Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and Born Again

[alwayswill]

In this article
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/born-again-the-bible-way
Tim Staples writes, “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.”

Does Catholics theology allow for the scenario in which a baptized infant grows into adulthood rejecting God for their entire life?

IOW; as soon as they can think for themselves, they lump the Toothy Fairy, Santa Claus and God all in the same group;

Maybe the parents are agnostic
Perhaps the parents only had their infant baptized to make Grandma happy.
And other than weddings, funerals, Christmas , and Easter the parents really have nothing more to do with the Church.

So little Johnny grows up NEVER believing and out right rejecting God.

Can someone be a Lifelong atheist, Hell bound, and be Born Again?

 

[Wesrock]

Well, such a person would be very much spiritually dead by that point, but yes, they were born again and regenerated of water and Spirit at their Baptism. Conversion and repentance can resuscitate them, but it would be back into their Baptismal life in Christ, not a third birth. You can only be born again once. Baptism constitutes a real death of the old and a real birth new and regenerated, a participation in the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

 

[rcwitness]

Baptism does not guarantee the cooperation with the grace received. It does not guarantee belief when the child reaches the age of reason.

CCC

1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here.

 

[rcwitness]

A believer who accepts baptism, may or may not grow and endure in the faith. Though a believer cannot reject Baptism just because it does not guarantee them Assurance at the Final judgment. What Baptism does do, is assure us of the forgiveness of sins and reception into the New Covenant body.

 

[alwayswill]

Well, such a person would be very much spiritually dead by that point, but yes, they were born again and regenerated of water and Spirit at their Baptism. Conversion and repentance can resuscitate them, but it would be back into their Baptismal life in Christ, not a third birth. You can only be born again once. Baptism constitutes a real death of the old and a real birth new and regenerated, a participation in the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

I want to get my terminology right

“You can only be born again once”

I would assume that Catholicism holds you can not become un-elected.
(please correct me if I am wrong)

and in an another thread Catholics agree that eternal life , does not mean temporary life…

What is the proper terminology for when someone is inbetween periods of time of " being saved" and “not being saved”

If infant Johnny was baptized, rejects God in HS, come back to the faith as a father: loses faith when his son dies, etc…
Is there a proper term for those faithless periods of those born again?

 

[alwayswill]

A believer who accepts baptism, may or may not grow and endure in the faith. Though a believer cannot reject Baptism just because it does not guarantee them Assurance at the Final judgment. What Baptism does do, is assure us of the forgiveness of sins and reception into the New Covenant body.

“A believer who accepts baptism…”

Is it the Catholic that infants are believers AND accept baptism ?

or are you talking about adults later in life?

 

[Wesrock]

I don’t know if there’s a technical term. Being in a state of grace versus not being in a state of grace? We sometimes speak of being saved in different ways.

There’s a road to God. During our lives we can follow the road or follow other paths. Many are on the road at some points, off at others, and return. It’s whether or not we are on that road to God at death that decides our final state. Then our trajectory is fixed, at least of our own power. As always, that’s a simplified description.

 

[rcwitness]

I want to get my terminology right

“You can only be born again once”

Yes, but just as justification, it can be a process that one “works out” (I don’t mean earns through works)

I would assume that Catholicism holds you can not become un-elected.
(please correct me if I am wrong)

I better not answer this. I am not certain.

What is the proper terminology for when someone is inbetween periods of time of " being saved" and “not being saved”

If infant Johnny was baptized, rejects God in HS, come back to the faith as a father: loses faith when his son dies, etc…
Is there a proper term for those faithless periods of those born again?

Serious doubts

 

[rcwitness]

“A believer who accepts baptism…”

Is it the Catholic that infants are believers AND accept baptism ?

or are you talking about adults later in life?

Infants are under the responsibility, jurisdiction, obligation and faith of their parents/guardian.

An infant is offered and given what their parents provide. At age of reason, he/she is able to accept/reject what is offered.

Belief applies to the age of reason, I believe.

 

[Michael68]

I want to get my terminology right

“You can only be born again once”

I would assume that Catholicism holds you can not become un-elected.
(please correct me if I am wrong)

and in an another thread Catholics agree that eternal life , does not mean temporary life…

What is the proper terminology for when someone is inbetween periods of time of " being saved" and “not being saved”

If infant Johnny was baptized, rejects God in HS, come back to the faith as a father: loses faith when his son dies, etc…
Is there a proper term for those faithless periods of those born again?

I would call it the Holy Darkness when we don’t hear God or feel spiritual. It passes

 

[Wesrock]

The Church as a whole can be referred to as an Assembly of believers, infants to the elderly. Abraham circumcised Isaac at eight days and Ishmael at 13. The people of Israel continued the practice of infant circumcision. Being accepted into the Covenant and the Assembly of Israel was not an intellectual choice for many. They could leave, abandon the Law, but they were always marked as a person of Israel. It was something many had been brought into as infants. And where the old circumcision was of the flesh, the new is of the heart (in a spiritual sense). We bring our children and infants into the covenant and the Assembly of the New Israel.

I suppose that’s a bit of a tangent. The marking, the sign, it was being put on the right road, being set apart for God, but it was not assurance.

Can one of the elect lose that election? To that, I believe the answer must be a firm no, though I am wary of saying too much more for lack of knowledge. Not all of the baptised are part of the elect destined for eternal glory, though perhaps it could be said they have been elected in some sense in terms of grace received.

 

[alwayswill]

Well, such a person would be very much spiritually dead by that point, but yes, they were born again and regenerated of water and Spirit at their Baptism. Conversion and repentance can resuscitate them, but it would be back into their Baptismal life in Christ, not a third birth. You can only be born again once. Baptism constitutes a real death of the old and a real birth new and regenerated, a participation in the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

Can you please work through your post a little more for me?

Catholic teaching is that baptized infants are “born again”
Obviously that is not a physical re-birth, but a spiritual re-birth

You stated that my example of the adult atheist is now spiritually dead
Obviously that is not a physical death but a spiritual death.

Now IF that adult atheist returns to the faith , then they are no longer spiritually dead; but are now spiritually alive. Correct?

So if they were dead and now alive; How is that not being born-again again?

Thank you

 

[alwayswill]

The Church as a whole can be referred to as an Assembly of believers, infants to the elderly. Abraham circumcised Isaac at eight days and Ishmael at 13. The people of Israel continued the practice of infant circumcision. Being accepted into the Covenant and the Assembly of Israel was not an intellectual choice for many. They could leave, abandon the Law, but they were always marked as a person of Israel. It was something many had been brought into as infants. And where the old circumcision was of the flesh, the new is of the heart (in a spiritual sense). We bring our children and infants into the covenant and the Assembly of the New Israel.

I suppose that’s a bit of a tangent. The marking, the sign, it was being put on the right road, being set apart for God, but it was not assurance.

Can one of the elect lose that election? To that, I believe the answer must be a firm no, though I am wary of saying too much more for lack of knowledge. Not all of the baptised are part of the elect destined for eternal glory, though perhaps it could be said they have been elected in some sense in terms of grace received.

would you agree with these statement as being true of Catholic teaching?

all those who are elect will be saved at the end.
all those who are saved at the end are the elect.
any one is not saved at the end was not among the elect.
one cannot move between being elect and being non- elect

Being baptized does not make someone among the elect
Being born again (which occurs at infant baptism) does not make someone among the elect

 

[the_phoenix]

Now IF that adult atheist returns to the faith , then they are no longer spiritually dead; but are now spiritually alive. Correct?

So if they were dead and now alive; How is that not being born-again again?

Thank you

Remember the story of the Prodigal Son?

The father speaks to the elder brother:

“But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found.” ~~ Luke 15:32

…

 

[Wesrock]

Baptism constitutes a true regeneration of the person such that they arise as a new creation. That is not a metaphor, and it is of the whole person. There is no such rebirth in the person coming back to Christ. Not in the way of Baptism.

A Jewish man who abandons Judaism doesn’t get (nor can he be) recircumcized should he return. He is already marked. He is reintegrated into the community.

Anyway, I referred to it as a resuscitation. Like when a person stops breathing, maybe even the heart stops, and they can be resuscitated by new breath being given to them (via CPR). But they are not remade, they’re restored. These are my own word choices.

 

[alwayswill]

Remember the story of the Prodigal Son?

The father speaks to the elder brother:

“But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found.” ~~ Luke 15:32

…

yes : that’s what the Bible says.
was the Prodigal son born-again again?

I am questioning Wesrock’s statement in that you can only be born again once: Is that Catholic teaching?
Born again at infant baptism> spiritually dead at one point in life> return to faith an become spirituality alive > spiritually dead at another point in life> return again to faith an become spirituality alive again.

If that person has moved from spiritual life to spiritual deaf to spiritual life more than once:
Has that person been born again more than once?

 

[Wesrock]

would you agree with these statement as being true of Catholic teaching?

all those who are elect will be saved at the end.
all those who are saved at the end are the elect.
any one is not saved at the end was not among the elect.
one cannot move between being elect and being non- elect

Being baptized does not make someone among the elect
Being born again (which occurs at infant baptism) does not make someone among the elect

In terms of using elect as those elected to eternal glory with God, yes, I believe I can agree with those statements.

There is an election in some sense to being part of the Church, the word can be used in more than one sense. But in the way you mean it, I believe you are correct.

Also, just to state it, I think many lay-Catholics understate the Church’s view of predestination and God’s Providence.

 

[rcwitness]

yes : that’s what the Bible says.
was the Prodigal son born-again again?

I am questioning Wesrock’s statement in that you can only be born again once: Is that Catholic teaching?
Born again at infant baptism> spiritually dead at one point in life> return to faith an become spirituality alive > spiritually dead at another point in life> return again to faith an become spirituality alive again.

If that person has moved from spiritual life to spiritual deaf to spiritual life more than once:
Has that person been born again more than once?

There is conversion and there are conversions. There is born again and rebirths. There is a justification and times of justifications. There is the gift of salvation, but there are times of repentance.

 

[Wesrock]

yes : that’s what the Bible says.
was the Prodigal son born-again again?

I am questioning Wesrock’s statement in that you can only be born again once: Is that Catholic teaching?
Born again at infant baptism> spiritually dead at one point in life> return to faith an become spirituality alive > spiritually dead at another point in life> return again to faith an become spirituality alive again.

If that person has moved from spiritual life to spiritual deaf to spiritual life more than once:
Has that person been born again more than once?

No. Being born again is not just spiritual life, it is being made into a new person through Baptism.

 

[Michael68]

yes : that’s what the Bible says.
was the Prodigal son born-again again?

I am questioning Wesrock’s statement in that you can only be born again once: Is that Catholic teaching?
Born again at infant baptism> spiritually dead at one point in life> return to faith an become spirituality alive > spiritually dead at another point in life> return again to faith an become spirituality alive again.

If that person has moved from spiritual life to spiritual deaf to spiritual life more than once:
Has that person been born again more than once?

What did our Lord tell Nicodemus? I believe you are trying to equate questioning one’s spirituality with death. That is not the case. You can always come back to the Lord.