"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

[PreVatII]

Servus Pio XII:

Well, in my school we had a Mass, if you can call it as such, set to rock music. They had bloody amplifiers in the gym and an ELECTRIC GUITAR at Mass! I must say it was the only time I have actually cried in a Mass (stations of the cross is an entirely different thing). I cried for the Church, I cried for the Tradition, and I cried for the teenagers being mislead to believe that the Church should adapt to the age.

I can now speak from experience that such Masses are irreverent, dissolute, and bordering on apostate.

Servus Pio XII,
If you are the future of Holy Mother Church, then there is hope for our post-Vatican II youth! God bless you.

As to sacred music: I am a huge fan of Hendrix, Cream, Van Halen, Aerosmith, et al. But NEVER during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In fact, I can not think of one single song (they are not hymns by any means) that has been written since Vatican II that can hold a candle to Faith of our Fathers, Panis Angelicus, Regina Coeli, Hail Redeemer King Divine, Holy God we praise Thy Name, Lady of Knock and Ave Maria (Bach) to name but a few.

Our children will respond to sacred music and the beauty and majesty of Tradition if they are exposed to it. If the Mass is “dumbed down” they will leave…and for good.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Dr. Bombay:

I meant “profane” in the sense of “Nonreligious in subject matter, form, or use; secular” not “Vulgar; coarse.” There’s secular music and then there’s religious music. I don’t think secular music has a place in Church. Is Peter, Paul and Mary’s “Leaving on a Jet Plane” appropriate as the recessional hymn on the Feast of the Ascension? Methinks not. :nope:

I can’t say it better than ncjohn. His post is worded very well. The music that is played at the Life Teen Mass that I attend is very reverent and worshipful. It does not come from the secular world. It is Scripture based music that is written by people who deeply love Christ and have been blessed with a gift for writing sacred music.

Scripture clearly says, over and over, to sing a NEW song to the Lord. Of course, it doesn’t say to sing ONLY new songs, but it God clearly has given us gifts of writing music, so that we can use it to glorify Him.

If we use only ancient music to glorify Him, then what are we to do with the talents that He has given us today for writing music? Should we use it only for secular purposes? Of course not. We should use it to do exactly what He has told us to do: Sing a new song to Him.

 

[Louis_IX]

If the Mass is a re presentation of Calvary, can you picture a Rock Band there at the foot of the Cross ?

 

[Michael_Welter]

Louis IX:

If the Mass is a re presentation of Calvary, can you picture a Rock Band there at the foot of the Cross ?

Yes, just as much as I can picture an organ.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

Dr. Bombay,

I’ve read many of your posts over time now and you seem to be well versed in tradition and Church history and I have learned much from that. Every once in a while though you get into illogical presentations that damage your credibility.

It is quite clear that you do not like any “non-traditional” music in the Mass. That is certainly your right and I respect that. Dictating it to be “unacceptable” however is truly unfair however; beyond that, there is a condescending tone present here that implies that people who don’t have a problem with something beyond Gregorian Chant are somehow just misguided and “liberal,” which becomes downright uncharitable and judgmental.

Throwing up straw men like “Money” and “Leaving on a Jet Plane” are irrelevant and misleading. Nobody that I know of here is proposing any such things. The music I am talking about–and I think Michale would agree although I will not presume to speak for him–is very reverent and scripture-based in its content. While you may not like its presentation, others are very deeply moved by it. That is a personal thing as people have always been drawn to different musical styles. To color someone else’s prayer offering to God as unacceptable or inadequate–or to claim it to be “apostacy” as the OP has done–is to set oneself up as the Pharisee standing off praying “Thank you Lord for not making me like those other sinners.”

I don’t find it unexpected from the OP, who at the ripe old age of 14 doesn’t have the life experience or knowledge yet to know better, but I personally find that disappointing from one whose knowledge I respect. I would pray that you might re-examine this and give some lattitude in judging other’s ways of communicating with our God. Having made each of us as an individual in His image, I tend to think He’s able to discern their devotion and communicate with them on an individual basis.

Peace be with you all,

John, thank you for your kind words. I am not trying to be uncharitable. And, in fact, I rather like some of the newer church music produced in the past 40 years. “Gift of Finest Wheat” is one and “On Eagle’s Wings” is another that I enjoy hearing when presented reverently. There are others that I can’t remember of the top of my head but I certainly don’t want to limit Catholic hymns to those strictly before the Council. That’s why I find the Adoremus hymnal a little too thin. If every Church in America had a St. Michael hymnal, for instance, in the pews that would be wonderful. It has a nice mix of traditional and contemporary hymns without most of the tuneless, syrupy dreck of both eras. Yes, there were bad songs pre-Vatican II as well. Unfortunately, it seems most parishes go to one extreme or the other, excluding anything contemporary or excluding anything traditional. There has to be a middle ground.

As to the current topic, I find this forced integration of rock music into Mass to be misguided at best. First, the term “rock n roll” is a euphemism for the sex act and I’m not talking about the marital bed. I mean fornication. Does a musical style named after a mortal sin belong in church? Yes, the Church has sacralized many things thru the centuries. But, to go back to my earlier point, there is the profane (secular) and the sacred. There’s nothing sinful about listening to rock music, just as there’s nothing sinful about watching an NFL game. But do you want a big screen tv set up in the middle of the sanctuary to watch the local team? No. A place for everything and everything in its place. People are perfectly capable of producing reverent, worshipful songs in a rock style. That’s fine. The question is, is it appropriate for Mass?

Second, this seems to be an attempt by some to make the Mass “relevant” to young people. To again go back to an earlier point, proper catechesis is what will make Mass relevant. If teenagers have no concept of the true miracle that takes place at every Mass, the music is just ear candy.

There’s an interesting series of articles here on the Pope’s view of liturgical music.

Cardinal Ratzinger insists that the faith must not be trivialized in the name of inculturating it. Today we do not have to limit church music so strictly to chanting of the psalms, because we have “an infinitely larger trove” of good liturgical music to draw on. But to hold the line against the onslaught of misguided attempts to import “modern” musical forms into the liturgy requires “the courage of asceticism, the courage to contradict. Only from such courage can new creativity arise”

I suppose the debate will continue for quite some time. But that’s how I see it. :tiphat:

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Michael Welter:

I can’t say it better than ncjohn. His post is worded very well. The music that is played at the Life Teen Mass that I attend is very reverent and worshipful. It does not come from the secular world. It is Scripture based music that is written by people who deeply love Christ and have been blessed with a gift for writing sacred music.

Scripture clearly says, over and over, to sing a NEW song to the Lord. Of course, it doesn’t say to sing ONLY new songs, but it God clearly has given us gifts of writing music, so that we can use it to glorify Him.

If we use only ancient music to glorify Him, then what are we to do with the talents that He has given us today for writing music? Should we use it only for secular purposes? Of course not. We should use it to do exactly what He has told us to do: Sing a new song to Him.

I understand that, Michael. Of course people can write reverent, worshipful songs in any style and will until the Day of Judgement. But not every one is appropriate for Mass. That’s my only point.

I could create a moving, reverent song for kazoo. Would that be proper for Mass?

 

[Michael_Welter]

Dr. Bombay:

I understand that, Michael. Of course people can write reverent, worshipful songs in any style and will until the Day of Judgement. But not every one is appropriate for Mass. That’s my only point.

And on that point, I wholeheartedly agree. In our Church, we have a Life Teen Mass, and the music is lead by a group of very skilled musicians, including acoustic and electric guitars, bass guitar, drums and keyboard. I’m not sure I would call their style “rock & roll”. We call it contemporary praise & worship. It IS beautiful, inspired, scriptural, and reverent. It moves me, and draws me into worship. We also have a traditional choir Mass. A “folk” Mass. a TLM, and several spanish Masses. There’s something for everyone.

I agree that there are Christians songs of every style that I don’t consider appropriate for Mass, but that’s just my opinion. I don’t think “On Eagles Wings” is appropriate for Mass, but only because I don’t like that song. It has a boring melody.

Our old pastor used to say that all songs must follow the 3 Ss. They must be Scriptural, Simple, and Singable. We follow those rules always. As a musician, I also insist that, for the most part, songs used during Mass should be sung TO God. There are good songs with lyrics about God, or from God. And they are OK, but most of the songs should use lyrics that are TO God.

 

[JDeL]

Michael and others:

I strongly suggest you look into a series of tapes by Fr. Basil Nortz, called, “Music and Morality”.

I was once very much into rock/alternative/hip-hop. I thought I was even being diverse in what I listened to!! Then I listened to these tapes and reevaluated what I listened to entirely.

As Dr. Bombay suggested rock and all its manifestations are a language of rebellion, revolt, and licentiousness. Like jazz, the name refers to the the sex act, and not exactly in a procreative and unitive way.

While I support Christian lyrics, putting Christian lyrics with a sycopated beat is at best a dichotomy and at worst a scandal. The words and the music are at odds with each other and thus the reverent is disordered. I have witnessed a Life-teen Mass, and thankfully our parished stopped the practice. I truly felt saddened and sorry for the worshippers(many adults and ever elderly) who were scandalized in such a way.

While I detest any popular music(any of the rock genres where the rhythm is the ruling part of the music) anyway(because it has all sold out), I believe we should do everything possible to return litugical music to Gregorian Chant and plain chant. Unfortunately, many people go to Mass to feel good and when the music addresses the body and its passions, like rock does, we lose the focus of worship, worshipping and loving God with the whole heart and soul.

In the words of Fr. Nortz, “the electric guitar is the single most blasphemous device” the world has known.

His tapes changed my life, and I pray that you allow them to change yours, too.

JD

 

[Michael_Welter]

JDeL:

Michael and others:

I strongly suggest you look into a series of tapes by Fr. Basil Nortz, called, “Music and Morality”.

If someone were to send me a copy, I would be glad to listen.

JDeL:

As Dr. Bombay suggested rock and all its manifestations are a language of rebellion, revolt, and licentiousness. Like jazz, the name refers to the the sex act, and not exactly in a procreative and unitive way.

Hmmm . . . sounds like something Dan Brown would come up with. Sorry, I just don’t buy it.

JDeL:

While I detest any popular music(any of the rock genres where the rhythm is the ruling part of the music) anyway(because it has all sold out), I believe we should do everything possible to return litugical music to Gregorian Chant and plain chant.

The Apostles didn’t have Gregorian chant in their Mass. Most likely, they used music styled after the music of their culture. God tells us over and over again to sing a NEW song to Him. That’s what I try to do. I love God deeply and worship Him in a style that meets my needs. No two people are exactly alike. Our Church is big enough for all people, and their needs. I grew up with Gregorian chant, and I don’t find it worshipful at all.

 

[ncjohn]

Dr. Bombay:

Unfortunately, it seems most parishes go to one extreme or the other, excluding anything contemporary or excluding anything traditional. There has to be a middle ground.

I totally agree. I think that is where the danger of our imposing our personal preferences lies. You readily acknowledge here that you can see good songs in both contemporary and traditional genres, as do I. I see much of the Life Teen music in the same way–there are songs I like and songs I don’t. In most cases, it’s not because of the content, but for the simple reason that some songs speak to me more than others.

As to the current topic, I find this forced integration of rock music into Mass to be misguided at best. First, the term “rock n roll” is a euphemism for the sex act and I’m not talking about the marital bed. The question is, is it appropriate for Mass?

Michael has expressed my view on this very well. This is not rock and roll. It is glory and praise music–the prayer of the composer–played by modern instruments. Is it the content or the instruments you are objecting to? If I play *Ave Maria * on a synthesizer or *Holy God We Praise Thy Name * with electric guitar and drums does that make them inappropriate?

Second, this seems to be an attempt by some to make the Mass “relevant” to young people. To again go back to an earlier point, proper catechesis is what will make Mass relevant. If teenagers have no concept of the true miracle that takes place at every Mass, the music is just ear candy.

I don’t disagree that catechesis is important. Even more important to them coming to this realization, IMHO, is having priests and catechists who are teaching the overwhelming love of God as the vehicle to draw love and obedience back to God, rather than what I see as the ever-growing return to fear-based blind obedience which will cause them to flee at the first opportunity. That’s a whole separate topic though and goes way off thread.

Quite frankly though, the kids I see at Life Teen are having experiences I never would have imagined at their ages. I believe the ones that are having those are well-catechized for the most part, and that those who may not be are being drawn to find out more and experience more of this love of God. What the community does to follow up on that, the catechesis, I agree is critical. But that is really no different than getting people “pumped” during RCIA or confirmation classes and then leaving them out in the cold after the ceremony. It ends up being no different than a protestant “altar call” with no lasting effect.

Finally, no amount of catechesis is going to affect the musical style you are drawn to and that speaks to you. I happen to have varied musical tastes, from classical to Led Zeppelin to Barbra Streisand and limited Country and Western. In spite of that, I’d rather be hit with a bat than listen to any of the “traditional” hymns I was exposed to growing up. I might put up with one mixed in somewhere, but if you give me a Mass with nothing but that, I’ll be out the door in a second. We tend to identify with the musical style of our culture, and I have no problem with my kids or my grandchildren identifying with contemporary praise and worship music.

I appreciate your comments, and the fact that they’ve helped me crystallize my own. You’re right that the debate will continue, but I hope that we can make appropriate vehicles available for each segment of our diverse Catholic community and not need to judge those to whom they speak.

Peace,

 

[tom.wineman]

It’s a Holy Ghost party. Featuring "Southern gospel on steroids."

** Still some parishes seem to be using this Protestant type service as a model.**

---

tampatrib.com/baylifenews/MGBJXEY8IDE.html

 

[migurl]

Why do we have to change the Mass? I mean, we clarify things, we fix heresy etc. but the mass should not have to change. The Church should not have to change the music to get teens to come to mass. If teens are coming to mass because the music is “cooler” and they can clap their hands etc then they are going for the wrong reason. As someone else said in another post about LT masses, God and the Church do not change for us, WE change for God. It is true that we should be able to love and worship God no matter where we are and what is going on, so if that is true, then the church should NOT change from traditional music and GC to Christian Rock just to appeal to younger people. THere is a difference between simplifying the gospels and the readings for young children and CCD classes so that they can understand, and changing things in the mass just so teens will feel that mass is “cool” enough to go to. Mass isn’t “cool”, it is a sacred time and something to be respected, not tinkered with as if it were some marketing ploy. God sells himself.

 

[Legatus]

Michael Welter:

And modern rock music is based on polyphonic music styles that have been around for centuries. So it’s not new either. It is, however, a new way of presenting it, just like Gregorian Chant may have been a new way of presenting ancient Jewish music.

Music is profane because of the words, not the musical style. Personally, I find that music can includes drums and electric guitar and be done very reverently and worshipful. In fact, it draws me into worship far more than Gregorian Chant or traditional choir music.

Sorry but there are a number of Motu Proprios from Rome that disagree with you regarding music being profane only because of the words. In the liturgy the word “profane” has a different meaning than in secular use. It is not necessarily a perjorative but simply means not sacred.

But that said, the words ARE important as well and any Christian Rock I have heard is pretty vapid. So for that matter is most of the music composed for the Mass since Vatican II and that leads to the question of why, given a convulsive reform of the Liturgy that was supposed to bring the younger generation pouring into the Churches, is it necessary to resort to these Teen Masses. It wasn’t necessary before the Mass was changed. Get ready to hear more from Pope Benedict on the subject of the music and the liturgy as a whole.

 

[Michael_Welter]

migurl:

Why do we have to change the Mass? I mean, we clarify things, we fix heresy etc. but the mass should not have to change. The Church should not have to change the music to get teens to come to mass.

Just to clarify, adding organ and gregorian chant to the Mass was also a change. Neither of those were included in the Mass, as said by the Apostles. Keeping up with the needs of a changing society is not a bad thing. God doesn’t change, but people do.

 

[migurl]

Yeah, but I doubt they added that stuff to make the mass more popular. People should respect the Presence of Christ, not try to sell it like some kind of clothing line.

 

[JDeL]

“Finally, no amount of catechesis is going to affect the musical style you are drawn to and that speaks to you. I happen to have varied musical tastes, from classical to Led Zeppelin to Barbra Streisand and limited Country and Western. In spite of that, I’d rather be hit with a bat than listen to any of the “traditional” hymns I was exposed to growing up. I might put up with one mixed in somewhere, but if you give me a Mass with nothing but that, I’ll be out the door in a second. We tend to identify with the musical style of our culture, and I have no problem with my kids or my grandchildren identifying with contemporary praise and worship music.”

John,

I agree with your first statement in that we are all “drawn” to a specific type of music(noise in my case), but that does not mean that we ever have to listen to it(let alone want to hear it at Mass). Specific types of rock and rap were addictive to me for years, but I have eradicated them from my life because the pulsating rhythms speak only to the body, actually they cuss at the body, desecrating it and dehumanizing it.

I really do not want to “experience” this anytime, let alone at Mass. We should desire our spirit/soul to be communicated wiith at Mass. Teens are only misled and scandalized by music that speaks prediominantly to their bodies.

To say that no amount of catechesis will alter musical tastes away from the body amd toward the soul is really selling young people short. It is like saying that you are going to sell out to lust and fornication anyway, so here is how to protect yourself(and tarnish your soul in the process). I have higher expectations for the young people I work with.

Have a blessed day,
JD

 

[ncjohn]

JDeL:

John,

I agree with your first statement in that we are all “drawn” to a specific type of music(noise in my case), but that does not mean that we ever have to listen to it(let alone want to hear it at Mass). Specific types of rock and rap were addictive to me for years, but I have eradicated them from my life because the pulsating rhythms speak only to the body, actually they cuss at the body, desecrating it and dehumanizing it.

I really do not want to “experience” this anytime, let alone at Mass. We should desire our spirit/soul to be communicated wiith at Mass. Teens are only misled and scandalized by music that speaks prediominantly to their bodies.

To say that no amount of catechesis will alter musical tastes away from the body amd toward the soul is really selling young people short. It is like saying that you are going to sell out to lust and fornication anyway, so here is how to protect yourself(and tarnish your soul in the process). I have higher expectations for the young people I work with.

Have a blessed day,
JD

I appreciate your comments JD and commend you for being able to, as the Bible suggests, “pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin.” There are not many who are willing to take those kinds of steps. :clapping:

I have to disagree with you though as to whether the music we are addressing here is sinful in any way for most people. There are many things in the world that are not sinful in themselves, and that may actually be useful to the majority of people while at the same time causing others serious difficulties. An obvious example might be National Geographic magazine. For the vast majority of people interested in its subject matter, it is informative and educational. I know adults however who still get “excited” by the occasional picture of a partially naked native and for whom the magazine would best be avoided.

I personally think you might be selling our youth short in projecting your experience with a certain musical style on to others. I have been present at many occasions when contemporary Christian music was used, both within the Mass and on youth retreats, and I have to say sincerely and honestly that I have never found what you have apparently experienced to be true. Just the opposite, I have found youth enraptured with a love of God that I could only hope to duplicate myself. I don’t see this as giving in or “selling out” in any way.

I also have to say that while I can understand that it might give you problems personally, you have essentially characterized this as some kind of inherently evil music, and in doing so almost (or maybe intentionally) imply that those whose form of praise to God is in creating the music are basically instruments of the devil. Again, I find the opposite to be true, and would hope that you might be able to reconsider whether you are in a position to judge someone’s intent that way.

As I’ve said previously, it is not for everyone and those who are drawn to something else should do something else. I don’t think it’s right or fair though to deny this to those for whom God communicates himself differently than he does for us. If it bothers you personally, by all means stay away, just as I will stay away from Latin Masses; let’s give ourselves room though to let God be God and acknowledge that he’s big enough to do it in different ways for different people.

Peace,

 

[Paul_W]

Why do you advocate Mass in Latin? If your goal is authenticity, shouldn’t you advocate Mass in Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic? Shouldn’t we oppose not only rock music, but all music written in the past 1,900 (or so) years? I’m pretty sure none of the apostles ever used organ music at Mass.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Latin = Language of the Church = unity

 

[Topher]

Servus Pio XII:

Hopefully most everyone here knows what I’m talking about here. Recently, a youth group has arisen known as “Life Teen” which uses contemporary “Christian” rock music in the Mass! I see this as a compleat disgrace to the Mass, and but one more front in the ongoing war for the Church fought between 2,000 years of tradition and the modern era.

Now, I am, if you didn’t guess, still advocating Latin Masses, but to anyone with any reasonably moderate viewpoint, this Liturgy with rock music must seem like an abomination!

Please post opinions below, I am open to a civilised debate.

I am a Life Teen core member (volounteer youth minister) and I have a hard time believing that life teen music is “rock” music.