Life Teen mass abuses - invalid mass?

[Jimsdun]

Although I despise Life Teen mass, I sometimes have to attend if I am unable to attend any other mass that day. Although most of the past abuses have been corrected and brought into line with GIRM standards, some abuses still persist. The most obvious abuse that still persists at my Life Teen parish is the teens still gather around the altar before the consecration.

Since this abuse still persists, does that constitute that the mass is invalid?

 

[PatrickJT914]

Why do you criticize Life Teen Mass? Why attack something that benefits teenagers? Who are you to say what is “liturgical abuse”? Are you a educated theologian? Are you placing yourself above the Pope and the Bishops? Jesus warned about placing too much legalism on people. He also said that man was not made for the Sabbath, but that the Sabbath was made for man. He should know because he was the Lord of the Sabbath. He also said not to prevent the little children,yes, including teenagers to come to him.

Oh, perhaps some of you are jealous that the church cares about it’s younger members by allowing Life Teen to become a part of the church’s ministry. Maybe because Youth Ministry/Life Teen was not part of your growing up. Is that why people nit pick, looking for preceived wrongs. Nobody has anything better to do. I recall Jesus saying about removing the plank from your own eye before looking at the speck in somebody’s else eye.

“Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity” 1 Timothy 4:12

 

[palmas85]

[Edited by Moderator]

Lifeteen may have started out as a good idea, but it morphed into something different in many cases. Like it or not the Mass is structured a certain way and always has been. For the supporters of Lifeteen to make whatever changes they want to it is in my opinion just plain wromg.

 

[Christy_Beth]

[Edited]Patrick What has been brought up isn’t about legalism. It is concern about what is happening in the mass. If it were a regular mass, the concern would be as valid. At my church, things have changed. It’s strange to me, but that’s mostly due to the fact that I’m a convert. But I can see the reasoning behind it. Like, when I started, the Eucharistic ministers would gather around the sides of the alter, and would be given communion to be taken along with the priest. Now, they wait at the bottom of the steps until after th priest has taken communion.

I’m not sure I explained that right. Or clearly. But I can see why this has happened. After Vatican 2, there were many churches that went overboard on becoming more “modern.” Being more “relevent.” That left a lot to be desired. Including going in a direction that God probably didn’t intend us to go.

 

[bpbasilphx]

There are only three ways a mass is invalid:

1. Invalid minister–that is, not a Priest or Bishop.
2. Invalid form–that is, altering the Prayer of Consecration so it no longer says, “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood.”
3. Invalid matter–that is NOT wheat bread or grape wine.

Of course, more than one of these can exist at the same time.

What is going on at the Life Teen masses you describe might be illicit and disorderly, but it does not invalidate them.

 

[PatrickJT914]

Okay, maybe Jesus didn’t specifically mention teenagers. But he did tell two parables, the rich young man and the Prodigal Son. While there isn’t any age mentioned it could be assumed that it covers teenagers. Besides aren’t teenagers in Jewish law considered adults, so they were lumped into that catergory. Remember Jesus in the temple at age 12 reading and commenting on the scriptures. By Jesus doing this he set an example for all teenagers. He showed the elders and teachers that
young people have important things to say and do. And they respectfully allowed him. Also remember that Jesus implied many things in his teachings. Furthermore not everything that Jesus said or did is written down.

I still don’t know what the problem is with Life Teen. If Pope John II
gave Life Teen Ministry his blessing in 1995 who are we to defy a Papal blessing. If it is so bad, then he would’ve admonished them instead. After all JP II was a Pope that spoke his mind.

Could you give me some specifics?

Before this thread gets too long, I think LT has been covered on another thread. I’m not 100% sure.

“Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity.” 1 Timothy 4:12

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Although I despise Life Teen mass, I sometimes have to attend if I am unable to attend any other mass that day. Although most of the past abuses have been corrected and brought into line with GIRM standards, some abuses still persist. The most obvious abuse that still persists at my Life Teen parish is the teens still gather around the altar before the consecration.

Since this abuse still persists, does that constitute that the mass is invalid?

Generally, no.

 

[PatrickJT914]

[Edited]Patrick, What has been brought up isn’t about legalism. It is concern about what is happening in the mass. If it were a regular mass, the concern would be as valid. At my church, things have changed. It’s strange to me, but that’s mostly due to the fact that I’m a convert. But I can see the reasoning behind it. Like, when I started, the Eucharistic ministers would gather around the sides of the alter, and would be given communion to be taken along with the priest. Now, they wait at the bottom of the steps until after th priest has taken communion.

I’m not sure I explained that right. Or clearly. But I can see why this has happened. After Vatican 2, there were many churches that went overboard on becoming more “modern.” Being more “relevent.” That left a lot to be desired. Including going in a direction that God probably didn’t intend us to go.

Christy Beth,
Before I start to answer it’s very late where I’m at. So I may not finish this post at this time. I’m getting very tired. But I will try to have some response, Okay? So where to begin. First on the question of legalism. People tend to go overboard with rules and regulations, especially when it comes to religion. We tend to put God in a box. Thinking we are more holy than Jesus. Good intentions but misguided, Jesus warned the Pharisees not to put too much emphasis on the letter of the Law, but on the spirit of the Law. In Jesus’ time the Pharisees had 613 laws. Today in our Catholic faith we have; Canon Law, GIRM, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Rubrics of the Mass,Vatican II documents,etc. That’s all I’m going to say at this time because it’s very,very late. So if I may, by your leave.

 

[Miserissima]

Generally, no.

I can see this thread easily becoming the thread of “dueling parables.” Let’s not do that, mmmkay? :coffeeread:

I am still ambivalent (torn in 2 directions about lifeteen Masses).

I will give only one example of a LifeTeen Mass (because it’s the one of the few I remember from school).

I left the altar feeling so close to Jesus that several of us wept tears of Joy to have Jesus present among us and in our bodies. Other teens seemed to see no difference between being so near the mensa they didn’t really seem to care.)…they were there as part of CCD or Conifrmation classes…not part of what we felt was going on. That was our sorrow for unintentionally excluding them.)

And finally, it was as if Jesus actually called us to His table, as if it as close as we could get to Him in this lifetime. We were the people of God, as it was meant to be. No one felt any disrespect…we all even genuflected/knelt when we were supposed to. But we were that much closer to Christ, which was the most beautiful thing of all.

We were the luckiest widows who touched the hem of His garment. Forgive me, but I don’t that see that awe and respect today. Maybe I should be more chartiabe and look harder.

Sometimes I sit in the back of the church as the publican, asking, “Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.” But I still remember that He loves me and I will never forget that one experimental moment when I saw the transubstantiation before my eyes.

I think of those who are in chapels and think how lucky they are to be so close to Him instead of those in a giant basilica.

Would I ever repeat the experince again? No, for now I see that it may have been disrespectful and acting as a lay common priest - so close to the hands wich hold the Euchsrist…of which there are none – EHMCs excluded). We are priests aof his people by our behavior, nt in these LifeTeen Masses. This right/gift is for priests alone.

But in the secret of my heart, I, was able to be a part of a Mass that brought me several feet from Christ - AT His feet at Calvary. And now I unerstand that that was not a right to me, but a gift bestowed on His priests alone. My honor is to be a part of the faithful congregation, and never presume to be so close to Him again until the next life: hell, purgatory, or thr beatific vision.

Sorry to ramble. Need more coffee.

 

[RichT]

Although I despise Life Teen mass, I sometimes have to attend if I am unable to attend any other mass that day. Although most of the past abuses have been corrected and brought into line with GIRM standards, some abuses still persist. The most obvious abuse that still persists at my Life Teen parish is the teens still gather around the altar before the consecration.

Since this abuse still persists, does that constitute that the mass is invalid?

Jim, I notice you are from Mesa, AZ. I attend a parish in Mesa. Maybe we go to the same parish. Either way, the teens in my parish are allowed to kneel in the area at the foot of the steps leading up to the sanctuary where the altar is, but certainly not around or anywhere near the altar. They have not been allowed to go up around the altar since the change was asked for some time ago. I know that most here still wont like even this, but they did comply with the requests made by Bishop Olmstead and Cardinal Arinze.

For those wondering about this, try to imagine this. Our church has about 12 feet between the front row and the steps leading up into the sactuary. The teens are allowed to kneel in this area. They do not approach the altar or even enter the sactuary. It would be no different than if we added two more rows of chairs, and as far as I know the Bishop is okay with this. Our Pastor is pretty careful about making sure he is doing nothing that the Bishop would have an issue with. Many here are familiar with Bishop Olmstead and he is known to be a by the book sort of Bishop.

Jim would you care to PM me and share what parish you attend?

 

[Scottgun]

It’s a case of illicit but valid.

I’m not going to rehash the substantial case against Life Teen’s practices other than point out that LT and its supporters fly apart like a helicopter with the stabilizing-rotor shot off at the slightest whiff of criticism. Where there’s smoke…

 

[Michael_Welter]

The Life Teen organization required their member parishes to stop allowing teens to gather around the altar many years ago. Any parish that is still doing that is in violation Life Teen guidelines and Church teaching. Although this doesn’t make the Mass invalid, it is clearly wrong, and should be addressed with the pastor.

 

[EB4304]

I’ve been under the impression that gathering in front of the table isn’t a problem especially if the Mass is being done with the traditional Ad Orientum consecration (priest facing “east” with the congregation). That’s the way they did it in the early Church.

 

[palmas85]

The Life Teen organization required their member parishes to stop allowing teens to gather around the altar many years ago. Any parish that is still doing that is in violation Life Teen guidelines and Church teaching. Although this doesn’t make the Mass invalid, it is clearly wrong, and should be addressed with the pastor.

And in true progressive fashion, much as the Jesuits did to both Popes Paul VI and John Paul II, they apparently paid lip service to the directives, swore immediate obedience and fealty and continued doing just as they wanted. . They can always count on someone to post that they have been advised and that any group still adhering to outlawed practices is operating outside of the groups good graces.

Which considering the number of parishes that seem to still be doing these things is a quite substantial percentage of those involved.

 

[palmas85]

I’ve been under the impression that gathering in front of the table isn’t a problem especially if the Mass is being done with the traditional Ad Orientum consecration (priest facing “east” with the congregation). That’s the way they did it in the early Church.

They did many things in the early church that are no longer condoned so lets not get into a relative discussion of whether or not something is good based on if it was done in antiquity. I could throw quite a few early church practices into the arena that would no doubt not be well received by most on this forum.

And no, gathering in the area of the altar is not OK even if the Priest is facing east. And as far as I know it is still considered an altar first and a table secondly. You don’t offer a sacrifice from a table do you?

 

[benedictgal]

While LifeTeen has some serious abuses, these aren’t of the category to make it invalid. However, from what I have gathered in reading this posts, the issue of gathering around the altar still remains, even though it has been expressly forbidden by Rome, as evidenced in this 2004 article from Adoremus:

Life Teen’s Liturgical Reform
Life Teen, the Phoenix-based Catholic youth organization, announced in July that it will cease its idiosyncratic liturgical practices. Monsignor Dale Fushek, Life Teen’s founder and former Vicar General under Bishop Thomas O’Brien, sent a letter July 2, saying that he confirms “our adherence to the new GIRM, and as always, our obedience to our own local Bishops”.

The letter asked that “all parishes that implement the LIFE TEEN model” make these changes. The teens will no longer surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer; they will cease saying, “The Mass never ends, it must be lived”, at the end of Mass; the rock-party atmosphere before Mass will be toned down to “make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration”; and they will “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair”.

“I am sure these issues will be hard on some parishes and teens”, Monsignor Fushek wrote. His letter said that Phoenix Bishop Thomas Olmsted met in Rome with Cardinal Francis Arinze, of the Congregation for Divine Worship, about Life Teen.

Furthermore, there is also the perpetual issue regarding the music. This was actually brought up by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist, where they noted that:

In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

So, there is where a good deal of the problem exists. Too much informality in the Mass does not creative an atmosphere of the divine.

 

[Michael_Welter]

The good and bad of Life Teen has been discussed on this forum as nauseum. So I suggest that, rather than turn this into another thread about the “problems” with Life Teen, we stick to the question posed by the OP. Since this question has been answered, I believe this thread should probably be closed.

 

[agapewolf]

While it is true that Lifeteen was to stop the practice of gathering around the altar, and they should have obeyed. (All 15+ parishes offically practicing lifeteen in my diocese did). I realize some may have not, unfortunately. Also, many parishes use the resources of LT, but do not offically use the program as a name, therefore LT is blamed for their faults as well.

The above quote from adoremus, as I have corrected this in the past as well, and will continue to do so as it is misleading is incorrect. there is a sentence that is added that was never ever spoken to LT. Adoremus sight is extremely biased in this instance and has cast their own thoughts in a ridiculous and very telling manner.

LT was offered an indult to continue the practice, which they turned down.

the 3 items of changes were this:

-no teens around the altar

-moment of silence before Mass begins

-“mass never ends” needs to stop to follow the missal.

No mention of “toning down” anything. No mention of “rock party atmosphere”. This is what adoremus added in their own bias.

 

[benedictgal]

While it is true that Lifeteen was to stop the practice of gathering around the altar, and they should have obeyed. (All 15+ parishes offically practicing lifeteen in my diocese did). I realize some may have not, unfortunately. Also, many parishes use the resources of LT, but do not offically use the program as a name, therefore LT is blamed for their faults as well.

The above quote from adoremus, as I have corrected this in the past as well, and will continue to do so as it is misleading is incorrect. there is a sentence that is added that was never ever spoken to LT. Adoremus sight is extremely biased in this instance and has cast their own thoughts in a ridiculous and very telling manner.

LT was offered an indult to continue the practice, which they turned down.

the 3 items of changes were this:

-no teens around the altar

-moment of silence before Mass begins

-“mass never ends” needs to stop to follow the missal.

No mention of “toning down” anything. No mention of “rock party atmosphere”. This is what adoremus added in their own bias.

I highly doubt that Cardinal Arinze would be so willing to grant an indult, giving the type of music that is performed at LifeTeen. Did you not at all read the Lineamata where it stated that even the Synod Fathers had some serious issues with the music at Youth Masses?

Agapewolf, you can make all of the arguments that you want, but the music at LifeTeen is certainly not appropriate for the Mass. It sounds like something that is better suited for a pop station than for the Mass. I have heard this kind of music performed during a Mass at our local monastary. It was most disconcerting and was certainly more banal than sacred.

Maybe the “rock party” atmosphere doesn’t exist in your parish, but, I would submit to you that it is prelevnt elsewhere.

It also seems that LifeTeen is going down the same road as the Neocatechumenal Movement. They were given a two-year moratorium, that was supposed to have expired in December, 2007, to cease and desist their strange liturgical practices. Unfortunately, from what I could tell on Holy Thursday (when visiting my Cathedral), they hadn’t quite gotten the message.

The bottom line is that the Mass is not anyone’s own personal property to do with as he pleases. It is something we receive from the Church, who, in turn, has received it from her Divine Spouse.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Once again, this thread is not about the music at Life Teen Masses. Can we please stick to the OP’s question?