of the future, groovy man!

 

[flick427]

Things like Life Teen are geared only toward a certain audience. It is a good thing I suppose because it does help some people…
If people want to reach out to the youth, they need to give us something with lasting power that we won’t grow out of. Maybe it is just me, but I feel like the church is talking down to me when they do that stuff, like “oh, look at the poor young guy, he doesn’t understand” we need to help him open up and talk about his feelings with others"…
I remember when I was a kid my parents would buy me the kid version of something my dad had…My father was in construction work and had lots of tools. They would buy me the plastic ones so I would not get hurt. While I appreciate the good intention…I threw the plastic ones aside after a while…I didn’t want the plastic one, I wanted the real one like my dad had…then I’d be a man just like my father…
That is basically what we need to do for the youth if this makes any sense…We need to let them be with other youth because that helps very much, but treat them more like adults as much as possible.
I never joined Life Teen or anything because it seemed “cheesy” to me. I am 25 now, but back then, that youth group attitude just didn’t appeal to me and the majority of my friends, we wanted to be men, not teenagers…

 

[RichT]

flick427:

Things like Life Teen are geared only toward a certain audience. It is a good thing I suppose because it does help some people…
If people want to reach out to the youth, they need to give us something with lasting power that we won’t grow out of. Maybe it is just me, but I feel like the church is talking down to me when they do that stuff, like “oh, look at the poor young guy, he doesn’t understand” we need to help him open up and talk about his feelings with others"…
I remember when I was a kid my parents would buy me the kid version of something my dad had…My father was in construction work and had lots of tools. They would buy me the plastic ones so I would not get hurt. While I appreciate the good intention…I threw the plastic ones aside after a while…I didn’t want the plastic one, I wanted the real one like my dad had…then I’d be a man just like my father…
That is basically what we need to do for the youth if this makes any sense…We need to let them be with other youth because that helps very much, but treat them more like adults as much as possible.
I never joined Life Teen or anything because it seemed “cheesy” to me. I am 25 now, but back then, that youth group attitude just didn’t appeal to me and the majority of my friends, we wanted to be men, not teenagers…

Well if age is any indication then I would say there a lot of adults who are wanting to be kids again. Everytime I have attended the LT mass, I have sat next to someone almost twice my 39 years of age.

 

[misericordie]

cestusdei:

I will answer as a priest who was associate at a Lifeteen parish. The article makes some excellent points that I made myself when the idea was mooted. My suggestion was to arrange one Mass with more contemporary music. In other words work with what we have. LT cannot work at most parishes which have limited resources. In my current parish we simply don’t have a band. And we risk losing them when they go to parishes that don’t do the LT thing. Next thing you know they are at the local Assembly of God church.

All that aside. It didn’t work. The teens were not really impressed. Many didn’t like it. The more active ones wanted a more traditional Mass with some Latin, but oh no we couldn’t do that.

We don’t need LT. What we need are good liturgies and preaching. We priests need to do a better job at presenting the gospel in our homilies. Jesus Christ must be the center of our preaching. Also we must be out there with the kids. I go to all the games etc. that I can. Mass must be prayed in a reverent manner. They know if the priest doesn’t believe it. We need to challenge them to live the gospel in a counter-cultural way. We need to work with parents. They can undo what we try to do at Mass and ccd. I have had parents tell their kids they don’t need confession and don’t believe in it. Hard to compete with that. Basically the whole Church needs to get on the ball. Starting with our bishops. Gimmicks will not work in the long run.

I am sure LT, in an adjusted way, has worked in some parishes and helped some kids. But I don’t see it as the future.

Why could they not have a “more traditional Mass with more latin”? After all, it is the norm according to the latest vatican Documents, contrary to the late 1960’s and 1970’s father.

 

[MOSTotusTuus]

I’m saddened by the disgust in this thread of fellow Catholics. I have taken notes throughout the posts and have some thoughts to ponder for you.

1. Lifeteen is a program, and it is up to the chruch to do with it as it wishes, it is a resource for them to use.
2. Many wish for these HS students to go to Latin Masses instead… as someone who was in HS 3 yrs ago, that would have made me leave the church faster. I couldn’t relate to anyone at my church, it was a chore, and while I loved the mass and Eucharist, it was unfair to me that my friends had “cool” things to do at their services.
3. I have never in my life been to a mass that wasn’t a mass. Was the Eucharist Celebrated? Ok, it was mass.
4. As for the other thread that talked about the horror of Breakdancing… Just a few months ago the Pope watched young men breakdancing and applauded them saying that they were using their talents to praise God.
5. He also stated at WYD 02 “you are young, your Pope is old, but know that he still fully identifies with you” At WYD were Many of the songs that are sung in Lifeteen Masses…
6. Catholic Music is AWESOME! Try Matt Maher, before you get upseat because he is the Lifeteen Musician listen to songs of his. The end and the beg. starts by … “transubstantiation heaven kisses earth, we become a living tabernacle.”
   Fr. Stan Fortuna CFR Raps… and Raps sometimes in his homilies… but he was the most respect for the Eucharist I have seen after the Pope… Rich Mullins died during his conversion process to the Catholic Faith. Listen to the Creed… How awesome is it that our creed is on contempoary Christian Radio? the means of Evangalizing in a Protestant world.

Music is a way for you to get deeper into worship. We all have a duty to pray and live and celebrate the mass Fully! What makes the mass full for you… may not make the mass full for a teen.

1. 30 yrs ago when many of you were growing up Abortion had just been leagalized. If you were before then, it wasn’t legal. We now have Abortion, Gay Marriage, School Violence and many other distractions to our youth. We should help them as much as we can.
2. I believe we should all have a happy medium in our life of worship. I love the Charasmatic movement dearly, and at the same time, adore the Tradition. I love Latin Mass on occation, and during the school year I attend a very very traditional Mass. However… I can attribute my love of my faith to Lifeteen, because without it, I am sure I wouldn’t be at Franciscan University, or attending Mass. My brother is a fallen away Catholic, and was never given a chance to know and live his faith. My parents did all they could, but it gets to a point where you can’t force your kids anylonger. We did Family Rosaries, only watched bible movies as kids, etc… I thank my parents for taking me to a church where Lifeteen was, and look forward to going back to my home parish every break.

I hope we can get past this division and realize that Neither is inherently evil, and is good. I know a founder of Lifeteen and the intentions are in the right place. They are in no way trying to jepordize the youth. in fact, I worked at Lifeteen Camp this summer and we had a kid (13yrs old) come who was raised athiest and at the end of the week got on stage and sang amazing grace. She was able to see the beauty of the church… I hope we all look with eyes of children and see as well. God bless… I in no way critisize the opposers, and look to the day we will be with eachother in Heaven.

Madonna of the Streets, Totus Tuus

 

[flick427]

I think we need to just keep the Mass and the charism apart a bit. In my humble opinion, I think Mass should be where the reverence is paramount and we are very conservative. And when we are not in Holy Mass, then that is the time when we can sing the worship songs and be more charismatic. Mass is the way it is for a reason…whe God layed down the “rules” in Leviticus, He was telling how He wished to be worshipped…it is very detailed and DEMANDS reverence…God did not say to just cater it to our own personality.
Why is this important?..UNITY IN THE CHURCH…we should all worship at Mass the same, with the utmost reverence to God, even if we are a teen. Mass is our time to pray to God as he willed us to do. God is the one we are supposed to love above ALL things…that is why we should worship Him at Mass the way He wills it to be. Would you deny your bride or groom what they ask for on their wedding day so you can cater to you own ways? NO, we should give of ourselves and make it so it is not about our own feelings…it needs to be all about the other person…when God increases, and we decrease.
Then, when Mass is over, we can feel free to celebrate and worship in ways that throw our own personaly style in into things. Just like how the Psalms are…they are peoples personal prayers and songs to the Lord. We do so much stuff our own way during our week, whether we go to church 1 or 7 times, spend those hours at Mass with you hearts on what God deserves, not what we feel like doing.

 

[Exalt]

In response to the article:

I think this movement is profoundly and fundamentally flawed because it does two things. First, it separates young persons at the most decisive stage of their lives from their families. Second, it panders to the teenager’s inclination to live in a mentality of entertainment.

The rest of the article goes into greater detail about the nature of teenagers and their relationships with thier parents, and how excessive entertainment is spiritually deadly. I will address each of the two points in order.

“…[LifeTeen] separates young persons at the most decisive stage of their lives from their families…”

When teens enter the high school years, they begin to truly understand what it means to have one own’s beliefs and values. They understand that their parents, primarily, have been the major influence of those beliefs. Many come to see their parents as seperating themselves from the Truth, as if their parents were forcing their beliefs on them.

Teens need to feel a distinct ownership of their faith. They need to be able to answer the question “Why are you Catholic?” with great clarity and satisfaction. When they were children, the answer would be “because my parents are catholic.” When they become teenagers, they realize that this is not a adequate answer. Sometimes they choose not to answer the question at all. Sometimes they say “I’m not catholic.” However, they should answer as adults should answer: “I am Catholic because Catholicism contains the fullness of Truth; because Jesus established the Catholic Church; because of the Eucharist; because of Mary and the Saints; because I want to submit to God fully and that includes being a part of His Church”

So how does this relate to parents? Well, we still understand that parents are the primary educators of our teens. We understand that, no matter what teens want to think, parents are the primary influence. However, teens need to discover their faith on thier own, away from thier parents. Teens just can’t talk about certain issues with thier parents. They need catholic friendships. They need other adults that they can trust. They need to meet Christ in a profound way without thier parents being present.

Some have said that teens sitting with other teens during mass is not right. I disagree. Having catholic friendship experiances in the setting of the mass is wonderfully encouraging. Teens wanting to go to mass with their friends instead of going to the mall with their friends?! Amazing! It’s not just a social occasion for these teens - it’s a spiritual experiance. It’s about meeting God, as a community, in his very body and soul.

Furthermore, at LifeNights: Rule number one in youth ministry is that when deep small group discussions are going on parents are not to be listening in. Teens need feel comfortable and know that what they say will not leave that small group.

 

[Exalt]

“…Second, [LifeTeen] panders to the teenager’s inclination to live in a mentality of entertainment…”

To address this statement, a clear understanding of the mission of Youth Ministry must be made plain. Youth Ministry must address the (1) Spiritual, (2) Social, and (3) Catechetical needs of the youth.

(1) Teens need to feel connected with God. They need to have prayer experiances and a moment of deep, life-changing conversion. They need to live a life of intimacy with God. That includes chastity and charity and fidelity to God’s commands. In short, they need to develop an intimate, personal relationship with Christ.

(2) Teens need to develop good catholic friendships. They need to be able to trust thier youth ministers.

(3) Teens need to back up these catholic friendships and spirituality with profound knowledge. That is, the core of the faith. The teachings of Christ. Everything from Objective Truth to Transubstantiation to the Immaculate Conception.

How does this translate into programming? Christ has given us the ultimate sacrament in the mass. This is a great opportunity for Spiritual and Catechetical growth in teenagers. However, to grow spiritually from the Eucharist one must know that Christ is there. Furthermore, the Church has always known that music is a great tool for spiritual renewal. We have found that teens love to sing and are greatly moved when singing in prayer together. We have found that the model spiritual, scriptural, and singable has worked nicely. We have many songs that tend to bring about this spiritual movement in our teens - songs like “Shout to the Lord” and even “On Eagles Wings.” We also find that light guitar and very light drums supplemented with piano works wonderfully. However, the biggest difference between the LT mass and other masses is how the moment you step out of your car to the moment you leave people are greeting you and getting to know you.

We have also found that Sunday nights are the ideal time for weekly youth meetings - LifeNights, as we call them. It’s a great time for building catholic friendships as well as catechesis and faith discussion!

As far as these events being mere entertainment… It’s not. It’s building the spiritual life of teenagers. Making them feel loved and inviting them into a relationship with Christ.

Ha… I used to BE in Lifeteen… I realized after some time that it was not Catholic, and around that time frame, a friend of mine introduced me to the Latin Mass… enough said.

*You hit the nail right on the head, friend! LifeTeen is not *Catholic!! **Amen!

---

This actually brought tears to my eyes. Anyhow, this is completely erroneous. In fact, it’s quite hurtful. Be a little careful with your words. What makes something catholic? Is it pipe organs and a cantor? Latin? No emotions? I have a better answer: being Catholic means total submission to God. It means answering his call to evangelization and to learning his Truth. It means never-ending spiritual growth. It means being faithful to his Word and staying away from sin and embracing chastity and charity. It means meeting God on a regular basis through his sacraments - including the Eucharist. LifeTeen encourages all of this. LifeTeen seeks to bring teens to meeting Jesus in the Sacraments, in his teachings, and in his call to total submission. That is catholic indeed.

 

[MaryChelan]

baltobetsy:

Now you’ve lost all your credibility.

Betsy

Oh, really? If you would have been at the LifeTeen “Masses” I have been to you would know *exactly *what I mean.

I am not seeking to appear credible to you and I ask you to refrain from judging me for expressing what I have experienced and seen. Your comment here is just plain rude.

 

[MaryChelan]

flick427:

I think we need to just keep the Mass and the charism apart a bit. In my humble opinion, I think Mass should be where the reverence is paramount and we are very conservative. And when we are not in Holy Mass, then that is the time when we can sing the worship songs and be more charismatic. Mass is the way it is for a reason…whe God layed down the “rules” in Leviticus, He was telling how He wished to be worshipped…it is very detailed and DEMANDS reverence…God did not say to just cater it to our own personality.
Why is this important?..UNITY IN THE CHURCH…we should all worship at Mass the same, with the utmost reverence to God, even if we are a teen. Mass is our time to pray to God as he willed us to do. God is the one we are supposed to love above ALL things…that is why we should worship Him at Mass the way He wills it to be. Would you deny your bride or groom what they ask for on their wedding day so you can cater to you own ways? NO, we should give of ourselves and make it so it is not about our own feelings…it needs to be all about the other person…when God increases, and we decrease.
Then, when Mass is over, we can feel free to celebrate and worship in ways that throw our own personaly style in into things. Just like how the Psalms are…they are peoples personal prayers and songs to the Lord. We do so much stuff our own way during our week, whether we go to church 1 or 7 times, spend those hours at Mass with you hearts on what God deserves, not what we feel like doing.

Right on! and thank you!

 

[MaryChelan]

RichT:

This proves my point. The masses I have been to do have the procession of the cross, along with every other piece of the liturgy that a sunday morning mass has. You along with the author are basing your opinions off very limited information. Also, you earlier stated the life teen mass was not catholic, now you state is not really very catholic. Is it or isn’t it?

Rich, you do not know how many times the author or I have attended LifeTeen “Masses,” so you really don’t know if we are basing our opinions on very limited information or not, so please don’t pretend like you know. To me, the LifeTeen “Mass” is not one bit Catholic. I said that all along.

I never said the mass was for anybody, I simply said that because of the life teen mass, there are many teenagers involved in a church function that otherwise wouldn’t be.

Again, how can you make this statement that there are many teenagers involved in a church function that otherwise wouldn’t be–how do you know that for a fact?? You don’t! No one does, unless one interviewed every single teen that was present. You don’t know where they would be or not be.

That’s to bad. I would encourage anyone who has had a bad experience to travel around to other parishes and see what they do at their life teen mass before you condemn the life teen movement. These abuses accur in life teen mases as well as regular masses, however, they don’t occur in all of them. So, don’t let a few rotten ones spoil the bunch so to speak.

I have no desire whatsoever to attend a LifeTeen “Mass” ever again because to me it is an abomination. You continue to say abuses occur in LifeTeen “Masses” as well in regular Masses–again that is no excuse for LifeTeen to commit these abuses! I never see abuses in the Masses at my parish, or in any of the other parishes I have attended in my life. Liturgical abuses are not as widespread as you seem to think, at least not in my diocese. So this is why the abuses I witnessed in LifeTeen stood out so boldly and so baldly. It is simply appalling, and the abuses were not small mistakes, mind you. From start to finish, it is one abuse after another, over and over and over again.

 

[MaryChelan]

RichT:

What is with you people and feeling and emotions? God forbid I should feel something like a rediculous emotion at church. I have bad news for you, we all experience emotions at mass. Have you ever been moved to tears during the consecration? Have you ever actually FELT unworthy? I have, and from what your saying it sounds like that is wrong. Is that how you see it?

It appears that your emotions and feelings are quite invested in this topic of LifeTeen, Rich, and it is showing in your posts. I believe Misericordie’s comments about my post were positive, in that she/he saw my post as measured, as opposed to reactive. That is not a negative thing, and she/he was not making any comment about having emotion in Mass or about having tears during the Consecration. She/he was not in any way saying that having emotions during Mass was “wrong.” Nothing of the kind. Her/his comments were directed to my post and they were appreciated by me. It is too bad you have become so emotionally invested in this topic that you failed to see this. As for me, well, I’ve had enough of all this LifeTeen mess! Done. :yawn:

 

[baltobetsy]

MaryChelan:

Oh, really? If you would have been at the LifeTeen “Masses” I have been to you would know *exactly *what I mean.

I am not seeking to appear credible to you and I ask you to refrain from judging me for expressing what I have experienced and seen. Your comment here is just plain rude.

The LifeTeen Masses you have been to may not have been to your liking, may have been rife with abuses, may have been irreverent, or whatever other negative description you may wish to ascribe to them, but they were still Masses. Perhaps you don’t feel as if you’ve been to Mass after attending one. But when you start with a hyperbolic statement that it is NOT Mass, all the rest of your opinions, to which you have a perfect right, and which you have a perfect right to express, become suspect. If you want to be persuasive, you must first be credible.

Betsy

 

[system]

Exalt:

Teens need to feel connected with God.

This is not a special thing for teens. Everyone needs this. Why pretend that teens have a “special” need for this?

and a moment of deep, life-changing conversion.

Sorry, but that sounds awfully (for lack of a better word) Protestant. This so-called need for “conversion” seems to be something that prominent converts like Scott Hahn have brought along with them. I don’t believe it is a true Catholic concept. Slow and steady wins the race.

We have found that teens love to sing and are greatly moved when singing in prayer together.

Wow, is that an overgeneralization. The teens I grew up with (good Catholics, mind you) hated to sing. The truth is obviously somewhere in between. Some like to sing, some don’t.

However, the biggest difference between the LT mass and other masses is how the moment you step out of your car to the moment you leave people are greeting you and getting to know you.

Which would strike me as artificial and phony from beginning to end. I do not go to Mass for “meet-n-greet”.

 

[Exalt]

tcj:

me:

Teens need to feel connected with God.

This is not a special thing for teens. Everyone needs this. Why pretend that teens have a “special” need for this?

Of course, you’re right, this is not a need unique to teenagers. However, teenagers are beginning to come into that age where they can feel this (in a way much different than when they were children) for the first times in thier life. I try and foster these experiances in youth because we youth are the ones I serve! I definately support ministries for those of all ages.

and a moment of deep, life-changing conversion.

Sorry, but that sounds awfully (for lack of a better word) Protestant. This so-called need for “conversion” seems to be something that prominent converts like Scott Hahn have brought along with them. I don’t believe it is a true Catholic concept. Slow and steady wins the race.

What is a conversion? In short, conversion is the change from a state of sin to a state of grace. There is the big sense, that is, changing from the state of original sin (that we were born with) to the state of life in Christ and His Church. This is baptism. However, in the smaller sense, conversion means the daily changing of one’s life to Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic Church invites us to experiance the Eucharist as a type of daily conversion, for example. (CCC# 1436) There also exists times where we commit mortal sins and fall away from the grace of Christ. We require the sacrament of penance to bring us to a state of grace. So, you see, the idea of conversion is very Catholic indeed.

When I said “a moment of life-changing conversion,” I was specifically referring to those moments, usually at weekend retreats, where teens begin to examine thier lives from the eyes of Christ for the first time. They realize their faults and experiance a true sense of penance for thier sin. Then they go to confession, usually for the first time in thier life. Oftentimes, the experiance is extremely deep and life-changing.

http://www.phatmass.com/downloads/buddy_icons/confessionicon.gif

We have found that teens love to sing and are greatly moved when singing in prayer together.

Wow, is that an overgeneralization. The teens I grew up with (good Catholics, mind you) hated to sing. The truth is obviously somewhere in between. Some like to sing, some don’t.

Well, it is certainly a generalization. We have found that most teens like to sing. We have also found that almost all teens get alot out of the (1) song selection, (2) the fact that most of the congregation sings together prayerfully and reverently, and (3) the attitude that group song is group prayer, not entertainment - and has tenfold the energy, power, and spirituality of “secular” song.

 

[Exalt]

However, the biggest difference between the LT mass and other masses is how the moment you step out of your car to the moment you leave people are greeting you and getting to know you.

Which would strike me as artificial and phony from beginning to end. I do not go to Mass for “meet-n-greet”.

Let me explain. When you enter our church, I am usually standing at the door looking out for new faces, along with the other Core members (they are adult volunteers that help out with the LT program).

I see you walking towards the enterance, and I walk towards you and say “Hi, are you new to this mass?” or something to that effect, and something along the lines of “I’m *****, what’s your name?” and then “Well, TCJ, I’m so glad that you decided to come to this mass. It’s a little different than the other masses. Here’s a song sheet that has all the songs on it that we’ll be singing. We also have a warm-up practice time before mass where we go over the songs we’ll be singing during mass this evening. If you’d like some quiet time, the Mother’s Chapel doesn’t have the speakers turned on until mass begins. However, 5 minutes before mass starts, we have a period of reverent silence and reflective prayer in the entire church. But, of course, this is all just icing on the cake, for we are all here to serve and love our God, and recieve his Body and Blood. Oh, and one other thing, if you’d like to go to confession, I can escort you to the sacristy where father is happy to hear any confessions as he gets ready for mass.”

If you were a youth, I’d also add something along the lines of “we also have what we call a LifeNight after mass, in the family center across the parking lot. It’s a great time for prayer and small group discussion, and also some fun too. Come and try it out.”

I’d also like to add that I really truly care about those who come to our mass. I want you to be in the best place to experiance the mass, and that means (1) making sure you know about the songs and the jist of how this mass is slightly different, and (2) making sure that you know confession is available if you need it. While you may not like the music practice before mass, for instance, you must know that our intentions are not to alienate you, but to make you feel as best as possible to experiance the mass.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

tcj:

This is not a special thing for teens. Everyone needs this. Why pretend that teens have a “special” need for this?Sorry, but that sounds awfully (for lack of a better word) Protestant. This so-called need for “conversion” seems to be something that prominent converts like Scott Hahn have brought along with them. I don’t believe it is a true Catholic concept.

Hmmm…perhaps you should read Scripture a bit more – St. Paul calls us constantly to conversion (metanoia in Greek) which is usually translated as “repentance.” Protestants got it from us Catholics.
tcj:

Which would strike me as artificial and phony from beginning to end. I do not go to Mass for “meet-n-greet”.

Hmmm, are you not aware that we gather as the Body of Christ to celebrate Mass? how can you be a part of the community (meaning “with union”) if you don’t “meet and greet?”

Deacon Ed

 

[Mandi]

Ellen Marie:

This seems to be a rather broad generalization. You have mentioned this several times, yet none of your posts are specific as to how these Masses are not Holy. .

This is Holy -

“Wash me yet more from my iniquities, O my God, and cleanse me from my sins. Grant that the blood and water, which flowed from the wounded Heart of my Saviour, may be efficaciously applied to me and to all poor sinners. By the merits of Thy precious death, give me Thy grace, which shall transform me from a sinner into a Saint.”

Holy needs no explanation. When you are in the presence of Holy you are completely and totally aware. Your senses are heighten to the point of acute. Even an atheist can not deny it. They don’t believe but they are overcome anyway.

Even Hollywood has figured out Holy - anytime they want to get the feeling of Holy accross to the audience, you will find flashes of pictures of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or Saints deep in prayer and meditation - soft lofty sacred music. If Hollywood, full of pagans can figure out what Holy is - I think it’s definiately time that The Catholic Church got back to where it belongs.

Do not kid yourselves any longer (we all know what Holy is) if you’re not sitting in it…ask yourself why?

 

[Mandi]

baltobetsy:

The LifeTeen Masses you have been to may not have been to your liking, may have been rife with abuses, may have been irreverent, or whatever other negative description you may wish to ascribe to them, but they were still Masses.

"Behold Jesus crucified! Behold His wounds, received for love of you! His whole appearance betokens love: His head is bent to kiss you; His arms are extended to embrace you; His Heart is open to receive you. O superabundance of love, Jesus, the Son of God, dies upon the cross, that man may live and be delivered from everlasting death!

Is this how I repay my Jesus with abusive, irreverent Masses? Must my beloved Jesus by bruised, derided, cursed, defiled by those who claim to love Him?

 

[MaryChelan]

baltobetsy:

The LifeTeen Masses you have been to may not have been to your liking, may have been rife with abuses, may have been irreverent, or whatever other negative description you may wish to ascribe to them, but they were still Masses. Perhaps you don’t feel as if you’ve been to Mass after attending one. But when you start with a hyperbolic statement that it is NOT Mass, all the rest of your opinions, to which you have a perfect right, and which you have a perfect right to express, become suspect. If you want to be persuasive, you must first be credible.

Betsy

Whatever. Whether they are still Masses is actually questionable. And I did not *start *with a hyperbolic statement! You would know that if you read the rest of my posts. Anyone following them would realize that my views are *not *suspect, given the rest of my premises. Plus, I am not trying to be persuasive! I’m not trying to persuade anyone of anything on here. People are going to think whatever they want to think whether or not someone is persuasive or not. For example: I find your posts arrogant and judgemental and completely suspect because of their arrogance. I don’t care how you make an argument at this point; the way you have shown yourself to me on your posts is arrogant and unfounded so now whatever you have to say will be ignored by this writer.