Life Teen Mass

[Cat]

In response to benedictgal’s observation Pope Benedict XVI’x unhappy face during contemporary music–we can’t judge what someone is thinking by the exrpession on their face.

I used to frown or scowl when I am accompanying a musician because I was concentrating. Years ago people told me that it was disconcerting. They felt like I didn’t like their music.

So I have made an effort to keep a more neutral facial expression during music.

But I still tend to scowl during music when I am concentrating.

Perhaps Pope Benedict XVI has the same habit.

I appreciate the OP of this thread. Our Life Teen Mass is excellent, and many hundreds of teenagers attend and participate. We don’t approach the altar at all.

I think the reason that people would want to gather close to the altar is to be closer to Jesus, even as Mary, John, and the other Mary stayed close to the cross.

 

[benedictgal]

In response to benedictgal’s observation Pope Benedict XVI’x unhappy face during contemporary music–we can’t judge what someone is thinking by the exrpession on their face.

I used to frown or scowl when I am accompanying a musician because I was concentrating. Years ago people told me that it was disconcerting. They felt like I didn’t like their music.

So I have made an effort to keep a more neutral facial expression during music.

But I still tend to scowl during music when I am concentrating.

Perhaps Pope Benedict XVI has the same habit.

I appreciate the OP of this thread. Our Life Teen Mass is excellent, and many hundreds of teenagers attend and participate. We don’t approach the altar at all.

I think the reason that people would want to gather close to the altar is to be closer to Jesus, even as Mary, John, and the other Mary stayed close to the cross.

However, Cat, the Holy See frowned on the practice of having the kids gather around the altar and this was supposed to have stopped in 2004.

The problem is that a lot of this music is just not suitable for the Mass. This was what the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist noted in their working document:

In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

To which the Holy Father responded:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131

If anything, the Holy Father has been consistent. Whatever he wrote and subscribed to as Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict maintains. This certainly includes his commentary on sacred music. What he wrote in Sacramentum Caritatis is consistent with what he wrote in Spirit of the Liturgy and A New Song for the Lord.

Praise and Worship is better suited for non-liturgical settings like gatherings and prayer meetings. The Mass demands a certain type of music altogether different. What we need to teach the kids (and remind ourselves) is the fact that we aren’t the only ones present at the Mass. The veil between heaven and earth is lifted. The entire Church (MIlitant -us, Triumphant-the saints, and Sufering -souls in purgatory) come together. Furthermore, time and space are suspended. We are just as present at Calvary, at the Sacrifice, as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene. Mind you, they had to keep some distance from Our Lord.

Remember, too, what God told Moses when the Hebrew beheld the burning bush: Remove your sandals and come no further for this is sacred ground. The sanctuary is sacred space. Only those permitted by the GIRM and RS are allowed to approach, not anyone else. We should not take upon ourselves what does not correspond to us.

 

[Cat]

However, Cat, the Holy See frowned on the practice of having the kids gather around the altar and this was supposed to have stopped in 2004.

The problem is that a lot of this music is just not suitable for the Mass. This was what the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist noted in their working document:

To which the Holy Father responded:

If anything, the Holy Father has been consistent. Whatever he wrote and subscribed to as Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict maintains. This certainly includes his commentary on sacred music. What he wrote in Sacramentum Caritatis is consistent with what he wrote in Spirit of the Liturgy and A New Song for the Lord.

Praise and Worship is better suited for non-liturgical settings like gatherings and prayer meetings. The Mass demands a certain type of music altogether different. What we need to teach the kids (and remind ourselves) is the fact that we aren’t the only ones present at the Mass. The veil between heaven and earth is lifted. The entire Church (MIlitant -us, Triumphant-the saints, and Sufering -souls in purgatory) come together. Furthermore, time and space are suspended. We are just as present at Calvary, at the Sacrifice, as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene. Mind you, they had to keep some distance from Our Lord.

Remember, too, what God told Moses when the Hebrew beheld the burning bush: Remove your sandals and come no further for this is sacred ground. The sanctuary is sacred space. Only those permitted by the GIRM and RS are allowed to approach, not anyone else. We should not take upon ourselves what does not correspond to us.

Please point out to me in the quotes from the Popes where rock music in Mass is specifically forbidden. I can’t find that sentence.

And yes, I agree with you about the gathering around the altar. That’s not what these kids were doing, according to the OP. They were doing what all of us do–stopping short of the sanctuary and kneeling. I don’t think the GIRM forbids that.

 

[benedictgal]

Please point out to me in the quotes from the Popes where rock music in Mass is specifically forbidden. I can’t find that sentence.

And yes, I agree with you about the gathering around the altar. That’s not what these kids were doing, according to the OP. They were doing what all of us do–stopping short of the sanctuary and kneeling. I don’t think the GIRM forbids that.

First of all, Cat, I hope that you are feeling better. Having been felled by a migraine last Friday to the point of tears and near collapse, I can empathize with whatever it is that is ailing you.

Pope Benedict XVI, as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, wrote this about “rock music”. It is line with what Pope John Paul II wrote in the Chirograph and what the now Pope Benedict has written in Sacramentum Caritatis:

Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called “classical” music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter – and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

This aligns pretty straight with what both Supreme Pontiffs wrote. Heck, I like Van Halen and Duran Duran. I can even take a little Miley Cyrus (don’t quite understand Hannah Montana, but, that’s just me), Kelly Clarkson and even, in very light dosages, Madonna.

But, don’t insert techno, Yanni or Carpenter-style music or rock worship anthems into the Mass. It’s like salmon and chocolate on top of it. They don’t mix and the result is a bad, bad case of indigestion.

 

[VociMike]

Please point out to me in the quotes from the Popes where rock music in Mass is specifically forbidden. I can’t find that sentence.

It’s not specifically forbidden to give your children ice cream, but would you be a good parent if you fed them nothing but ice cream?

The real question to ask is why do these “grownups”, almost without exception, deny teens their sacred music patrimony, “a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art”? Why do they feed teens nothing but ice cream, week after week, year after year after year?

 

[Cat]

It’s not specifically forbidden to give your children ice cream, but would you be a good parent if you fed them nothing but ice cream?

The real question to ask is why do these “grownups”, almost without exception, deny teens their sacred music patrimony, “a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art”? Why do they feed teens nothing but ice cream, week after week, year after year after year?

There are plenty of options in our city for teenagers who want “traditional” Catholic music in Mass. Perhaps this isn’t the case in your city; perhaps all the Masses are “Life Teen.” If so, that’s a shame. But I’ll venture to say that there are plenty of Masses that never hear a guitar or a contemporary piece of music.

It is a wondeful thing that many teens haven’t rejected their faith and wandered away from the Church, but instead, faithfully attend and love these traditional Masses. And I agree that some teens will be fascinated by the ancient music of the Church.

But this isn’t the case in all Catholic families. You and I know that many teenagers walk away from the Catholic Church (and from Protestant churches as well).

These families are fighting for the very souls of their teenagers. Allow them to take up whatever weapons they can. If contemporary music, guitars, and keyboards draw their kids back into the safe fold of the Catholic Church, that’s a good thing, a wonderful thing. These teens have a lifetime to change their musical tastes and begin enjoying more traditional Catholic music. But they have to be in the Catholic Church, in Mass, to do this.

I can think of very few things more painful for a parent than to see their teenager reject their faith. How heartbreaking. Speaking as a parent (grown children), I would say that as long as my teenagers kept willingly coming to Mass and participating, I would happily feed them ice cream. Ice cream in the Catholic Church Mass sure beats the pablum down the road at the non-Catholic megachurch, and both of those beat the starvation diet of a teenager who doesn’t attend any church. When they get a little older, they can add the brocolli and apples and stop eating so much ice cream.

Based on what our Youth Directors in our parish report, I DO believe that the rock music (even if it’s geezer rock), guitars, and keyboards ARE effective in bringing youth to Mass. Based on what I have seen with my own eyes in my city, the TLM is NOT effective in bringing youth to Mass.

 

[ibkc]

Based on what I have seen with my own eyes in my city, the TLM is NOT effective in bringing youth to Mass.

Oh - have you been attending a TLM recently?

 

[Jimsdun]

The Mass is NOT entertainment.

The Mass is NOT entertainment.

The Mass is NOT entertainment.

LifeTeen -type mass cheapens the mass until it is pure banality.

What happens when these teenagers become adults? and the mass is no longer all about them. I read one study that Life Teen did a survey follow up on college students who had been through Life Teen. 75% of them no longer participate in mass.

My guess is that they have defected to Protestant “Praise and Worship” type services, since they are what Life Teen masses most resemble.

That is no surprise, since Life Teen’s founder is now a Protestant “Praise and Worship” pastor. I’ll bet that the majoriity of Fushek’s congregants are Life Teen alumni.
**
In other words, Life Teen is a Protestant factory.**

 

[Cat]

benedictgal, there is danger when laypeople interpret the documents of the Church.

In the quote that you posted, I do not read it to say that “Rock music is not appropriate for the Mass.” I read it to say that “Rock, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship.”

This says nothing about rock music in Mass or even at Catholic/religious festivals like World Youth Day. This passage, IMO, is talking about rock music at rock festivals, secular rock music. The Holy Father mentions rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects–all characteristics of a secular rock concert, not of a Mass (except the TLM).

Of course secular rock is in opposition to Christian worship, and of course, we don’t bring secular songs into the Mass. But I see no forbidding of using this musical style in the Mass, as long as the music is of the Holy Spirit and in keeping with the character and dignity of the Holy Mass.

So which of us is wrong in our interpretation? Thank goodness that’s what the priests and bishop are here for!

 

[VociMike]

There are plenty of options in our city for teenagers who want “traditional” Catholic music in Mass. Perhaps this isn’t the case in your city; perhaps all the Masses are “Life Teen.” If so, that’s a shame. But I’ll venture to say that there are plenty of Masses that never hear a guitar or a contemporary piece of music.

Yes, and my children can always get healthy food from their aunts and uncles and the school cafeteria, so I’ll just keep feeding them nothing but ice cream. Makes sense, right?

It is a wondeful thing that many teens haven’t rejected their faith and wandered away from the Church, but instead, faithfully attend and love these traditional Masses. And I agree that some teens will be fascinated by the ancient music of the Church.

But this isn’t the case in all Catholic families. You and I know that many teenagers walk away from the Catholic Church (and from Protestant churches as well).

Since when is Life Teen directed solely at teens in danger of losing their faith? I sure never heard that!

Besides, how many teens have lost their faith in part because of “teen Masses” and the inevitable condescension such Masses imply (to many teens - that much is undeniable)? Anybody done that study?

I want to see a study about how many teens have lost their faith or had their faith diminished by the typical “teen this” and “teen that” ministries. Let the facts speak for themselves.

 

[agapewolf]

What happens when these teenagers become adults? and the mass is no longer all about them. I read one study that Life Teen did a survey follow up on college students who had been through Life Teen. 75% of them no longer participate in mass.

My guess is that they have defected to Protestant “Praise and Worship” type services, since they are what Life Teen masses most resemble.

**
In other words, Life Teen is a Protestant factory.**

This is untrue. In my city, teens have gone on to orders, the seminaries, become priests, been the leaders in the newman centers bringing back orthodoxy, and then gone on to serve the church in many capacities.

Lifeteen has helped me to love Mass…any kind…I love going to a quiet daily mass during the week, I love going to the quiet adoration chapel…as well as a LT mass and adoration with music.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal, there is danger when laypeople interpret the documents of the Church.

In the quote that you posted, I do not read it to say that “Rock music is not appropriate for the Mass.” I read it to say that “Rock, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship.”

This says nothing about rock music in Mass or even at Catholic/religious festivals like World Youth Day. This passage, IMO, is talking about rock music at rock festivals, secular rock music. The Holy Father mentions rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects–all characteristics of a secular rock concert, not of a Mass (except the TLM).

Of course secular rock is in opposition to Christian worship, and of course, we don’t bring secular songs into the Mass. But I see no forbidding of using this musical style in the Mass, as long as the music is of the Holy Spirit and in keeping with the character and dignity of the Holy Mass.

So which of us is wrong in our interpretation? Thank goodness that’s what the priests and bishop are here for!

Actually, the Holy Father has interpreted that in his document Sacramentum Caritatis where he notes that “one song is not as good as another as far as the liturgy is concerned.”

The problem is that this kind of music is not at all conducive to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It works for Protestant services because all of these ecclesial communities have is the Word and nothing else. They need something to augment the reading of Scipture and the preaching. They do not have the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

The Church, on the other hand, who is the New Israel, has both the Word and the Sacrifice. It is the complete form of worship that was deeded to us by no less than Jesus, Himself.

You say that you trust the bishops in their interpretations. Then, what say you about what the very successors to the apostles themselves indicated in the Lineamata on the Synod on the Eucharis? They identified in very clear and direct language that the music used at Youth Masses was problematic. They even went so far as to include it as one of the “shadows” darkening the liturgy.

Their comments and observations were affirmed by Pope Benedict in Sacramentum Caritatis. Even before that, Pope John Paul II, echoing what Pope St. Pius X wrote on Sacred Music, noted, along with Pope Paul VI that not all is fit to cross the liturgical threshhold when it comes to music. Those are Pope Paul’s words, not mine.

The same problems that plagued the liturgy during the time of Pope St. Pius X are evident in today’s liturgy. The issue of music regurgitates itself. Over one hundred years ago, the problem revolved around opera and theatrics. In 2008, it revolves around pop, rock and the cult of the banal, as Pope Benedict termed it in his book, “The Spirit of the Liturgy.”

The darker issue is that while these documents and books are out for everyone to see, publishing houses have been tone deaf to their words and will continue to spew out their tripe with the tagline of “singing a new Church into being”, as the author of The Hidden Hand behind Bad Church Music aptly describes it.

Young people need to be exposed to the sacred and the beautiful. Constantly shoveling Protestant Praise and Worship music down their throats isn’t the way to go. These songs do not inspire nor do they reinforce sound Catholic doctrine. Through this music, we are giving God rhinestones instead of diamonds.

The other major red flag here is that the music celebrates the community. It talks about how wonderful we are and what we are doing for God, or in some cases, what “I” am doing. The older, ancient hymns that form part of the Church’s sacred treasury focus on God. They also remind us of our condition as sinners. The newer stuff is “I’m okay; you’re okay.” That’s good for a therapy session, but, not for the Mass.

I went through the initial stages of this “teen” movement as a young adult. For me, there was something intrinsically wrong with the kind of music we were having at the University Catholic Center. It had no substance and after two weeks, I shook the dust off my feet and went back to my off-campus parish.

When I returned home and went to Mass at the Monastery, I was shocked to see a teen band complete with drums and electric guitars “perform” at Mass. This was very disconcerting and was at complete odds with the Mass and its sublime beauty. For me, this was not what the Church prescribed for music. It might be okay for the arena, but, not for the Mass. What was even worse was that this kind of banality had even infiltrated my alma mater. A priest friend of mine dreads celebrating Mass there. He said that the music is horrible and not at all conducive to prayer, at all.

I told him that, from what I had experienced, I wouldn’t be surprised if the statue of St. John Bosco came to life and told the nuns to stop the music. St. John Bosco was all about getting the kids to the Faith and to pray. He had a great deal to say about the Mass; however, he never took any liberties with the Mass and encouraged fidelity. Hearing my alma mater do what they are doing breaks my heart. This is not what we should be handing down to the next generation.

 

[Jimsdun]

Teen #1: Hey, dude, we’re graduating next week
Teen #2: Yeah dude. That means no more Life Teen Mass, dude.
#1 Yeah dude. Bummer. We grown up, dude.
#2 Yeah dude… That means that mass isn’t all about US anymore.

#1 So, dude, what we gonna do now?
#2.Don’t know.
#1 I wonder, dude. Is there a such thing as a “LifeCollege mass?”
#2. If there’s a Newman Center at your college. What if there isn’t?
#1 And when we graduate college. Is there a “LifeTwenties”
#2 And a “LifeThirties” and a “LifeForties” LOL dude.
#1 If there is no mass that is centered around ***US ***anymore, why bother going to mass at all?
#2 For the free entertainment.
#1. Y’know. Maybe I’ll just become a born again Jesus Freak and go to a nondenominational church.There just as cool. And the music’s the same
#2 Yer right. Might be hard going to a regular mass again. I don’t remember the Confiteor. I don’t remember how to genuflect. And I haven’t been to Confession for 3 years. I don’t even remember how to do it. Might as well be a born again. Y’know, Once saved, always saved.
#1 Aack! I don’t remember how to dress for a regular mass. I prolly won’t be able to come to mass in my Megadeth T-shirt, shorts and flip flops.
#2. And they don’t end with “The mass never ends, it must be lived.” I’m embarassed that I don’t remember how a regular mass closes."

 

[Zabby]

I’m a youth who attends a Life Teen Mass every week, and I enjoy it, but just to put my two cents in, if the parish is making you think that the Mass is about you they’re doing something wrong. The Mass has been, and will always be about the Word and the Eucharist. If your Life Teen program isn’t leading you to that conclusion then they need to check themselves.

Jimsdun The little chat that you just posed is pretty dis-hearting to me. If your Life Teen program isn’t bringing you to the fullness of your Catholic faith, and you’d consider switching denominations just because you can’t go to a Life Teen Mass anymore, your there is something wrong with your program. When I went with my youth group up to see the Pope in New York City back in April, we purposefully stopped by St. Patrick’s Cathedral (it is so beautiful) and had a Mass just to try to expose us to different things. I found it beautiful. Yes, it had a different flavor then the Life Teen mass that I’m used to, but that didn’t make it bad.

The main purpose of the Life Teen Mass in my parish is mostly to get Teens more involved in the Mass then ever. We get as many teen extraordinary ministers as we can. We have teen ushers, teen lectors, teen gift-bearers, and recently, we’ve have some teens get involved with planing the Liturgy. It pretty much means that you get a group of 4 or 5 teens together with a priest, of course, and go through, pick the music, the theme, the prayer of the faithful, and all those parts of the Mass that vary from week to week.

Yes, the music does involve a band, but it’s mostly tame, and really thought-provoking. It’s a different style, but the same ideas are touched on that have been going around since the first psalms were written.

Young people need to be exposed to the sacred and the beautiful. Constantly shoveling Protestant Praise and Worship music down their throats isn’t the way to go. These songs do not inspire nor do they reinforce sound Catholic doctrine. Through this music, we are giving God rhinestones instead of diamonds.

Also, you to benedictgal if your Life Teen program isn’t using Catholic Praise and Worship (surprisingly it exists, and there’s a lot of it), well, I don’t know why they wouldn’t. We’ve got plenty of it. Matt Maher is an example. He writes modern Catholic music. He uses Transubstantiation in a song. How much better does it get then that?

 

[jmcrae]

The main purpose of the Life Teen Mass in my parish is mostly to get Teens more involved in the Mass then ever. We get as many teen extraordinary ministers as we can. We have teen ushers, teen lectors, teen gift-bearers, and recently, we’ve have some teens get involved with planing the Liturgy. It pretty much means that you get a group of 4 or 5 teens together with a priest, of course, and go through, pick the music, the theme, the prayer of the faithful, and all those parts of the Mass that vary from week to week.

What’s going to happen to these kids when the priest shortage is solved, and they are no longer allowed to do these things?

Is anyone telling them that as few as possible lay people should be doing these things, and to remember, if a priest or deacon is available, give up your place to him to do it? Or are they thinking that this is how lay people are supposed to be involved at Mass?

How lay people are actually supposed to be involved at Mass is by joining their hearts and minds to those of the priests who are saying the Mass, doing the readings, and distributing Holy Communion. Has anyone told them how important this role is?

 

[VociMike]

…if your Life Teen program isn’t using Catholic Praise and Worship (surprisingly it exists, and there’s a lot of it), well, I don’t know why they wouldn’t. We’ve got plenty of it. Matt Maher is an example. He writes modern Catholic music. He uses Transubstantiation in a song. How much better does it get then that?

Hi Zabby and welcome.

How much better does it get than that? Well, you may be surprised to know, it can get a lot better. Since you’re new here, I’ll briefly summarize the ideal for Catholic liturgical music.

-Sing the actual texts of the Mass, rather than other texts. Thus no hymn or P&W song is the ideal. Whether written in 1700 or 2000, they all fall short of the ideal.

-The music should be holy (set apart for God), true art and universal

-Because it so perfectly incorporates the above two ideals, Gregorian chant is taught by the Church to be the song proper to the Roman Rite, and is to be given pride of place. Chant is also taught to be the supreme model and permanent standard against which all other compositions are to be judged.

Now, despite what some may claim here, nobody is calling for all Gregorian chant, all the time. The Church certainly doesn’t call for that, and neither should anybody else. But I think it’s fair to ask, how many Life Teen programs reach for these ideals? How many sing the actual texts of the Mass? How many incorporate music that is holy, true art and universal? How many treat Gregorian chant as proper to the Roman Rite, and as deserving pride of place?

I think these are fair questions to ask in light of Church teaching. What do you think?

 

[Zabby]

What’s going to happen to these kids when the priest shortage is solved, and they are no longer allowed to do these things?

Is anyone telling them that as few as possible lay people should be doing these things, and to remember, if a priest or deacon is available, give up your place to him to do it? Or are they thinking that this is how lay people are supposed to be involved at Mass?

How lay people are actually supposed to be involved at Mass is by joining their hearts and minds to those of the priests who are saying the Mass, doing the readings, and distributing Holy Communion. Has anyone told them how important this role is?

How does the priest shortage effect lectors or ushers or even extraordinary ministers? I really don’t think that we’re ever going to have enough enough priests (at least not in my generation) to get by with only priests distributing the Eucharist.

In my parish we actually have deacons and a fair number of priests (we’re rather large), but you’re still going to need extraordinary ministers, you’re still going to need ushers and lectors. I’ve never heard of a priest ushering. I understand the liturgical planing is something special, but I believe it’s to give us a greater respect for the mass and how much planing goes into it. How greatly things different aspects effect it, and other things. That’s pretty much what they told us on the first meeting, and we all understand that it’s not normal to be this involved, but that it’s a grace that we can have now to help us understand everything.

Hi Zabby and welcome.

How much better does it get than that? Well, you may be surprised to know, it can get a lot better. Since you’re new here, I’ll briefly summarize the ideal for Catholic liturgical music.

-Sing the actual texts of the Mass, rather than other texts. Thus no hymn or P&W song is the ideal. Whether written in 1700 or 2000, they all fall short of the ideal.

-The music should be holy (set apart for God), true art and universal

-Because it so perfectly incorporates the above two ideals, Gregorian chant is taught by the Church to be the song proper to the Roman Rite, and is to be given pride of place. Chant is also taught to be the supreme model and permanent standard against which all other compositions are to be judged.

Now, despite what some may claim here, nobody is calling for all Gregorian chant, all the time. The Church certainly doesn’t call for that, and neither should anybody else. But I think it’s fair to ask, how many Life Teen programs reach for these ideals? How many sing the actual texts of the Mass? How many incorporate music that is holy, true art and universal? How many treat Gregorian chant as proper to the Roman Rite, and as deserving pride of place?

I think these are fair questions to ask in light of Church teaching. What do you think?

Your post though very informative was also slight confusing. I’m guessing from my own lack of knowledge of the Gregorian chant. First off I was asking how it got better then that for P&W music, not for litergical music.

I’m kind of confused when you said “Sing the actual texts of the Mass, rather than other texts” I’m not quite sure what you mean.

I’m also slightly confused on what you mean by “The music should be holy (set apart for God), true art and universal” Are you saying that it should be universal as in applicable to everyone or universal as in enjoyable to everyone, and I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean by set apart for God… perhaps you could clear that up. Thanks and then I’ll get around to your questions. I just want to make sure I know what I’m talking about first.

 

[agapewolf]

What’s going to happen to these kids when the priest shortage is solved, and they are no longer allowed to do these things?

Is anyone telling them that as few as possible lay people should be doing these things, and to remember, if a priest or deacon is available, give up your place to him to do it? Or are they thinking that this is how lay people are supposed to be involved at Mass?

How lay people are actually supposed to be involved at Mass is by joining their hearts and minds to those of the priests who are saying the Mass, doing the readings, and distributing Holy Communion. Has anyone told them how important this role is?

oh geez, you can say the same thing about adults who do the jobs as well. You can’t blame a youth program for involving youth the same way adults are involved too.

 

[VociMike]

Your post though very informative was also slight confusing. I’m guessing from my own lack of knowledge of the Gregorian chant. First off I was asking how it got better then that for P&W music, not for litergical music.

OK, but why limit the discussion to P&W music? Why assume that’s the only style that should be offered to teens?

I’m kind of confused when you said “Sing the actual texts of the Mass, rather than other texts” I’m not quite sure what you mean.

Every Mass of the year (actually, of the three year cycle) has specific texts associated with it. There is the Introit (as opposed to a generic “gathering song”), the Gradual (between the first two readings), the Alleluia, the Offertorio or Offertory (as opposed to a generic “offertory song”), and the Communio or Communion (as opposed to a generic “communion song”). The ideal is that these particular texts should be sung (in whatever language) rather than generic hymns or songs.

I’m also slightly confused on what you mean by “The music should be holy (set apart for God), true art and universal” Are you saying that it should be universal as in applicable to everyone or universal as in enjoyable to everyone, and I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean by set apart for God… perhaps you could clear that up.

I was citing the formula first offered by Pope Pius X in 1903, and reaffirmed by Pope John Paul II in 2003.

To understand what might be meant by “universal”, maybe the best approach is to contrast that with “local” or “ephemeral”, something here today and gone tomorrow. But you really should read the Church documents to have a better understanding of what they’re getting at. What you most need to understand is that over and over the Church tells us that there are ways to judge the suitability of music for the liturgy, and that by those standards some songs are very suitable, some less suitable and some not very suitable at all.

As for “set apart for God” that’s just a definition of “holy”. For example, if a parish sang the “Lord Have Mercy” to the tune of “Happy Birthday” that would be less holy, less set apart for God, than if they used a tune or style less obviously secular - even though the words are the same in both cases.

Thanks and then I’ll get around to your questions. I just want to make sure I know what I’m talking about first.

 

[jmcrae]

How does the priest shortage effect lectors or ushers or even extraordinary ministers? I really don’t think that we’re ever going to have enough enough priests (at least not in my generation) to get by with only priests distributing the Eucharist.

In my home parish, we are already getting rid of the Extaordinary Ministers, whenever we have at least two priests and one deacon present.

In my parish we actually have deacons and a fair number of priests (we’re rather large), but you’re still going to need extraordinary ministers,

Not if all are present, and none of them sit down during the distribution of the Eucharist.

you’re still going to need ushers and lectors.

When the seminaries fill up, the seminarians will do these jobs.

I understand the liturgical planing is something special, but I believe it’s to give us a greater respect for the mass and how much planing goes into it. How greatly things different aspects effect it, and other things. That’s pretty much what they told us on the first meeting, and we all understand that it’s not normal to be this involved, but that it’s a grace that we can have now to help us understand everything.

Don’t you make a study of these things in Catholic school?

I’m kind of confused when you said “Sing the actual texts of the Mass, rather than other texts” I’m not quite sure what you mean.

There are Mass texts for the opening antiphon, Communion antiphon, and recessional antiphon, so, instead of having hymns at those times, you would just have the congregation chant the antiphons.

I’m also slightly confused on what you mean by “The music should be holy (set apart for God), true art and universal”

It should meet the standards of professional artists from all time and all places (that is, it should image reality as closely as possible and make it clearly understandable to the hearers), and it should be oriented towards worship of God.

With regard to artistic realism, for example, a verse that says “We worship thee, O God” would be preferable to a verse that says, “I am Jesus, come follow me,” since obviously nobody singing those words is actually Jesus (thus, lacks artistic realism) - but it is realistic and desirable to think of ourselves as worshipping God.

The tune and instruments used should also be fitting - someone passing by on the sidewalk outside the church, who can hear the music but not the words, should not be able to think that anything other than a Mass is taking place - if he could mistake it for a rock concert, or think that a bunch of kids are dropping dishes in the kitchen, then it’s also not suitable.