Life Teen Mass

[VociMike]

The tune and instruments used should also be fitting - someone passing by on the sidewalk outside the church, who can hear the music but not the words, should not be able to think that anything other than a Mass is taking place - if he could mistake it for a rock concert, or think that a bunch of kids are dropping dishes in the kitchen, then it’s also not suitable.

I think this is a good test. If one hears the music but not the words, does one think “sacred” or does one think “secular”?

It’s important to remember that the Church teaches that not every song is as good as another for the liturgy, not just that not every lyric is as good as another. That is to say, it’s not enough to just have the right lyrics. A song is both lyrics and music, and the music is to be judged for suitability every bit as much as the lyrics.

 

[Zabby]

OK, but why limit the discussion to P&W music? Why assume that’s the only style that should be offered to teens?

I don’t really, I thought that was just the direction that we were already headed in.

In my home parish, we are already getting rid of the Extaordinary Ministers, whenever we have at least two priests and one deacon present.

Two priests and one deacon wouldn’t be enough to distribute the Eucharist at my Parish.

Not if all are present, and none of them sit down during the distribution of the Eucharist.

We don’t have more then one priest and one deacon at any mass. The rest are all busy doing things…

When the seminaries fill up, the seminarians will do these jobs.

Err… I go to a La Salette Missionary Church… I highly down their would be seminarians coming around to do these jobs when we are very far from a La Salette seminary.

Don’t you make a study of these things in Catholic school?

I go to public school and so do most of the kids that attend my church.

There are Mass texts for the opening antiphon, Communion antiphon, and recessional antiphon, so, instead of having hymns at those times, you would just have the congregation chant the antiphons.

Ah, how interesting… Looks like I do have a lot of research to do on liturgical music.

It should meet the standards of professional artists from all time and all places (that is, it should image reality as closely as possible and make it clearly understandable to the hearers), and it should be oriented towards worship of God.

With regard to artistic realism, for example, a verse that says “We worship thee, O God” would be preferable to a verse that says, “I am Jesus, come follow me,” since obviously nobody singing those words is actually Jesus (thus, lacks artistic realism) - but it is realistic and desirable to think of ourselves as worshipping God.

The tune and instruments used should also be fitting - someone passing by on the sidewalk outside the church, who can hear the music but not the words, should not be able to think that anything other than a Mass is taking place - if he could mistake it for a rock concert, or think that a bunch of kids are dropping dishes in the kitchen, then it’s also not suitable.

Well, as I said before, most of the music we play during the liturgy is pretty tame. I don’t see how you could mistake a lot of the songs for a rock concert because most of them don’t really have that rock feel, and is always focused around the worship of God. I do think that if you heard the tune you might think secular, but that all depends on a person. If I may, would you guys prefer it if I linked up a typical song that we would use?

 

[benedictgal]

There are some red flags with regard to having the teens plan the Mass. First of all, as I undertand it and have been taught, the Mass does not belong to one particular group. It belongs to the Universal Church

Furthermore, the fact that the young persno pesting didn’t know about the parts of the Mass is a clear sign that something is amiss. Before unleashing planning duties on anyone, some serious preparation work needs to happen. You need to explain the parts of the Mass, albeit the Mass itself, using authorittative documents from the Holy See. Give the kids a chance to understand the eseence of the Mass so that they can get a better handle. Catechesis needs to play a huge role in all of this, and that catechesis must come from the documents themselves, not from someone’s questionable interpretation of them.

In my case, I was in my early 20s when I got involved. But, that involvment came after immersion in the GIRM and the other documents.

To add to VociMike’s explanation, the actual texts of the Mass include the parts of the Mass such as the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Gospel Acclamation, the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy), the Memorial Acclamation, the Great Amen and the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God). The settings for the parts of the Mass must conform to what is written in the Roman Missal, as directed by Liturgicam Authenticam. Therefore, creative license from both the publisher and the composer should not be employed.

It’s interesting to note that we don’t allow kids to drive unless they’ve passed their written test (and, that is with a learner’s permit). We place restrictions on them even after they’ve passed their driving test because of safety. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is more important than driving. We need to exercise just as much care there, moreso because it is the most important act of worship that we can render to the Triune God.

I don’t know the age of the young poster, but, perhaps, it would do this young person some good to read what the Church says:

adoremus.org/0204OnSacredMusic.html

Share this document with your pastor and reflect on what Pope John Paul II, the great friend of youth, said about music.

It is sad to observe that the kids aren’t even told about their sacred heritage (Gregorian Chant). As I read them, the documents from the Second Vatican Council and beyond constantly remind us that Chant has the pride of place in the Mass.

Something else to consider: the liturgy is the “work of the people”. The young poster talks about the teens serving as ushers, altar servers and readers. That’s all well and good. But, remember the Gospel for the Feast of St. Martha. St. Martha was busy trying to be hospitable to Christ while her sister, St. Mary, sat at the Lord’s feet. Jesus told Martha that one thing was important: Mary was doing just what He wanted her to do. The most important thing that our Lord requires of us is that we just “be.” Be present at the Mass. Pray the Mass. Immerse yourself in the mysteries that are unfolding before you. That is your active participation in the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[japhy]

How does the priest shortage effect lectors or ushers or even extraordinary ministers? I really don’t think that we’re ever going to have enough enough priests (at least not in my generation) to get by with only priests distributing the Eucharist.

If there are enough priests, deacons, and instituted acolytes, there is no need for further deputed extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. It is not allowed for an ordinary minister of Holy Communion (priest or deacon) to “forfeit” his role to an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion; the Church goes so far as to call such behavior “reprehensible”.

Instituted lectors (males who are deputed for this ministry) are preferable to readers. Deacons are preferable to instituted lectors and readers for the Prayer of the Faithful (General Intercessions). Deacons are even preferable to readers (but not instituted lectors) for the First and Second Readings.

Let the laity be ushers, certainly. Let them process the offerings up during the offertory procession. Let them join the choir! But the role of the laity at the Mass is not primarily one of serving in various ministries; that is not what “full, conscious, active participation” is.

I’m kind of confused when you said “Sing the actual texts of the Mass, rather than other texts” I’m not quite sure what you mean.

You know the opening hymn, the offertory hymn, and the communion hymn you sing at Mass? They’re not the “actual texts of the Mass”. Every celebration of the Mass has “antiphons” proper to it. For example, the Third Sunday of Advent is called “Gaudete Sunday”, because its proper entrance antiphon begins with the word gaudete: “Gaudete in Domino semper: iterum dico, gaudete.” Each Mass has a proper introit (entrance) antiphon, gradual psalm (where the Responsorial Psalm is), alleluia verse (not the same verse week after week!), offertory antiphon, and communion antiphon. Those are the texts of the Mass. As great as hymns are, they’re additions or substitutions to the texts of the Mass.

It also means not using “We remember how you loved us…” as the Memorial Acclamation, since that’s not one of the approved Memorial Acclamations.

It also means singing the Mass as much as possible. We shouldn’t sing at Mass, we should sing the Mass. We should sing (or chant) our responses to the priest (who should be singing or chanting his words). “The Lo-ord be with you. / And also with you. / Li-ift u-up your hea-arts. / We li-ift them up to the Lo-ord. / Let us give thanks to the Lo-ord our God. / It is right to give Him tha-anks and prai-aise.” (I bet a couple readers here know exactly what chant tune I’ve got in mind!)

Are you saying that it should be universal as in applicable to everyone or universal as in enjoyable to everyone, and I’m having a hard time understanding what you mean by set apart for God… perhaps you could clear that up.

I’ll let Pope St. Pius X explain it:
2. Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality.

It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it.

It must be true art, for otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds.

But it must, at the same time, be universal in the sense that while every nation is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them.
Taking the tune to some song you heard on the Billboard Top 20 Hits on the radio and putting the words of “Lamb of God” or “Holy, Holy, Holy” to it is not an example of music that is holy, set apart for God. Most Contemporary Christian Music is simply just pop music with religious words. That’s not the Church’s idea of sacred music!

 

[Zabby]

There are some red flags with regard to having the teens plan the Mass. First of all, as I undertand it and have been taught, the Mass does not belong to one particular group. It belongs to the Universal Church

Furthermore, the fact that the young persno pesting didn’t know about the parts of the Mass is a clear sign that something is amiss. Before unleashing planning duties on anyone, some serious preparation work needs to happen. You need to explain the parts of the Mass, albeit the Mass itself, using authorittative documents from the Holy See. Give the kids a chance to understand the eseence of the Mass so that they can get a better handle. Catechesis needs to play a huge role in all of this, and that catechesis must come from the documents themselves, not from someone’s questionable interpretation of them.

In my case, I was in my early 20s when I got involved. But, that involvment came after immersion in the GIRM and the other documents.

To add to VociMike’s explanation, the actual texts of the Mass include the parts of the Mass such as the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Gospel Acclamation, the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy), the Memorial Acclamation, the Great Amen and the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God). The settings for the parts of the Mass must conform to what is written in the Roman Missal, as directed by Liturgicam Authenticam. Therefore, creative license from both the publisher and the composer should not be employed.

It’s interesting to note that we don’t allow kids to drive unless they’ve passed their written test (and, that is with a learner’s permit). We place restrictions on them even after they’ve passed their driving test because of safety. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is more important than driving. We need to exercise just as much care there, moreso because it is the most important act of worship that we can render to the Triune God.

Perhaps you miss-understood me when I said let us plan a mass. You see, we’re set in there with our training wheels on. Under full supervision of a priest we’re given the work-sheet like things where they have lists of ‘suggestions’ that we essentially choose from, and talk about and choose which we believe is best. It’s not like they’ve locked us in the room and said, “Go plan a mass”

I don’t know the age of the young poster, but, perhaps, it would do this young person some good to read what the Church says:

adoremus.org/0204OnSacredMusic.html

Share this document with your pastor and reflect on what Pope John Paul II, the great friend of youth, said about music.

I’m not quite sure what my age has to do with anything, but I shall get right on that.

It is sad to observe that the kids aren’t even told about their sacred heritage (Gregorian Chant). As I read them, the documents from the Second Vatican Council and beyond constantly remind us that Chant has the pride of place in the Mass.

Just to put this in here, that there really is no place for the Gregorian Chant in the average (non-Catholic school) education. That’s why I’m in places like here to understand these things. I’d like to search out this kind of knowledge, I just do no know where…

Something else to consider: the liturgy is the “work of the people”. The young poster talks about the teens serving as ushers, altar servers and readers. That’s all well and good. But, remember the Gospel for the Feast of St. Martha. St. Martha was busy trying to be hospitable to Christ while her sister, St. Mary, sat at the Lord’s feet. Jesus told Martha that one thing was important: Mary was doing just what He wanted her to do. The most important thing that our Lord requires of us is that we just “be.” Be present at the Mass. Pray the Mass. Immerse yourself in the mysteries that are unfolding before you. That is your active participation in the Holy Sacrifice.

I get what you’re saying, but I almost always usher during the Mass, and I’ve never had it take away from being in his prescience. It doesn’t take long. It’s not hard, and I can still pray and focus myself as I do it.

If there are enough priests, deacons, and instituted acolytes, there is no need for further deputed extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. It is not allowed for an ordinary minister of Holy Communion (priest or deacon) to “forfeit” his role to an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion; the Church goes so far as to call such behavior “reprehensible”.

When was I ever implying/saying this? But when you need to have 12 people to distribute the Eucharist and there is only one priest and one deacon, what are you going to do?

Instituted lectors (males who are deputed for this ministry) are preferable to readers. Deacons are preferable to instituted lectors and readers for the Prayer of the Faithful (General Intercessions). Deacons are even preferable to readers (but not instituted lectors) for the First and Second Readings.

Are you implying that the teens we have do reading aren’t trained and ready to do it? We pretty much have a set that we go to and they are as much deputed as any other Instituted lector. Unless you’re telling me that this involves an act of the church…

It also means singing the Mass as much as possible. We shouldn’t sing at Mass, we should sing the Mass. We should sing (or chant) our responses to the priest (who should be singing or chanting his words). “The Lo-ord be with you. / And also with you. / Li-ift u-up your hea-arts. / We li-ift them up to the Lo-ord. / Let us give thanks to the Lo-ord our God. / It is right to give Him tha-anks and prai-aise.” (I bet a couple readers here know exactly what chant tune I’ve got in mind!)

Including me . It’s really up to the priest whether or not to do that. I mean going to a Life Teen Mass I’ve heard it chanted and I’ve heard it not. It depends on the the priest not the mass style.

Taking the tune to some song you heard on the Billboard Top 20 Hits on the radio and putting the words of “Lamb of God” or “Holy, Holy, Holy” to it is not an example of music that is holy, set apart for God. Most Contemporary Christian Music is simply just pop music with religious words. That’s not the Church’s idea of sacred music!

And you’re telling me that any other music wasn’t taken from secular influences? The only thing that wouldn’t be is the Chants that you guys have informed me of, and even if I didn’t go to a Life Teen mass, I would not have access to a TLM, at least not at my parish.

 

[japhy]

Just to put this in here, that there really is no place for the Gregorian Chant in the average (non-Catholic school) education.

Which is why the Church’s pastors should find other ways to teach the faithful about things like Gregorian Chant.

How does the priest shortage effect

lectors or ushers or even extraordinary ministers? I really don’t think that we’re ever going to have enough enough priests (at least not in my generation) to get by with only priests distributing the Eucharist.If there are enough priests, deacons, and instituted acolytes, there is no need for further deputed extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. It is not allowed for an ordinary minister of Holy Communion (priest or deacon) to “forfeit” his role to an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion; the Church goes so far as to call such behavior “reprehensible”.
When was I ever implying/saying this? But when you need to have 12 people to distribute the Eucharist and there is only one priest and one deacon, what are you going to do?

You didn’t say it, but I thought it could be implied. At my parish, we have 6 people distributing Communion: our pastor (our only priest) and 5 others (all EMHCs), 4 people with the Host and 2 people with the Chalice.

12 people required for distributing Communion seems to me a bit excessive, but I don’t know the layout of your church nor the number of people present at Mass. But it seems that some people today think that EMHCs (extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion) are a “staple” or a “requirement” at Mass. This is not what the Church thinks! The US Bishops have gone so far as to suggest limiting the Communion of the faithful to only one species (i.e. the Host) to avoid confusing the roles: “In practice, the need to avoid obscuring the role of the priest and the deacon as the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion by an excessive use of extraordinary minister might in some circumstances constitute a reason either for limiting the distribution of Holy Communion under both species or for using intinction instead of distributing the Precious Blood from the chalice.”

Instituted lectors (males who are deputed for this ministry) are preferable to readers. Deacons are preferable to instituted lectors and readers for the Prayer of the Faithful (General Intercessions). Deacons are even preferable to readers (but not instituted lectors) for the First and Second Readings.

I meant nothing of the sort. There is an instituted ministry in the Church called the Lector. It is reserved to males and ordinarily is only entered into by seminarians, on their way to ordination as a deacon; however, from time to time, other men are instituted as Lectors. In the absence of an Instituted Lector, a reader (male or female) can be used.

There is a rite for instituting a lector; there is no such rite for readers. (“Any ceremony associated with the deputation of the non-ordained as collaborators in the ministry of clerics, must not have any semblance to the ceremony of sacred ordination, nor may such ceremony have a form analogous to that of the conferral of lector or acolyte.” - Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts (11 July 1992))

I’m assuming you didn’t know about the difference between an “instituted lector” (a male who has this ministry conferred on him in a ceremony) and a “reader”. This isn’t your fault; you just were never told. Neither was I.

It’s really up to the priest whether or not to do that. I mean going to a Life Teen Mass I’ve heard it chanted and I’ve heard it not. It depends on the the priest not the mass style.

It’s preferred that the Mass is sung, no matter what “style” Mass it is (whatever that means). A sung Mass is the ideal. While it is “up to the priest”, the Church prefers a sung Mass. The Missal (aka. the “Sacramentary”, the book the priest uses to say the Mass) contains music for the priest for just this very reason!

And you’re telling me that any other music wasn’t taken from secular influences? The only thing that wouldn’t be is the Chants that you guys have informed me of…

Well, the degree of secular connotation or influence is a factor. Gregorian Chant is based on the chant of Israel. Polyphony is an adaptation of chant, although there was a period in the Church where polyphony was banned because it was overrun by secular and profane use.

Some music is closer to the supreme model of chant than others. Generally speaking, music with guitars and drums is not remotely close to chant… it relies on chord progressions and a rhythm pretty much alien to the sacred musical heritage of the Church. The Contemporary Christian Music I hear on the radio is, almost completely, not fit for use in the Mass. Someone else suggested the test of hearing the music without the words, and that is an excellent test. Some “religious” music on the radio uses the same chord progressions (or even the same tune) as “secular” or “profane” music. There’s hardcore Christian rock, which is (in my opinion) a shallow attempt at turning a bad thing “good”… and to think, some of the people who enjoy it are people who attack the Catholic Church for doing what they consider to be basically the same thing, “Christianizing” pagan symbols and practices!

One song I’ve heard on the radio has these lyrics “My hands are searching for you / My arms are outstretched towards you / I feel you on my fingertips / My tongue dances behind my lips for you”. Those words, combined with the instruments and the beat and the tune, do not make me think of anything particularly Christian!

The ideal for Church music is actually without instruments! Not even the pipe organ!

…and even if I didn’t go to a Life Teen mass, I would not have access to a TLM, at least not at my parish.

You needn’t attend a TLM (or “Extraordinary Form” Mass) to find the sacred music of the Church. It needn’t even be the Ordinary Form Mass in Latin (such a thing does exist). There are chant settings for English… they’re just not very well known.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, Zabby, I’ve seen the Lifeteen Mass manual and it’s not very impressive. It’s pretty much like the OCP stuff which winds up suggesting that planners draw water from their trough rather than what the Church requires. Having seen both at the Federation of Diocesen Liturgical Committees convention, I decided to skip the paper trail because I was much better off without them.

St. Paul admonishes us to test all things. This is one such occasion where it certainly applied.

Now, regarding Gregorian Chant, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy says this:

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services

Pope John Paul II added his own commnts to the matter in 2003:

1. The Second Vatican Council followed up this approach in chapter VI of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium on the Sacred Liturgy, in which the ecclesial role of sacred music is clearly defined: “The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred melody united to words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn Liturgy”[5]. The Council also recalls that “Sacred Scripture, indeed, has bestowed praise upon sacred song. So have the Fathers of the Church and the Roman Pontiffs who in more recent times, led by St Pius X, have explained more precisely the ministerial function exercised by sacred music in the service of the Lord”[6].

In fact, by continuing the ancient biblical tradition to which the Lord himself and the Apostles abided (cf. Mt 26: 30; Eph 5: 19; Col 3: 16), the Church has encouraged song at liturgical celebrations throughout her history, providing wonderful examples of melodic comment to the sacred texts in accordance with the creativity of every culture, in the rites of both West and East.

The attention my Predecessors thus paid to this delicate sector was constant. They recalled the fundamental principles that must enliven the composition of sacred music, especially when it is destined for the Liturgy. Besides Pope St Pius X, other Popes who deserve mention are Benedict XIV with his Encyclical Annus Qui (19 February 1749), Pius XII with his Encyclicals Mediator Dei (20 November 1947) and Musicae Sacrae Disciplina (25 December 1955), and lastly Paul VI, with the luminous statements that punctuated many of his Speeches.

He also added this very important note:

1. On various occasions I too have recalled the precious role and great importance of music and song for a more active and intense participation in liturgical celebrations[9]. I have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.

In this perspective, in the light of the Magisterium of St Pius X and my other Predecessors and taking into account in particular the pronouncements of the Second Vatican Council, I would like to re-propose several fundamental principles for this important sector of the life of the Church, with the intention of ensuring that liturgical music corresponds ever more closely to its specific function.

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

And, my young friend, this comes from the founder of World Youth Day.

I hope that you don’t take offense to my asking you about your age. Even in my early 20s, some of this stuff took awhile to sink in and penetrate my cranium. But, the important thing is that whether you are 18 or 80 or 100, you never stop learning.

I would also suggest that you get your hands on a little gem called the Spirit of the Liturgy written by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. I think that this will help you. He’s got a lot of good insight, and, if you read carefully, you will find that a lot of what he is doing as Pope Benedict dates back to when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

 

[VociMike]

And you’re telling me that any other music wasn’t taken from secular influences? The only thing that wouldn’t be is the Chants that you guys have informed me of, and even if I didn’t go to a Life Teen mass, I would not have access to a TLM, at least not at my parish.

Just to clarify, I hope you’re not under the impression that chant is only suitable for the TLM (Extraordinary Form). Nothing could be further from the truth. Chanting the Mass (that is, singing the actual texts of the Mass), in Latin or English, is perfectly doable for the Novus Ordo, and is in fact the ideal for that form as well as for the EF.

 

[benedictgal]

Just to clarify, I hope you’re not under the impression that chant is only suitable for the TLM (Extraordinary Form). Nothing could be further from the truth. Chanting the Mass (that is, singing the actual texts of the Mass), in Latin or English, is perfectly doable for the Novus Ordo, and is in fact the ideal for that form as well as for the EF.

I would also suggest to Zabby that our young friend tune into the next Papal Mass, which is celebrated in the Ordinary Form. There is Chant galore and the Holy Father provides the perfect example as to how the Mass should be celebrated, complete with music and everything else.

Zabby, please don’t be offended if I keep referring to you as our young friend. The fact that you are asking and engaging in positive and constructive dialogue shows a maturity beyond years.

 

[Cat]

Oh - have you been attending a TLM recently?

No.

I drive by it on Sundays, and I’m friends with people who attend. It’s definitely not a teen magnet.

And it’s been around since the mid-1980s, so it’s not new here.

 

[Cat]

In my home parish, we are already getting rid of the Extaordinary Ministers, whenever we have at least two priests and one deacon present.

Not if all are present, and none of them sit down during the distribution of the Eucharist.

When the seminaries fill up, the seminarians will do these jobs.

Don’t you make a study of these things in Catholic school?

There are Mass texts for the opening antiphon, Communion antiphon, and recessional antiphon, so, instead of having hymns at those times, you would just have the congregation chant the antiphons.

It should meet the standards of professional artists from all time and all places (that is, it should image reality as closely as possible and make it clearly understandable to the hearers), and it should be oriented towards worship of God.

With regard to artistic realism, for example, a verse that says “We worship thee, O God” would be preferable to a verse that says, “I am Jesus, come follow me,” since obviously nobody singing those words is actually Jesus (thus, lacks artistic realism) - but it is realistic and desirable to think of ourselves as worshipping God.

The tune and instruments used should also be fitting - someone passing by on the sidewalk outside the church, who can hear the music but not the words, should not be able to think that anything other than a Mass is taking place - if he could mistake it for a rock concert, or think that a bunch of kids are dropping dishes in the kitchen, then it’s also not suitable.

If I walk by a church using “chant” or any kind of classical music, I (and other musician friends) am quite likely to think that a concert is going on, not a Mass. I have attended quite a few concerts that were NOT Mass, especially at colleges, featuring chant and ancient music of the Church.

In fact, our city’s music club has a series called the “Cathedral Series” that features ancient religious music, mainly Christian and Jewish. Various Masses by Bach, Mozart, etc. are also performed. The music is quite magnificent, but in my opinion,is no more conducive to worship than the Life Teen soft rock music. I personally have a very hard time getting into a worshipful frame of mind when a classical “concert” is going on in the Mass.

Zabby, don’t let them get to you. Keep up the good work here. Certainly learn as much as you can and use what you can to help make your youth group even stronger.

But trust your priest and the youth ministers that he has established in your parish.

As long as you see good fruit coming out of your Life Teen Mass, don’t worry about all the criticisms you’re reading here. We have a Life Teen Mass at our parish, too, and it’s wonderful. We have a surplus of vocations in our diocese, and they come out of that Life Teen Mass.

Everyone, youth ministry isn’t about the program, it’s about the people. I realize that some of you think that any person who leads youth by instituting Life Teen Mass instead of TLM is a bounder. Well, my question is this–how do you personally demonstrate love for teenagers? The youth ministers in my parish are there for them, 24/7, and they spend hours and hours with them in ministry. That’s what teenagers need. Do you do that?

The Life Teen Mass is just a setting that gets kids in the door of the church. If the teens don’t like it, they have many other Mass options in our parish and in our city, including the TLM. But many kids do like it, and once they are coming to Mass, they often get involved with the youth group and various ministries and catechesis programs, and this helps them grow up to be strong, vibrant Catholics, and in some cases, helps them to discern vocations. When it comes to teenagers, peer influence is very important; that’s just the way it is, and although there are exceptions, most teens are heavily influenced for the good or bad by their peers. That’s what Life Teen is all about–providing a “youth group” of good peers to help a teen grow up and hang onto their faith.

I think all the dreams about teaching more about chant and Mass parts and all that are super–but get practical. How? Where? When? I’ve asked this before. How about some of you who are convicted about liturgical music asking your youth sponsor/minister/leader if you can speak at a Youth meeting and give a presentation about Catholic liturgical music? Wouldn’t that be a place to start? Share your knowledge.

 

[VociMike]

If I walk by a church using “chant” or any kind of classical music, I (and other musician friends) am quite likely to think that a concert is going on, not a Mass. I have attended quite a few concerts that were NOT Mass, especially at colleges, featuring chant and ancient music of the Church.

In fact, our city’s music club has a series called the “Cathedral Series” that features ancient religious music, mainly Christian and Jewish. Various Masses by Bach, Mozart, etc. are also performed. The music is quite magnificent, but in my opinion,is no more conducive to worship than the Life Teen soft rock music. I personally have a very hard time getting into a worshipful frame of mind when a classical “concert” is going on in the Mass.

Zabby, don’t let them get to you. Keep up the good work here. Certainly learn as much as you can and use what you can to help make your youth group even stronger.

But trust your priest and the youth ministers that he has established in your parish.

As long as you see good fruit coming out of your Life Teen Mass, don’t worry about all the criticisms you’re reading here. We have a Life Teen Mass at our parish, too, and it’s wonderful. We have a surplus of vocations in our diocese, and they come out of that Life Teen Mass.

Everyone, youth ministry isn’t about the program, it’s about the people. I realize that some of you think that any person who leads youth by instituting Life Teen Mass instead of TLM is a bounder. Well, my question is this–how do you personally demonstrate love for teenagers? The youth ministers in my parish are there for them, 24/7, and they spend hours and hours with them in ministry. That’s what teenagers need. Do you do that?

The Life Teen Mass is just a setting that gets kids in the door of the church. If the teens don’t like it, they have many other Mass options in our parish and in our city, including the TLM. But many kids do like it, and once they are coming to Mass, they often get involved with the youth group and various ministries and catechesis programs, and this helps them grow up to be strong, vibrant Catholics, and in some cases, helps them to discern vocations. When it comes to teenagers, peer influence is very important; that’s just the way it is, and although there are exceptions, most teens are heavily influenced for the good or bad by their peers. That’s what Life Teen is all about–providing a “youth group” of good peers to help a teen grow up and hang onto their faith.

I think all the dreams about teaching more about chant and Mass parts and all that are super–but get practical. How? Where? When? I’ve asked this before. How about some of you who are convicted about liturgical music asking your youth sponsor/minister/leader if you can speak at a Youth meeting and give a presentation about Catholic liturgical music? Wouldn’t that be a place to start? Share your knowledge.

It was just this kind of attitude that took the explicit words of Vatican II regarding sacred music and turned them on their head, resulting in the near abolishment of the music proclaimed to hold pride of place. 1001 excuses not to do what the Council called for. Is there any wonder why, when you hear chant or polyphony, you think “concert” rather than “liturgy”?

 

[benedictgal]

If we examine Sacramentum Caritatis, we will find that the Holy Father notes that:

Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

And, how do we get there? How do we go about continuing this Tradition? Musicam Sacram gives us the answer:

52. In order to preserve the heritage of sacred music and genuinely promote the new forms of sacred singing, “great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutes and schools,” especially in those higher institutes intended specially for this.37 Above all, the study and practice of Gregorian chant is to be promoted, because, with its special characteristics, it is a basis of great importance for the development of sacred music.

The document, as I read it, doesn’t just limit itself to convents, seminaries and novitiates. It also takes in Catholic schools, including universities. Therefore, in answer to a comment previously posted by Zabby, it’s already noted in the documents. In fact, Musicam Sacram has been around for 41 years, and, its never been abrogated.

Therefore, has given us the mechanism to maintain the Tradition. In fact, the tunes are a lot easier to sing than some of the stuff you’ll find at LifeTeen. There are also solid English translations (O Sun of Justice, Attende Domine) that are easy for anyone, including teens, to sing.

Finally, it is a sad commentary to just relegate the Church’s sacred treasury of music to concerts. These weren’t meant to be performed at arenas or concert halls. These ancient prayers of the Church are just that, prayers, and these are meant for the Mass. They are not museum pieces. They constitute the rich deposit of the Church’s sacred music. They certainly have their place in the Mass, moreso than Protestant Praise and Worship music that focuses on the community and the individual rather than on God.

 

[JKS]

I regularly attend the TLM, but only because it’s at a convenient place and time; I actually prefer the NO, when it’s reverently done (which to me means no guitars. They make me twitch.
“Mary, did you knoooooooooow”-twang-twang-twang “that yer baaaybeey boooooy” twang-twang-twang versus “Panis Angelicus”? fuggedaboudit)

I’m not crazy about the mumbled or silent stuff, especially in the Low Mass, but in reading this and the other “Lifeteen” threads, and from attending my in-laws’ parish, I see what a huge problem there is with liturgical abuses that have gone on for so long, that many people under 50 have no idea that it just isn’t supposed to be like this.

Zabby,
What they’re telling you is true. I’ve only begun to learn in the past few years that the Church’s official position is that if there is going to be music at Mass, it’s supposed to be Mass parts, not hymns. I think it’s that “Sacrosanctum” document that covers it. And both JPII, and now Pope Benedict especially, have stated it many times. Unfortunately, they have spoken Vatican-ese, so it doesn’t come out in the blunt American style we’re used to seeing; therefore, since many of our bishops don’t really want to follow along, they ignore it, and many of the laity don’t even know we’re not doing things right. And the style matters, too. As others pointed out, chant is the ideal, and rock is out (so it isn’t correct to sing the “Our Father” to the tune of “Hey Jude”. Really.)

As for Communion: priests and deacon are Ordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, and laity are Extraordinary Ministers-not because there’s anything super-duper about them, but because they’re only supposed to be used in extraordinary circumstances. Taking Communion in the hand is something the Vatican reluctantly permitted about thirty years ago, ditto for altar girls, twenty or so years ago. The pope recently decided that at his Masses, Communion is to be received on the tongue, while the communicant is kneeling, just like it always used to be. Get ready; it’s heading back to the way it was, and should be. It’s nothing personal; it’s just that it isn’t about you, or your preferences.

You’re right, this might drive away some people. Some of the laity won’t be able to handle the fact that they aren’t special enough any more, or that the music isn’t thumpy enough any more. (Some) There are many teachings of the Church that cause men to say, “This saying is hard, and who can hear it?” (John 6:61, Douay-Rheims). “After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him.” (Jn 6:67)

 

[ibkc]

Our archdiocese recently sponsored a workshop on chant, and how to introduce it into a parish that is unfamiliar. I don’t know how it was attended or how it went, but I hope it went well.

 

[Zabby]

Thanks for telling me all this stuff guys. I really appreciate learning about this sort of thing that I never get to in my daily Catholic faith.

I’d also like to apologize for disappearing suddenly, but I had work, and it really cleared my head, that and some prayer.

12 people required for distributing Communion seems to me a bit excessive, but I don’t know the layout of your church nor the number of people present at Mass.

Yeah, I have a rather large parish, and we’ve got a balcony, so that automatically off-balances things.

I’m assuming you didn’t know about the difference between an “instituted lector” (a male who has this ministry conferred on him in a ceremony) and a “reader”. This isn’t your fault; you just were never told. Neither was I.

Ah, yes very interesting to know. Thanks

Well, the degree of secular connotation or influence is a factor. Gregorian Chant is based on the chant of Israel. Polyphony is an adaptation of chant, although there was a period in the Church where polyphony was banned because it was overrun by secular and profane use.

Some music is closer to the supreme model of chant than others. Generally speaking, music with guitars and drums is not remotely close to chant… it relies on chord progressions and a rhythm pretty much alien to the sacred musical heritage of the Church. The Contemporary Christian Music I hear on the radio is, almost completely, not fit for use in the Mass. Someone else suggested the test of hearing the music without the words, and that is an excellent test. Some “religious” music on the radio uses the same chord progressions (or even the same tune) as “secular” or “profane” music. There’s hardcore Christian rock, which is (in my opinion) a shallow attempt at turning a bad thing “good”… and to think, some of the people who enjoy it are people who attack the Catholic Church for doing what they consider to be basically the same thing, “Christianizing” pagan symbols and practices!

One song I’ve heard on the radio has these lyrics “My hands are searching for you / My arms are outstretched towards you / I feel you on my fingertips / My tongue dances behind my lips for you”. Those words, combined with the instruments and the beat and the tune, do not make me think of anything particularly Christian!

The ideal for Church music is actually without instruments! Not even the pipe organ!

Wow… this is all really interesting. If I might ease your mind a bit, I’ve never heard a song from the radio in mass. Most of it is personal compositions of our Music ministry leader/Ex-music ministry leader or specifically Catholic artists that they don’t play on the radio.

I would also suggest that you get your hands on a little gem called the Spirit of the Liturgy written by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. I think that this will help you. He’s got a lot of good insight, and, if you read carefully, you will find that a lot of what he is doing as Pope Benedict dates back to when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

Well, although school is starting soon and I won’t have much time for reading, I will look into it.

I would also suggest to Zabby that our young friend tune into the next Papal Mass, which is celebrated in the Ordinary Form. There is Chant galore and the Holy Father provides the perfect example as to how the Mass should be celebrated, complete with music and everything else.

Zabby, please don’t be offended if I keep referring to you as our young friend. The fact that you are asking and engaging in positive and constructive dialogue shows a maturity beyond years.

No, I’m not offended, don’t worry about it because I am rather young and defiantly your friend in Christ. . Oh, and I have been to a Papal Mass, but I’m sure it’s not what you’re talking about. I went up to NYC to attend the last Papal mass in Yankee Stadium with some kids from my youth group. It was amazing .

As for Communion: priests and deacon are Ordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, and laity are Extraordinary Ministers-not because there’s anything super-duper about them, but because they’re only supposed to be used in extraordinary circumstances. Taking Communion in the hand is something the Vatican reluctantly permitted about thirty years ago, ditto for altar girls, twenty or so years ago. The pope recently decided that at his Masses, Communion is to be received on the tongue, while the communicant is kneeling, just like it always used to be. Get ready; it’s heading back to the way it was, and should be. It’s nothing personal; it’s just that it isn’t about you, or your preferences.

You’re right, this might drive away some people. Some of the laity won’t be able to handle the fact that they aren’t special enough any more, or that the music isn’t thumpy enough any more. (Some) There are many teachings of the Church that cause men to say, “This saying is hard, and who can hear it?” (John 6:61, Douay-Rheims). “After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him.” (Jn 6:67)

This is actually really interesting that you say the Mass will turn back. I’m not saying that I dissagree with you or anything, I’m just saying that it’ll be hard to think about. Being raised in a church that always had a modern-esque feel about it, it will be weird. It’s always weird when I go up to my grandmother’s house and go to her church, but I sure I can handle it.

I’m kind of excited about all these things that you guys have told me at the same time. I’ll be looking into all that you guys have told me, which is a lot to sink in all in one day, but it all sounds really cool.

If you guys were trying to keep me from going to a Life Teen Mass, I’ll tell you that I won’t stop going, but I’m going to expand my horizons by trying out different masses. Maybe I’ll go to more then one a week end ones not sure and daily Mass too probably is more like what you’re talking about.

I’m going to need time to let all this sink in, but thanks for telling me. I would have never dreamed of all of this being true unless it had been pointed out.

 

[benedictgal]

Being raised in a church that always had a modern-esque feel about it, it will be weird. It’s always weird when I go up to my grandmother’s house and go to her church, but I sure I can handle it.

I’m kind of excited about all these things that you guys have told me at the same time. I’ll be looking into all that you guys have told me, which is a lot to sink in all in one day, but it all sounds really cool.

If you guys were trying to keep me from going to a Life Teen Mass, I’ll tell you that I won’t stop going, but I’m going to expand my horizons by trying out different masses. Maybe I’ll go to more then one a week end ones not sure and daily Mass too probably is more like what you’re talking about.

I’m going to need time to let all this sink in, but thanks for telling me. I would have never dreamed of all of this being true unless it had been pointed out.

Zabby, it is your option to attend whatever Mass you choose. However, what some of us are trying to do is to help you see that the Church has a deeper, more lasting Tradition regarding its liturgy than what you are currently experieincing.

The Church is called to read the signs of the times, but, she is called, not to flip-flop with the latest trend, but, to maintain her Truths and her liturgy.

I come from a Saleisan background, myself. The nuns, at that time, taught us fidelity to Rome because that was the mainstay of St. John Bosco’s approach. Yes, reach out to the kids, but, in perfect fidelity to the Holy Father. The new crop introduced the LifeTeen approach to the Mass as well as “dancing” (which is a whole other can of worms). Priests have told me that they dread having to go celebrate Mass at my alma mater because of this.

They find the music (drums, electric guitars, keyboards) not at all conducive to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass has a character, dignity, solemnity and majesty that must be maintained. I like these intrusments, but, for secular stuff, not for the Mass.

What I wound up doing was talking to the Superintendent of schools (as well as to the Salesian Provincial) and sending them documentation from the Holy See regarding both music and the matter of “dance”. The nuns weren’t too happy with me about what I did, especially since their kids couldn’t dance nor sing at the diocesan Catholic Schools Week Mass. But, I reminded them that the order had taught me that fidelity to Rome was tantamount and I also reminded them that Don Bosco never took liberties with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass nor the sacraments. Had Don Bosco walked in on what they were doing during his Feast Day, he would have had a fit.

 

[VociMike]

I’m kind of excited about all these things that you guys have told me at the same time. I’ll be looking into all that you guys have told me, which is a lot to sink in all in one day, but it all sounds really cool.

It really is “cool” in the best sense of the word. It is unique, set apart, radical, ancient without being outdated, in deep contrast with the mundane and commonplace. And I for one am convinced that teens would take to it if it were offered to them. Teens hate being talked down to or otherwise condescended to. They want the real deal, the adult stuff. My favorite way of putting it is that people want a faith that is larger than themselves, not a faith that is smaller than themselves. And I bet you’d agree with all this, right?

If you guys were trying to keep me from going to a Life Teen Mass, I’ll tell you that I won’t stop going, but I’m going to expand my horizons by trying out different masses. Maybe I’ll go to more then one a week end ones not sure and daily Mass too probably is more like what you’re talking about.

No, not at all. I think all that anybody wants is that people, including teens, be exposed to their deep, rich Catholic patrimony. If nothing else, it’s a question of basic fairness. It’s not fair that the ideals that the Church holds out for the liturgy have been kept from you, hidden away. It’s not fair that somebody else has decided for you that you shouldn’t know these ideals, or wouldn’t be interested in them. Every Catholic deserves to become acquainted with these ideals, these treasures. Every Catholic deserves to have them at least made available so that the choice of liturgical “style” or “atmosphere” is theirs to make and the choice is not made for them without their knowledge or consent.

I’m going to need time to let all this sink in, but thanks for telling me. I would have never dreamed of all of this being true unless it had been pointed out.

Exactly. The people who should have told you, didn’t tell you. And that’s been going on for two generations now, and that’s not right. You, every Catholic, deserves this information, and deserves the opportunity to participate in liturgies that reach for the ideal if that’s what you choose. You, every Catholic, deserves to have at least the opportunity to attend a Mass like those celebrated at the Vatican, or at a monastery that values the liturgy.

For the life of me I don’t understand why teen-oriented programs don’t offer a solemn sung Mass at least once a month. Not every Sunday, but why not once a month? Why don’t they just occasionally offer their teens a taste of their own patrimony, a solemn liturgy and the musical treasure of inestimable value that is the birthright of every Catholic?

And last but not least (well, maybe least ), have a listen to my sacred music site, www.choraltreasure.org. Hear the music that generations before our own have written to worship God and sanctify the faithful. And then tell your priests that you want some of that radical, ancient liturgy in addition to (not in place of, just in addition to) the standard “teen” fare.

 

[Jimsdun]

Benedictgal, you hit the nail on the head. Now I know that lifeteen is not the same everywhere. I have learned, prartly from this discussion board, that some lifeteen masses are as reverent as can be, and others are 3 ring circuses.

I think it’s not fair that young persons be deprived of the rich liturgies of the past. Just because they might not have experienced it doesn’t mean they’re automatically going to dislike it.

Take secular music for example. I grew up in the 70s, and I remember the music of that era. One day I was tuning AM radio and found a real “oldies” station. I mean REAL oldies, like Big Band and WW2 era crooners. I had never heard this music before, because it was popular before I was born. But I LOVED IT

That’s what the problem of the CCM at Lifeteen masses, Probably a whole generation has grown up being deprived of some of our heritage and culture. Some of our Protestant brethren are similarly deprived. I talked to one young person who knows “Awesome God” but has never heard “How Great Thou Art” (and I thought EVERY protestant knew that one).

 

[jmcrae]

Benedictgal, you hit the nail on the head. Now I know that lifeteen is not the same everywhere. I have learned, prartly from this discussion board, that some lifeteen masses are as reverent as can be, and others are 3 ring circuses.

I think it’s not fair that young persons be deprived of the rich liturgies of the past. Just because they might not have experienced it doesn’t mean they’re automatically going to dislike it.

Take secular music for example. I grew up in the 70s, and I remember the music of that era. One day I was tuning AM radio and found a real “oldies” station. I mean REAL oldies, like Big Band and WW2 era crooners. I had never heard this music before, because it was popular before I was born. But I LOVED IT

That’s what the problem of the CCM at Lifeteen masses, Probably a whole generation has grown up being deprived of some of our heritage and culture. Some of our Protestant brethren are similarly deprived. I talked to one young person who knows “Awesome God” but has never heard “How Great Thou Art” (and I thought EVERY protestant knew that one).

When I was a teenager, my younger brother took up the violin. From there, I was introduced to the music of Handel, which completely blew my mind - I was in love.

Handel’s Messiah is still my favourite piece. At one point, I had all of the lyrics memorized.