"Life Teen" Liturgy and it's destruction of centuries of Holy Tradition

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I remember the story Fr Corapi told… about actually being in the recording studio when Black Sabbath and other groups too would “dedicate” their music to Satan. “Upon their rock” the gates of hell would prevail.

Also, I believe it was Fr Groeschel who said that the angels all have a special gift. Lucifer’s was music. If so, lucifer sure uses it to destroy our children.

We should be even more critical of what music is joined to the Mass. Perhaps God will not tell us… perhaps He is sharing that responsibility with us, like He does Procreation.
 
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Topher:
But you are talking about human conventions concerning music and not divine ones. God has not put is divine stamp of approval on any particular syle of music.
So in other words you’re saying God doesn’t mind what style of music there is at Mass. Well did you ask Him what He feels about music at Mass? Did He say, “Oh no, Topher, I don’t mind which style of music y’all have at Mass!”?
 
Wow! I am new to this board, so bear with me.

First, I have never attended a Life Teen Mass - but I think I will look for one. I am involved in music ministry at my parish - I play handbells, and I do like the contemporary music. I started listening to contemporary Christian music last year - as an alternative to pop and/or talk radio - and soon began searching out contemporary Catholic artists. I had wondered why more of these songs were not used in the Mass.

In the Christian music scene, there are also a sub-genres known as Christian Rock and Christian Rap.

I am not too familiar with Gregorian chant - but I do remember some traditional hymns from my childhood - and I still love to hear them. I think there is a place for many styles of music - as long as it is done with reverence.

DianeZ
 
I remember the story Fr Corapi told… about actually being in the recording studio when Black Sabbath and other groups too would “dedicate” their music to Satan. “Upon their rock” the gates of hell would prevail.
The right honourable gentlemen who doubted that modern music was more vulgar than older secular music can now consider their argument closed.
 
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DiZent:
Wow! I am new to this board, so bear with me.
First of all, welcome to the forum (I wonder where you heard about here:D)
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DiZent:
I think there is a place for many styles of music - as long as it is done with reverence.
Yes it can, but there seems to be a tendency to go overboard by some of the musicians when it comes to the more modern music. I saw this at my previous parish where, due to traveling, I had to attend the 7:00 PM mass at the Basilica. They had what I would call a rock group doing the music. It was so loud it was unbearable.

PF
 
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WanderAimlessly:
First of all, welcome to the forum (I wonder where you heard about here:D)

Yes it can, but there seems to be a tendency to go overboard by some of the musicians when it comes to the more modern music. I saw this at my previous parish where, due to traveling, I had to attend the 7:00 PM mass at the Basilica. They had what I would call a rock group doing the music. It was so loud it was unbearable.

PF
When mom & I were visiting neighboring parishes over the summer, we encountered a lot of different music - traditional, mostly contemporary, even some Latin. One Mass had no music at all - I did not like that. No Rock or Gregorian Chant 🙂 I also attended a bilingual service - was not a Mass, but a prayer service - part of Spiritfest celebration at the close of Disciples in Mission. Songs/prayers were in English & Spanish - the Spanish music was very lively, & Cardinal Keeler speaks fluent Spanish. I’ve been told that Mass at a predominantly black Catholic parish is a musical treat.

My daughter’s parish has a Life Teen Mass at 6:00 pm on Sunday evening. When she was trying to get her little boy to behave, someone suggested that she take him to the teen Mass - that it was loud and active. It’s not going to appeal to everyone, though.
 
Servus Pio XII:
The right honourable gentlemen who doubted that modern music was more vulgar than older secular music can now consider their argument closed.
Yeah, you’re right. The modern worship songs are all much more vulgar than any old bawdy tavern songs. :rotfl:

Servus, with all due respect, and with great admiration for your passion, you seem to have already developed a level of arrogance and certainty in your own infallibility that is quite frankly scary.

Without wishing you to dim your passion for God in the least, I hope you will prayerfully seek more to find His will rather than believiing you already have access to all the wisdom of the ages, and that there is nothing that anyone else might know that you don’t already have the answer to. Just as you know now more than you did when you were five, you will know much more 10 or 20 years from now than you do now…and you have no idea now what it is that you don’t know yet!

Don’t misunderstand me; I’m not “writing you off” for being young. You have a great degree of knowledge for your age, and a fire that we seldom see even in adults. As such you have much to contribute. You also however have much to learn, especially IMHO in dealing compassionately with other people. God made us differently, and to expect that everyone is going to have the same tastes and hew to your direction, as if you were God’s personal confidante, is way more than prideful.

Please pray for me to continue to grow in my wisdom and dedication as I will for you…

Peace,
 
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DavidJoseph:
Something to consider …

If Queen Elizabeth were coming, would there be rock music or something much more dignified-sounding? The latter, right? How much more so should we play dignified-sounding music for the King of Kings!

Also, as I’m sure we all know, the Mass is a sacrifice – the one sacrifice of Calvary made present on our altars. Of course, Jesus doesn’t die again during the Mass, but we’re participating in His actual sacrifice as well, standing at the foot of the cross just like Our Lady and St. John. True, we’re also at the heavenly banquet with all the angels and saints in attendance. But we mustn’t emphasize one aspect to the detriment of the other. Would you strum guitars and beat on drums while standing at the foot of the cross while Jesus is suffering, bleeding, and dying? I think not.
Something more dignified sounding? That is so very clearly dependent on the cultural context. The music you would play for Queen Elizabeth is different than the music you would have played for King Solomon, an Emperor of Japan, or Montezuma of the Aztecs.

We’re not actually standing at the foot of the cross while Jesus is suffering, bleeding, and dying. The Christ we worship in the Eucharist is the resurrected, glorified Christ, not Christ as he was on the cross, nor a dead Christ in the tomb. It is an unbloody sacrifice made present to us.

However, since it is Christ-resurrected whom is made present before us, we have cause for great joy. It is not a somber funeral, full of misery and sorrow, except in our own penitence. But then, so very soon after we confess our sins to God at Mass, the Church gives us the Gloria. Lo! He has risen from the dead! Why is Sunday Mass particularly significant in the life of the Church? Because that is the day of the Resurrection.
 
Servus Pio XII:
The right honourable gentlemen who doubted that modern music was more vulgar than older secular music can now consider their argument closed.
Except that this is not the first era in which music has been used in pagan cultic practices, or composed under the influence of a pagan spirituality.
 
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DavidJoseph:
Something to consider …

If Queen Elizabeth were coming, would there be rock music or something much more dignified-sounding? The latter, right? How much more so should we play dignified-sounding music for the King of Kings!
I would play the music that Queen Elizabeth found as dignified. If she preferred rock music, then that’s what I would play.
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DavidJoseph:
Also, as I’m sure we all know, the Mass is a sacrifice – the one sacrifice of Calvary made present on our altars.
It’s also a celebration. That’s why we call the presiding priest, the main celebrant.
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DavidJoseph:
Would you strum guitars and beat on drums while standing at the foot of the cross while Jesus is suffering, bleeding, and dying? I think not.
Neither would I play an organ at the foot of the cross. While the Mass is a participation in the death of Christ, it is not a recreation of an execution. It is a glorious participation in His death and resurrection, the greatest event in the history of the world. That’s why we sing the Gloria and the Alleluia, songs of joy and praise.
 
Servus,

As a young Catholic adult, I do appreciate your steadfastness and enthusiasm with regard to the scandalous nature of much of today’s worship music. There are very few people who have the guts to put it on the line as you do.

I commend you for that. I suggest, however, that you use the term mislead rather than stupid. Further, continue to pray for these people who do not see liturgical music as you do. It is impossible to metamorphose thinking patterns immediately. RIght now, many people are not capable of seeing as you are seeing. The veil must be lifted from their eyes, and it will take a long, long time for many.

When the veil is lifted, they will realize God’s immutability, that He does not change with the times as many human civilzations have.

Do not be discouraged by seeming futility, as the gates of Hell will not prevail, and sometimes prayer is just the best answer. Further, pray for the charity to admonish others as Christ would, pointing “it” out, not pointing the person out. This is one of my personal struggles, too.

I see it as you see it, that Life-Teen and feel-good modern music at Mass are a dichotomous lie(that the church should become mutable to meet the wants of the people), and a return to sacred silence especially at offertory and Communion is the only adequate solution.

JD
 
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JDeL:
I see it as you see it, that Life-Teen and feel-good modern music at Mass are a dichotomous lie(that the church should become mutable to meet the wants of the people), and a return to sacred silence especially at offertory and Communion is the only adequate solution.

JD
Throughout history both God and his Church have presented the same truth in different forms and ways.
 
I have read a lot of posts here that seem to oversimplify styles of music. Some talk about “rock” music at the teen mass. What is the definition of “rock” here? In my experience, the teen mass uses contemporary praise and worship music like “Shine, Jesus, Shine” “He is Exalted” “Shout to the Lord” etc. For those familiar with Christian bands, the music is like that offered on MWS Worship cds and less like the music of DC Talk, Newsboys, Petra, etc.

I am struggling with determining what makes music sacred. I am in the church choir and we do a mix of contemporary, traditional, and neo-traditional. Some of the comments in this and other threads have called common American Catholic mass songs like “Be Not Afraid” and “On Eagle’s Wings” (generally referred to as OCP music) everything from simply not liturgical to ugly and profane. I honestly would like to know what is not liturgical about it. If, indeed, it is not, I will try to educate our music ministers.

I have also read that only sufficiently loud organ music can truly encourage the congregation to sing. I have been to masses that utilized this concept and, while they may have sung, the organ was so loud that I couldn’t even hear those around me, including myself, singing. Is that sacred while acoustic guitar and piano are not? If so, why?

The guitarists are often in these anti-OCP threads referred to as “aging hippies” singing and playing bad music off key. No such stereotypes are applied to “aging organists” banging out music.

Don’t get me wrong. I am spiritually moved by WELL DONE music of either variety. Why blast one over the other. Again what makes one SACRED and not the other?
 
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dranzal:
I have read a lot of posts here that seem to oversimplify styles of music. Some talk about “rock” music at the teen mass. What is the definition of “rock” here? In my experience, the teen mass uses contemporary praise and worship music like “Shine, Jesus, Shine” “He is Exalted” “Shout to the Lord” etc. For those familiar with Christian bands, the music is like that offered on MWS Worship cds and less like the music of DC Talk, Newsboys, Petra, etc.

I am struggling with determining what makes music sacred. I am in the church choir and we do a mix of contemporary, traditional, and neo-traditional. Some of the comments in this and other threads have called common American Catholic mass songs like “Be Not Afraid” and “On Eagle’s Wings” (generally referred to as OCP music) everything from simply not liturgical to ugly and profane. I honestly would like to know what is not liturgical about it. If, indeed, it is not, I will try to educate our music ministers.

I have also read that only sufficiently loud organ music can truly encourage the congregation to sing. I have been to masses that utilized this concept and, while they may have sung, the organ was so loud that I couldn’t even hear those around me, including myself, singing. Is that sacred while acoustic guitar and piano are not? If so, why?

The guitarists are often in these anti-OCP threads referred to as “aging hippies” singing and playing bad music off key. No such stereotypes are applied to “aging organists” banging out music.

Don’t get me wrong. I am spiritually moved by WELL DONE music of either variety. Why blast one over the other. Again what makes one SACRED and not the other?
My experience is much like yours. Our music director is careful to balance the selections - appropriate to the readings, and a mix of contemporary and traditional, and I think the music is approved by the Pastor. I play handbells. A few years back, one priest did not appreciate one of our selections “Glockenchorspass” (may not be spelled right) - however, Msgr. Dennis liked any and all of our handbell music, so much to Fr. Michael’s disappointment, we played this lively piece often.

I think the problem some folks have with CCM is that much of it comes from the Protestants. I know that when I first started listening to CCM, I had the reaction that: “This is really good, and I like it, but where’s the Catholic stuff?”. The Catholic artists are out there - not marketed as well.
 
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DiZent:
I think the problem some folks have with CCM is that much of it comes from the Protestants. I know that when I first started listening to CCM, I had the reaction that: “This is really good, and I like it, but where’s the Catholic stuff?”. The Catholic artists are out there - not marketed as well.
There is an unspoken assumption (sometimes it is spoken though) that anything created by a Protestant is tainted. This practice of adopting music written by protestants is characterized as being a new phenomenon, but it really isn’t. Music written by Protestants has been adopted by the Church ever since there were protestants. Look and see – and you will find music and texts composed by the likes of Luther, Wesley, Mendelssohn, Bach, to name a few. After naming them, we can go on with a list of those composers who were Catholic in name only, for whom being a Church musician gave them an opportunity to show off their work and pay their bills.
 
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Prometheum_x:
There is an unspoken assumption (sometimes it is spoken though) that anything created by a Protestant is tainted. This practice of adopting music written by protestants is characterized as being a new phenomenon, but it really isn’t. Music written by Protestants has been adopted by the Church ever since there were protestants. Look and see – and you will find music and texts composed by the likes of Luther, Wesley, Mendelssohn, Bach, to name a few. After naming them, we can go on with a list of those composers who were Catholic in name only, for whom being a Church musician gave them an opportunity to show off their work and pay their bills.
I have noticed the same thing - I’m sure there must have been a reaction to that in its day. I like most CCM, and though not all of it would be appropriate for Mass, I think that when care is given to make sure it is in keeping with the Liturgy, and that it is done well, it can be quite appropriate.
 
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Prometheum_x:
Something more dignified sounding? That is so very clearly dependent on the cultural context. The music you would play for Queen Elizabeth is different than the music you would have played for King Solomon, an Emperor of Japan, or Montezuma of the Aztecs.
But this is Jesus – GOD. And the Church has prepared guidelines on what is acceptable and what isn’t. It has said that Gregorian chant and pipe organ music should have pride of place and also said that any instruments and musical pieces that have a secular, profane connotation shouldn’t be used in the Mass. And before you say that if it’s used to praise God then it becomes sacred, let me remind you that what something is being used for – a sacred purpose – doesn’t automatically make it sacred. Sorry to be crass, but to make a comparision, you can spray perfume on poop, but it’ll still stink.
We’re not actually standing at the foot of the cross while Jesus is suffering, bleeding, and dying. The Christ we worship in the Eucharist is the resurrected, glorified Christ, not Christ as he was on the cross, nor a dead Christ in the tomb. It is an unbloody sacrifice made present to us.

However, since it is Christ-resurrected whom is made present before us, we have cause for great joy. It is not a somber funeral, full of misery and sorrow, except in our own penitence. But then, so very soon after we confess our sins to God at Mass, the Church gives us the Gloria. Lo! He has risen from the dead! Why is Sunday Mass particularly significant in the life of the Church? Because that is the day of the Resurrection.
Yes, Christ is risen, and that’s the same Christ we worship at Mass – He who lives BUT WHO ALSO HAD DIED. According to your logic, we might as well stop using crucifixes at Mass and instead use those risen-Christ crosses. That’s a major reason why many parishes have taken out crucifixes in the sanctuary against the express liturgical laws of the Church.

My point is, while Mass is a time for celebration, we can’t focus on that to the detriment of the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice. I truly believe that losing sight of the Mass’s sacrificial aspect is a major cause of all the irreverence we see in Mass today. Heck, many “Catholics” these days wrongly claim that the Mass is just a communal meal commemorating Christ’s death and resurrection!
 
Michael Welter:
I would play the music that Queen Elizabeth found as dignified. If she preferred rock music, then that’s what I would play.

It’s also a celebration. That’s why we call the presiding priest, the main celebrant.

Neither would I play an organ at the foot of the cross. While the Mass is a participation in the death of Christ, it is not a recreation of an execution. It is a glorious participation in His death and resurrection, the greatest event in the history of the world. That’s why we sing the Gloria and the Alleluia, songs of joy and praise.
Please see my response to Prometheum_x.
 
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DavidJoseph:
But this is Jesus – GOD. And the Church has prepared guidelines on what is acceptable and what isn’t. It has said that Gregorian chant and pipe organ music should have pride of place and also said that any instruments and musical pieces that have a secular, profane connotation shouldn’t be used in the Mass. And before you say that if it’s used to praise God then it becomes sacred, let me remind you that what something is being used for – a sacred purpose – doesn’t automatically make it sacred. Sorry to be crass, but to make a comparision, you can spray perfume on poop, but it’ll still stink.
Jesus is God; therefore in all the activities of our life, whether sacred or secular, we are to give him glory. It is not because of his divinity that in the Liturgy we avoid the use of secular things. No, it is because as a sacred thing, we are drawing attention to its other-worldly nature. In it we are participating in the liturgy of heaven, so to speak – “we join with the angels and the saints in their unending hymn of praise” – and we “lift [our hearts] up to the Lord”. By avoiding these secular things, the visible, earthy qualities of this life, we draw attention to its invisible realities, to the cosmic – both spiritual and physical realms – significance of the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But it is not the case that we avoid things that have *any *secular or profane connotation. Rather, we avoid things that have a primarily or exclusively secular or profane connotation. Otherwise, we could not use the organ, for it has more than one secular connotation. In fact, as I have stated before, the organ itself once had almost exclusively secular associations.
Yes, Christ is risen, and that’s the same Christ we worship at Mass – He who lives BUT WHO ALSO HAD DIED. According to your logic, we might as well stop using crucifixes at Mass and instead use those risen-Christ crosses. That’s a major reason why many parishes have taken out crucifixes in the sanctuary against the express liturgical laws of the Church.
That is not my logic at all, especially since I was merely reiterating what the Church teaches on the matter and those who remove the crucifixes are doing it against the laws of the Church. Actually, those who use risen Christ crosses for the above reason are being rather inconsistent, for the Cross has no significance apart from its role in the death of Christ. It is itself a memorial of his death.
My point is, while Mass is a time for celebration, we can’t focus on that to the detriment of the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice. I truly believe that losing sight of the Mass’s sacrificial aspect is a major cause of all the irreverence we see in Mass today. Heck, many “Catholics” these days wrongly claim that the Mass is just a communal meal commemorating Christ’s death and resurrection!
From the way you originally stated your question, I wouldn’t have known that was your point, because you painted a picture of Christ hanging on the cross and then asked if it was appropriate to play certain kinds of music there. To me it seemed that you were committing the opposite error and focusing on the crucifixion at the expense of his resurrection.

Christ is now alive. He is ever present before the Father as both High-Priest and Sacrifice, but he does not remain dead. So, in the Mass, while Christ is made present to us as Sacrifice, this is not the presence of one who is dead. We remember his death, but now we live in his resurrection, having entered into his death through baptism.

So, let us use music that is fitting both for remembering his death and celebrating his resurrection. We need not do one at the expense of the other. The Church also gives us certain times of the Liturgical year in which we emphasize one more than the other. We have Lent, and then we have Easter.
 
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CanoeCamper55:
It is very easy to slip into a loud, distracting, and irreverent arrangement of a perfectly good liturgical song, or pick a song that is not liturgical at all. The danger in using contemporary worship music is to do it at Mass like it’s done on the CD. Usually, the songs have to be modified to be liturgically appropriate.

I would suggest some important characteristics when choosing/doing contemporary worship music for Mass:
  1. Worship songs should help people to pray.
  2. Lyrics should be “directed to God” rather than “about God” (as if He wasn’t with us at Mass).
  3. Lyrics should not contradict Church teachings or orthodox Catholic theology.
  4. The type of sound or the song’s arrangement should not draw attention to the musicians (e.g. loud lead guitar riffs, or excessive drum parts, or distracting flute harmonies).
  5. Worship songs at Mass should help one to encounter God, to draw one’s heart to God, to become more aware of His presence in the worship space.
  6. Musicians should be open to the working of the Holy Spirit, and recognize that we are just God’s instruments.
  7. It’s not about the musicians, but serving the people and God
  8. Soft acoustic or electro-acoustic guitars are perferred to loud electric guitars (electric bass is fine). The music must be done in a reverent and holy manner.
  9. Select music that reflects the Scripture readings/psalm of the day. Lot’s of contemporary worship music lyrics, especially the psalm-songs, are taken directly from Scripture.
  10. The musicians should pray before Mass that the Holy Spirit will use the music to touch people’s hearts and increase their love of God.
I offer a shortened form of my previous post (#314) to help answer the question, “What makes music sacred and appropriate for Mass?” Also, I have softened my view of #2, but still prefer lyrics that reflect OUR heartfelt prayers TO God.
 
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