"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

[Topher]

Michael Welter:

Chaperone? Our teens don’t need a chaperone at Mass.

Well, that would be the Holy Spirit. I am in love with God, and I strive daily to give the Holy Spirit permission to work in my life. I go to the Life Teen Mass because the music draws me to God. I also serve at that Mass as the audio technician. When I was 13, I accepted the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and accepted charismatic gofts, such as tongues and prophecy. That spirituality has kept me Catholic, and the Life Teen Mass meets my needs.

I used to be in to that Charismatic stuff myself, but I saw alot of bad fruit from it: People whose faith was based on emotional experiences and not the truth of Christ. People who, when hardship came and the good feelings went away, did not stick with Christ. Furthermore, there is no history of such spirituality in all of Church history. Not one saint speaks of it. Even the passages referenced from scripture by Charismatics are taken out of context and misused. The Charismatic movement started in the protestant religion and that scares me because, although I love the protestants, their religion is heresy. I am not saying this to be mean but out of genuine concern. By the way, baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs at baptism and at confirmation. If we revieve the fullness of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Confirmation, then there is no need for any extra so called “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”.

 

[Michael_Welter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I have to ask, were you Catholic when you were baptized by the Holy Spirit? I’m not being a jerk here, I really want to know.

Yes, I was raised Catholic. St. Paul talks about baptism by water, as well as baptism of the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, but we also need to give Him permission to work in our lives. He has gifts for each of us. It’s all over the New Testament.

 

[Michael_Welter]

palmas85:

What exactly do you mean that you accepted Baptism of the Holy Spirit and accepted gifts of prophecy and speaking in tongues? That sounds like a Pentecostal Protestant Baptism. I was unaware that Catholics were Baptized in that fashion.

It was rather common in the days of the Apostles. The book of Acts is full of examples, and 1 Corinthians 12 talks extensively about the gifts.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Dr. Bombay:

When you speak in tongues, do you actually speak a foreign language that a person can understand, or do you just speak gibberish? And what prophecies have you been gifted with? Please share with us. Don’t keep your light hidden under a basket.

I am a jerk, but I still want to know.

Some people receive a gift of tongues that is a language known to other people, though not to the person who received the gift. To my knowledge, the language that I speak is not a human language. It is a gift from God that I use to praise Him, since our language falls short of His true glory.

Most of the prophesies that I received were for a specific time and place. Some were received during group prayers and shared with the group. Others were received for individuals and given to them. My mom also has received the gift of prophecy (She’ll be 75 next month). Sometimes, when I need an answer from God, I will ask her to seek a word from Him, but I won’t tell her the question. She will call me back with what she heard from God, and it always answers the question that I had.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Topher:

Furthermore, there is no history of such spirituality in all of Church history. Not one saint speaks of it. Even the passages referenced from scripture by Charismatics are taken out of context and misused. The Charismatic movement started in the protestant religion and that scares me because, although I love the protestants, their religion is heresy.

The gifts of the Spirit are all over the new testament, starting in the Acts of the Apostles. So it didn’t start with the Protestants, it started at Pentacost with tongues of fire descending on the Apostles. St. Paul says that he would prefer that everyone have the gift of tongues.

 

[palmas85]

Michael Welter:

The gifts of the Spirit are all over the new testament, starting in the Acts of the Apostles. So it didn’t start with the Protestants, it started at Pentacost with tongues of fire descending on the Apostles. St. Paul says that he would prefer that everyone have the gift of tongues.

A large percentage of Pentecostal Protestant Churches believe exactly that. The Four Square Gospel Church is one that comes to mind as I actually went to one of their services once. In fact they trace their lineage all the way back to Pentecost and often claim that the Church has suppressed them throughout history.

You have said several times that the examples of these happenings are all over the New Testament.Could you point some of them out to us instead of just saying in Acts or in Corinthians?. I don’t think that anyone here is trying to denigrate your beliefs, but they don’t seem to be Catholic beliefs. Soryy, but they don’t.

 

[JDeL]

Topher:

Are you kidding me? When I was a teenager classical music had no sacred feeling to me at all, and this is coming from a person who sang in his high school choir, one of the best in the state. I thought that classical musci was “pretty” but to me was entirely irrelevant. I saw those whose who wanted to force the body of christ to use it at mass as silly and stuck up. Just forcing us to think that God was some upper class stuck up old guy. It wasn’t unitl I was introduced to Christ through the life teen program that I developed a reverance for Christ. It was then I realized that he was the almighty and perfect God who descended to earth to die a painful and blood death for the sins of all. It was through the Life Teen program, that I came to realize that God deserves every bit of my being. I did not even think of Christ in that whole “buddy Christ” way.
Look, I agree that people need to realize that the mass is holy sacrifice and not fun time, but we need to make that apparent in the way that the teenagers can understand too. I think your conclusions are based on two faulty premises. First, you seem to believe that classical music and greagorian chant are INTRINSICALLY superior to contemporary music. That is simply absurd. They are nothing more than types of music from two different times in history. Second, you seem to think that every one is the same person and that the same way of bringing them to Christ will always work. That is also absurd. Each person is unique and unrepeatable. And if different kinds of music help different people enter into the mystery of Christ and the Mass, then so be it.

Topher,

I respectfully disagree. What you think is absurd, I believe is the scourge of modern Western Civilization. I also have encountered a sense of futility in attempting to convince others(young and older alike) of the deception of popular/contemporary music. Those who are addicted to it want to hear none of it.

That being said, music wherein the rhythm is the predominant aspect of the music(anything you can clap to, thus all of popular music) , speaks foremost to the body, rather than the heart and soul. Like other things that speak mostly to the body, addiction, distraction and perversion follow.

Like the church, we must strive for unity in the music at Mass. When we focus on the rhythm of the song, making it predominant over harmony and melody, we are dis-united and disordered. Interestingly, there were Classical musicians who loved disunity, too. They are not out of the problem here either.

Further, I do support the Life-Teen discussions that happen after Mass. I just think their focus should change into the Pre-Industrial Revolution concept of the teenaged person. The whole idea of the teen-ager should be rethought. Young people should be educated as to how to evaluate forms of music to decide how they fit into their spiritual lives. They should from these sessions learn that the Mass should not be catered to fit their societally-constructed needs. Knowing that the teen-age years are the most impressionable years, we should entrench them in the truth, not a lukewarm modern interpretation of it. Life-Night sessions should also help young people to make quality decisions so as to allow Christ to permeate all components of their existence, as St. Paul says, thus transforming their musical tastes on an at-home, MP-3 personal level, too.

If anyone is further interested, Fr. Basil Nortz series on music and morality is available here: www.grottopress.org

As I mentioned earlier, his tapes changed my life from one of addiction and shallowness to something much closer to God.

I pray that you all allow his message to change each one of you as well.

JD

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

I guess that u didn’t get that I was also being sarcastic. And by the way, if the mass needs gregorian chant to be reverant then it is not what the Church claims the mass is. If the mass is not bigger than the type of music that is played, then our entire faith is in vain because it is centered around the mass. I personally have so much faith in the mystery of the presence of the sacrifice of Christ in the mass, I certainly don’t believe that “Life Teen music” can hurt that.
And by the way, you are not talking to some liberal and uneducated Catholic. I am a student of Thomas Aquinas, an amatuer philosopher, very traditional (i would attend the Tridentine mass if it was more readily available), and I hate the idea of faith based on emtions. But I do not deny the that emotions are good because they were created by God like so many of you ultra-traditionalists do.

I don’t really listen to music at Mass, and when it is there I find it somewhat distracting from prayer. I have never needed the kind of outside stimulation that many seem to need in order to feel close to God. And while I do not doubt the sincerity of most of those that do, sometimes you can achieve what appear to be ecstatic states that are in no way religious in nature just from music. Raves are a pretty fair example or fairly rhythmatic drumming. Nothing at al religious about it just a normal human reaction to the rhythm.

I never thought you were uneducated and haven’t read enough of your posts to know if you are liberal or not. You did have a very condescending way of speaking however, which I did take some exception to.

And no, I am not an ultra traditionalist, not a sede vecantist, don’t go to schismatic Masses, don’t support schismatic groups, nope not at all.

But I do believe that many of the reforms of Vatican II did much more harm than good, and I don’t really think that can be disputed in most cases. I do believe that ecumenical dailogue is pretty much a wasted effort, because what we present as reconciliation, the other Churches see as a weakness and a lack of belief in our own faith. I don’t agree with Teen Masses, Bi Lingual Masses, Clown Masses Charismatic Masses, Healing Masses etc. I believe that the Church needs to re-claim its rightful place, quit trying so hard to accomodate the other faiths and offer the truth to the world. Thats all.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I respectfully disagree. What you think is absurd, I believe is the scourge of modern Western Civilization. I also have encountered a sense of futility in attempting to convince others(young and older alike) of the deception of popular/contemporary music. Those who are addicted to it want to hear none of it.

That being said, music wherein the rhythm is the predominant aspect of the music(anything you can clap to, thus all of popular music) , speaks foremost to the body, rather than the heart and soul. Like other things that speak mostly to the body, addiction, distraction and perversion follow.

Like the church, we must strive for unity in the music at Mass. When we focus on the rhythm of the song, making it predominant over harmony and melody, we are dis-united and disordered. Interestingly, there were Classical musicians who loved disunity, too. They are not out of the problem here either.

Further, I do support the Life-Teen discussions that happen after Mass. I just think their focus should change into the Pre-Industrial Revolution concept of the teenaged person. The whole idea of the teen-ager should be rethought. Young people should be educated as to how to evaluate forms of music to decide how they fit into their spiritual lives. They should from these sessions learn that the Mass should not be catered to fit their societally-constructed needs. Knowing that the teen-age years are the most impressionable years, we should entrench them in the truth, not a lukewarm modern interpretation of it. Life-Night sessions should also help young people to make quality decisions so as to allow Christ to permeate all components of their existence, as St. Paul says, thus transforming their musical tastes on an at-home, MP-3 personal level, too.

If anyone is further interested, Fr. Basil Nortz series on music and morality is available here: www.grottopress.org

As I mentioned earlier, his tapes changed my life from one of addiction and shallowness to something much closer to God.

I pray that you all allow his message to change each one of you as well.

JD

I second this motion. Jolly good show!

I have no quarrel with the Life-night at our parish, because they do not hold a “Life-teen Mass” prior to scripture study, nor do they do anything with the organisation. I think at one point it may have been part of it, but now it simply retains the name.

As for addicts to pop and the futility, I have also encountered that. Firstly, my taste in music is pretty much: If it was written after World War II, I don’t like it. And also, the earlier, the better. I have argued the point, comparing the innocent lyrics of the earlier songs with the profane ones today, but no one wants to hear it. Ex. Compare “I’m Going to Give it to Mary with Love” (1930’s) with any modern rap song. What do you have? In the former, the singer recounts his proposal to Mary. Supposing both women are Marys, in the latter, the singer recounts him raping and/or abusing Mary.

Pop vs. Classical-Early Jazz. No comparison.

 

[ohioflash]

I had to laugh when I read this post. I am a Life Teen Musician. I play electric bass guitar, and acoustic electric guitar. I have been a part of a Life Teen Band for almost 8 years now. I have been a parish musician since the mid 70’s.

I started off as a young child in the children’s choir & moved into place as a guitar player. By being active in the mass it really made a difference for me.

Those of you that have never been to a Life Teen mass should experience it firsthand. It is not Devil music. We play Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith. You should also make a point out of checking out the Life Teen website. Learn about what this program is all about.

Ignorance is one thing, to knock a program & not know what it is all about. I have attended regular masses & will only attend a church where my family can participate & share their God Given talents with the rest of the congregation.

 

[Topher]

Michael Welter:

The gifts of the Spirit are all over the new testament, starting in the Acts of the Apostles. So it didn’t start with the Protestants, it started at Pentacost with tongues of fire descending on the Apostles. St. Paul says that he would prefer that everyone have the gift of tongues.

But these gifts in the new testament are not what you are talking about. Toungues is sponken of as an ability to speak in other languages not to repeat nonsensical syllabls ofver and over. There is no record in the New Testament of any so called being “slain in the spirit” experience. All the references that are used to support being “baptized in the Spirit” actually refer to baptism and confirmation.

 

[Michael_Welter]

palmas85:

A large percentage of Pentecostal Protestant Churches believe exactly that. The Four Square Gospel Church is one that comes to mind as I actually went to one of their services once.

Of course, that doesn’t make it wrong. The Protestant churches have a lot of truth in them.

You have said several times that the examples of these happenings are all over the New Testament.Could you point some of them out to us instead of just saying in Acts or in Corinthians?. I don’t think that anyone here is trying to denigrate your beliefs, but they don’t seem to be Catholic beliefs. Sorry, but they don’t.
That’s a fair request. I’ll give a few examples now, and look up more later, if you need them.

Let’s start with Acts 2:1-4. The Apostles, after being “filled with the Holy Spirit” began to speak in different tongues. This was not a sudden education. They were given a special gift.

1 Cor. 12:10 Paul is dicussing the “gift” of the Holy Spirit. Among them, he talks about Prophesy and “varieties of tongues”. He goes on after that to explain that each of us is given different gifts to serve different parts of the body. This all culminates in 1 Cor. 12:29-31.

1 Cor. 14:5 Paul tells us that he would like everyone to speak in tongues, but even more, to prophesy. He extols both gifts, but places prophesy above the gift of tongues.

These are just a few examples, but as you can see, these gifts existed long before the Protestants.

God is good!

 

[Topher]

JDeL:

Topher,

I respectfully disagree. What you think is absurd, I believe is the scourge of modern Western Civilization. I also have encountered a sense of futility in attempting to convince others(young and older alike) of the deception of popular/contemporary music. Those who are addicted to it want to hear none of it.

That being said, music wherein the rhythm is the predominant aspect of the music(anything you can clap to, thus all of popular music) , speaks foremost to the body, rather than the heart and soul. Like other things that speak mostly to the body, addiction, distraction and perversion follow.

Like the church, we must strive for unity in the music at Mass. When we focus on the rhythm of the song, making it predominant over harmony and melody, we are dis-united and disordered. Interestingly, there were Classical musicians who loved disunity, too. They are not out of the problem here either.

Further, I do support the Life-Teen discussions that happen after Mass. I just think their focus should change into the Pre-Industrial Revolution concept of the teenaged person. The whole idea of the teen-ager should be rethought. Young people should be educated as to how to evaluate forms of music to decide how they fit into their spiritual lives. They should from these sessions learn that the Mass should not be catered to fit their societally-constructed needs. Knowing that the teen-age years are the most impressionable years, we should entrench them in the truth, not a lukewarm modern interpretation of it. Life-Night sessions should also help young people to make quality decisions so as to allow Christ to permeate all components of their existence, as St. Paul says, thus transforming their musical tastes on an at-home, MP-3 personal level, too.

If anyone is further interested, Fr. Basil Nortz series on music and morality is available here: www.grottopress.org

As I mentioned earlier, his tapes changed my life from one of addiction and shallowness to something much closer to God.

I pray that you all allow his message to change each one of you as well.

JD

No, the idea that the mass has to have a certian kind of music to be reverant is absurd. but I realize the futility of trying to convince some one so emotionaly attached to a type of music of the nature of reality. I think that I can see where you are coming from though. We had a temporary priest at our parish who was sort of like you. He also came out of a life of addiction to a life in Christ. The problem with people of such dramatic conversions is that they often attempt to be what I call “holier than the Church” or “more Catholic than the Pope”. Thus, they try to force some ultra traditional agenda down everyone’s throught rather than teaching devotion to Christ and his church. This priest had everyone so scurpulous about everything that anyone who went to him for spiritual advice was a basket case afterwards. Rather than teaching devotion to Christ, he was pushing people away from Jesus. Which, I fear is what your approach to the faith will do.
There is also a fallacy in your thinking. While I agree that people can often get into exstatic states through different kinds of music (and gregorian chant is not immune to this because New Agers will use it for that very perpose) and I do NOT think that exstatic or “Charismatic” states are a good thing, you seem to behave as if the body is entirely unimportant in the Spiritual life. This is the heresy of the Gnostics and the Jansenists. We are a unit, body and spirit, and we are to use both body and Spirit to worship God. That is why we kneel and bow at mass and that is why sometimes people clap during a song of praise. Now I myself am not much for clapping but I do not condem those who do because I cannot say if they are using it to worship the LORD or not. I cannot see their hearts.
And as for the type of music determining unity, that is also absurd. The unity is in the reception of the Holy Eucharist, not in musical styles or preferences. The unity is in conformity of the celebration of the Divine Liturgy to the specifications of the rubrics provided by the Church. I really believe that ultratraditionalism like the views that you espouse are just another form of modernism. Since moderninsm is the undue attachment to all things novel, and the ultratraditionalist movement is novel, thenthey are just as guilty of modernism as liberals are.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

I don’t really listen to music at Mass, and when it is there I find it somewhat distracting from prayer. I have never needed the kind of outside stimulation that many seem to need in order to feel close to God. And while I do not doubt the sincerity of most of those that do, sometimes you can achieve what appear to be ecstatic states that are in no way religious in nature just from music. Raves are a pretty fair example or fairly rhythmatic drumming. Nothing at al religious about it just a normal human reaction to the rhythm.

I never thought you were uneducated and haven’t read enough of your posts to know if you are liberal or not. You did have a very condescending way of speaking however, which I did take some exception to.

And no, I am not an ultra traditionalist, not a sede vecantist, don’t go to schismatic Masses, don’t support schismatic groups, nope not at all.

But I do believe that many of the reforms of Vatican II did much more harm than good, and I don’t really think that can be disputed in most cases. I do believe that ecumenical dailogue is pretty much a wasted effort, because what we present as reconciliation, the other Churches see as a weakness and a lack of belief in our own faith. I don’t agree with Teen Masses, Bi Lingual Masses, Clown Masses Charismatic Masses, Healing Masses etc. I believe that the Church needs to re-claim its rightful place, quit trying so hard to accomodate the other faiths and offer the truth to the world. Thats all.

As for the whole, exstatic states stuff, i am not into that myself. I am not a charismatic, though I used to be and believe that such spirituality is a real problem. Too much faith based on emontion. However, I would like to point out that gregorian chant is not immune from these problems. New Agers are happy to use such style of music to reach exstatic states.
And I agree that the reforms of Vatican II brought more harm than good. This whole ecumenical nonsense waters down the faith, and most Catholics have, unfortunately abandoned the infallible doctrine of “exta ecclesia non solus”. Too many Catholics think that the Church has changed its beliefs. In the end I believe that vatican II has simply damaged the church.
As for the differet kinds of masses though, you are way off base. Why no bilingual mass? There is no problem here. People speack different languages. Not everyone is fluent in Spanish and they may want to attend mass with their family members who speak Spanish regularly. To have a problem with bilingual masses borders on racism. As for the charismatic masses, I would have to agree with you because I think that the Charismatic movement is bad for the faithful. As for the teen masses, not a problem as long as they follow the rubrics and are done reverantly. I don’t suggest doing it the way St.Tim’s does in Arizona though. You have to remember that each person is unique and unrepeatable.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

As for the whole, exstatic states stuff, i am not into that myself. I am not a charismatic, though I used to be and believe that such spirituality is a real problem. Too much faith based on emontion. However, I would like to point out that gregorian chant is not immune from these problems. New Agers are happy to use such style of music to reach exstatic states.
And I agree that the reforms of Vatican II brought more harm than good. This whole ecumenical nonsense waters down the faith, and most Catholics have, unfortunately abandoned the infallible doctrine of “exta ecclesia non solus”. Too many Catholics think that the Church has changed its beliefs. In the end I believe that vatican II has simply damaged the church.
As for the differet kinds of masses though, you are way off base. Why no bilingual mass? There is no problem here. People speack different languages. Not everyone is fluent in Spanish and they may want to attend mass with their family members who speak Spanish regularly. To have a problem with bilingual masses borders on racism. As for the charismatic masses, I would have to agree with you because I think that the Charismatic movement is bad for the faithful. As for the teen masses, not a problem as long as they follow the rubrics and are done reverantly. I don’t suggest doing it the way St.Tim’s does in Arizona though. You have to remember that each person is unique and unrepeatable.

Since you have never met me I will let the racist statement slide.

My problem with bi-lingual masses is essentially not the idea of hearing Mass in any particular language, but rather where does it begin and end? For instance say in a particular parish you have a roughly equal distribution of Spanish, Vietnamese, Tagalog and English speakers.Incidentally that refelects my Parish. Which language do you use for the bi-lingual aspect? If Spanish and English, the Vietnamese and Tagalog are left out unless they speak one of the other languages. Ditto for the others.

Do you propose then saying each Mass in all possible languages spoken in each particular parish? Sounds like an immense logistical problem. Possibly you could have lectors in each individual language, but that might extend the Mass to several hours, again depending on the languages spoken. Since most people can’t seem to sit still for the 45 minutes most Masses take now I can’t see them hanging around much longer. Or you could have prograns or missalettes printed in the various languages, but that would entail people reading during the Mass, which apparently is one of the big issues with the anti-Latin crowd.

In the old days the Church solved this problem by having ethnic parishes, say one for the Italians, one for the Germans one for the Polish etc. They all might be in the same general area, in many cases right across the street from each other. The people attended whichever one they chose.

My parish church has solved this problem in the old fashioned way. They have Masses offered in English, Spanish, Tagalog and Vietnamese. None are bi-lingual, all are exclusively in the language offered and the people pick which one they attend. It works well, but I suppose some people might have problems with it, exclusivity and all that. But it does work. And it reveals something which I find quite refreshing.

The Masses given in Spanish, Tagalog and Vietnamese are predominately attended by recent immigrants and older people who have never been comfortable in English. The teens, young adults and those of the second generation and later seem to gravitate towards the English Language Mass by and large. That particular tendency, historically, has been the way things work out in this country in just about every field possible…

Just as an aside, I actually like hearing Mass in Spanish because the translations are closer to the Latin and thus truer to the original texts.

As far as the teen Masses go, I can honestly find no justification for them. Teens are not a separate ethnic, racial or social group. Rather it is a life stage that we all go through. I remember full well the chaos of the mid 60’s to the early 70’s when I was a member of that particular group I remember how unique we felt we were, how different we felt we were, how misunderstood we felt we were, how persected we felt we were and how we felt that we could relate better and only with those of our age group. All of it very self satisfying, very self gratifying and all of it completely and totally …

UNTRUE and probably quite selfish in retrospect.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

Since you have never met me I will let the racist statement slide.

My problem with bi-lingual masses is essentially not the idea of hearing Mass in any particular language, but rather where does it begin and end? For instance say in a particular parish you have a roughly equal distribution of Spanish, Vietnamese, Tagalog and English speakers.Incidentally that refelects my Parish. Which language do you use for the bi-lingual aspect? If Spanish and English, the Vietnamese and Tagalog are left out unless they speak one of the other languages. Ditto for the others.

Do you propose then saying each Mass in all possible languages spoken in each particular parish? Sounds like an immense logistical problem. Possibly you could have lectors in each individual language, but that might extend the Mass to several hours, again depending on the languages spoken. Since most people can’t seem to sit still for the 45 minutes most Masses take now I can’t see them hanging around much longer. Or you could have prograns or missalettes printed in the various languages, but that would entail people reading during the Mass, which apparently is one of the big issues with the anti-Latin crowd.

In the old days the Church solved this problem by having ethnic parishes, say one for the Italians, one for the Germans one for the Polish etc. They all might be in the same general area, in many cases right across the street from each other. The people attended whichever one they chose.

My parish church has solved this problem in the old fashioned way. They have Masses offered in English, Spanish, Tagalog and Vietnamese. None are bi-lingual, all are exclusively in the language offered and the people pick which one they attend. It works well, but I suppose some people might have problems with it, exclusivity and all that. But it does work. And it reveals something which I find quite refreshing.

The Masses given in Spanish, Tagalog and Vietnamese are predominately attended by recent immigrants and older people who have never been comfortable in English. The teens, young adults and those of the second generation and later seem to gravitate towards the English Language Mass by and large. That particular tendency, historically, has been the way things work out in this country in just about every field possible…

Just as an aside, I actually like hearing Mass in Spanish because the translations are closer to the Latin and thus truer to the original texts.

As far as the teen Masses go, I can honestly find no justification for them. Teens are not a separate ethnic, racial or social group. Rather it is a life stage that we all go through. I remember full well the chaos of the mid 60’s to the early 70’s when I was a member of that particular group I remember how unique we felt we were, how different we felt we were, how misunderstood we felt we were, how persected we felt we were and how we felt that we could relate better and only with those of our age group. All of it very self satisfying, very self gratifying and all of it completely and totally …

UNTRUE and probably quite selfish in retrospect.

Actually teenagers are a distinct social group as are those who are elderly, those who are middle aged, etc. If you cannot see this, then I would hesitate to take much of what you say seriously.
I think though that talking to you has been really good for me. It has reminded me that although I never want to dabble in the relm of liberalism, their is a sort of ultratraditionalism that is not in line with the mind of the Church. As for me and my household (when I get my own household, still single) we will stick with the Church and the direction that the Holy Spirit leads the Church.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

Actually teenagers are a distinct social group as are those who are elderly, those who are middle aged, etc. If you cannot see this, then I would hesitate to take much of what you say seriously.
I think though that talking to you has been really good for me. It has reminded me that although I never want to dabble in the relm of liberalism, their is a sort of ultratraditionalism that is not in line with the mind of the Church. As for me and my household (when I get my own household, still single) we will stick with the Church and the direction that the Holy Spirit leads the Church.

Well if you choose to paint me as an ultratraditionalist I’ll accept that; No hard feelings.

No, teenagers, middleagers and the elderly are not separate social groups, and don’t really require separate special treatment… Rather they are age groups within their respective social classes. However, since we all experience these things they hardly classify as distinct groups from a socialogical persepective. rather they are different stages in life, nothing more and nothing less. I know that many pseudo socialogists try to make these claims but overall they are not supported by hard facts.

I noticed that you did not answer the bi-lingual mass angle in your response. Too bad, I was hoping to see how you responded to it. As to your family I hope and trust that you will allow the Holy Spirit to lead you and them.

As to some not being in line with the Church, I agree. However the Church itself does not want or require slavish obedience. A person must use his own judgement. Just because someone has an different opinion than you does not make them wrong and you right. All too often people surround themselves only with those who agree with their viewpoints. A terrible mistake to make!! There is much to be learned from dealing with those from different social groups, age groups, ethnic groups etc. Surely an intelligent young person such as yourself can see that.

However one thing you must realize is that often the way you must follow is not the one you think. Or even the one you want. The Holy Spirit does not always lead us in the direction we think he will and often we end up where we never thought we would.

 

[ncjohn]

palmas85:

As to some not being in line with the Church, I agree. However the Church itself does not want or require slavish obedience. A person must use his own judgement. Just because someone has an different opinion than you does not make them wrong and you right. All too often people surround themselves only with those who agree with their viewpoints. A terrible mistake to make!! There is much to be learned from dealing with those from different social groups, age groups, ethnic groups etc. Surely an intelligent young person such as yourself can see that.

And here you make exactly the argument so many of us have been trying to make here. People have different opinions and that doesn’t make them wrong just because they are different from yours.

You and others here have made numerous statements about the life teen music being evil, demonic, or at the least unsuitable for Mass. The Church hasn’t said so.

You have made statements about teens being in front of the church being equivalent to an “altar call.” Heaven forbid then that we bring people to the front for baptism, first communion, or the Knights of Columbus special events. The Church has no problem with that.

You have made statements about Charismatics, along with healing Masses and others, having no place. The Church has made no such statements.

You have directly insulted one of the posters by questioning why a 47 year old man would go to a Life Teen Mass. I could just as easily question why you do any number of things you do. Who is any of us to judge whether our preferences need to be acceptable or explainable to someone else? I don’t see the Church telling people that age excludes them from certain Masses.

With all due respect, your religion seems to have a lot of rules and judgments that my Catholic Church doesn’t have. My Catholic Church recognizes that different people have different spiritualities, different devotions, and that God is big enough to communicate with each of them in the way He made them. As you have correctly noted, the Church does not want or demand slavish obedience. There is room for those who like Latin and those who don’t; those who want to kneel for communion and those who prefer to stand; and yes, those who want to hear Chant and those who prefer something more contemporary.

No, I’m not really implying in any way that you’re not Catholic Palmas, I’m just commenting that you are seeming in these Life Teen threads to want to put out a lot of extra requirements that the Church doesn’t have, and that I really don’t believe for a second Jesus would be imposing. I greatly respect your knowledge, devotion, and piety Palmas. There comes the time though to recognize that many of us have knowledge, devotion, and piety just as great as yours even if it might manifest itself differently from yours. It doesn’t make yours better or ours better. It just means that each of us has to respond to God as we best see Him. If that means praying rosaries, fine; if that means doing adoration, great. As a secular Franciscan my devotions and lifestyle are quite different from Dominicans or Benedictines. I think that’s wonderful! It takes all the gifts and blessings in the Body of Christ to reach out to this wounded and crying world.

Instead of being in here shooting down someone else’s worship or devotion style, I would think we should be celebrating that there are so many people finding their way to God; heck we should be celebrating that there are so many that want to find their way. It’s time to let the Holy Spirit do his job, whatever form that might take. To quote a pretty smart guy:

The Holy Spirit does not always lead us in the direction we think he will and often we end up where we never thought we would.

Peace,

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

Well if you choose to paint me as an ultratraditionalist I’ll accept that; No hard feelings.

No, teenagers, middleagers and the elderly are not separate social groups, and don’t really require separate special treatment… Rather they are age groups within their respective social classes. However, since we all experience these things they hardly classify as distinct groups from a socialogical persepective. rather they are different stages in life, nothing more and nothing less. I know that many pseudo socialogists try to make these claims but overall they are not supported by hard facts.

I noticed that you did not answer the bi-lingual mass angle in your response. Too bad, I was hoping to see how you responded to it. As to your family I hope and trust that you will allow the Holy Spirit to lead you and them.

As to some not being in line with the Church, I agree. However the Church itself does not want or require slavish obedience. A person must use his own judgement. Just because someone has an different opinion than you does not make them wrong and you right. All too often people surround themselves only with those who agree with their viewpoints. A terrible mistake to make!! There is much to be learned from dealing with those from different social groups, age groups, ethnic groups etc. Surely an intelligent young person such as yourself can see that.

However one thing you must realize is that often the way you must follow is not the one you think. Or even the one you want. The Holy Spirit does not always lead us in the direction we think he will and often we end up where we never thought we would.

I chose not to address your problems with bilingual masses because your objections were absurd. The mass can certainly be said in more than one language, depending on the linguistic needs of the community. If a church has a big vietnamese population, then why not have a bilingual vietnamese mass?
If it has a large hispanic population, like my state, why not have a bilingual Spanish mass. The idea that each church will have to accomodate each language is silly. Each geographical location has different linguistic backgrounds. I doubt very highly that the city I live in has a very large swahili population. That is one language group that it is unnecessary to address. However, with all the bilingual speakers, monolingual spanish speakers, and monlingual english speakers in my disocese, a bilingual mass is a cause for unity.
As for the Holy Spirit leading me where I wouldn’t to go, this is silly because Life Teen mass is not my thing. It is not what I want to go to. I like the Tridentine mass better. In fact, I like the byzantine liturgy even more. I defend Life Teen because, although it is not my cup of tea, it can be very useful in the the spiritual life of many people.
I think that you should really consider yourself, whether you are following the path that the Holy Spirit has set out for you. Your ultratraditionalism is quite frankly not in line with the Spirit of the Church and I fear that you will scare many Catholics away or would be converts. Your Jesus is legalistic. Your Jesus cares nothing for the individual. The Jesus of all of Chruch history is quite different from yours. The Jesus of the Catholic Church created each person as unique and unrepeatable. The Jesus of the Catholic Church, although he expects us all to maintian the orthodox Catholic Faith, knows that each person will express that differently. That is why we are all created different. We are one body but many members with different functions.
And as for having a different opinon, that is not the reason that I think that you are wrong. I think that you are wrong because all of your conclusions have been based and faulty premises. And if you think that it is OK to disagree, then you should leave Life Teen alone. I have no problem with the Tridentine mass.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

I
. Your ultratraditionalism is quite frankly not in line with the Spirit of the Church and I fear that you will scare many Catholics away or would be converts. Your Jesus is legalistic. Your Jesus cares nothing for the individual. The Jesus of all of Chruch history is quite different from yours. The Jesus of the Catholic Church created each person as unique and unrepeatable. The Jesus of the Catholic Church, although he expects us all to maintian the orthodox Catholic Faith, knows that each person will express that differently.] QUOTE=Topher

Many people use the phrase “not in line with the Spirit of the Church” to define anyone who does not follow a liberal, feel good, I love you, you love me we’re a happy family version of the faith. You know the version, where no matter what anyone believes it is all right. See God in your own unique way. No real need for conformity, bend God and Jesus to fit YOUR perception of Him, because all that really matters is what you want and need anyway. You are what counts you are special.

If any potential convert would be scared away beacause of me his desire to be a Catholic wasn’t very strong to begin with. And I hardly think that I am impressive or powerful enough to run anyone out of the Church. You give me way too much credit.

I don’t see where in the world you got the impression that “your Jesus” meaning mine, did not care about individuals. By the way, my Jesus is exactly the same as yours and everyone elses. We don’t have separate, individual, made to order for our own convenience Jesus Christs.

The legalistic part, well, Jesus was pretty hard core in what he taught and demanded tremendous sacrifices from his followers. He did not put up with a lot of dissent and expected things to be done in certain ways. Remember what he did in the Temple with the moneychangers, although, I suppose in that particular episode he could be seen as depriving some people of the right to earn a living. At least I’m sure they saw it that way.

No Jesus required, insisted on and DEMANDED that his disciples follow His path, the path of the Father Almighty, not what each person wanted to do or think. They had to submit to what He taught and what He said, and do things His way. There was no room for deviations in His ministry. He demanded total respect for God and for the Temple.

Many people seem to forget that these days