Lifeteen, around the altar - a special situation

[daughterofmary]

As I said in another thread, there was a retreat I went on this weekend. We were in a building. It was not a chapel by any means. The men took a table and made an altar of it (two candles, an altar cloth, etc.) They took chairs and put them a bit of some space back from the altar. They lined the chairs up into three to four rows where the youth would sit. During Mass the YM motioned for the youth to come forward. They came forward around the time of the Sanctus and then kneeled. The youth gathered around the altar totally. Some were very close to the priest, kneeling. They circled around the altar. They stayed this way, rising at the Lord’s Prayer and the Kiss of Peace. Then during the Kiss of Peace they were told to return to their seats. The whole while the Kiss of Peace is still in progress (everyone is wishing each other peace on the way back to their chairs). Then the Mass went on as usual. After Communion the youth kneeled infront of their chairs. There was space to do so. And last year, on this same year, there was none of this go-around-the-altar-stuff. Everyone kneeled perfectly well infront of their seats.

Now, I understand that gathering around the altar is an abuse. But in this case, is there any way in which it was acceptable? While they were kneeling some of the youth were so close to the altar they had the temptation to rest their arms on the altar (although I don’t know if this was actually done, but I did see - I believe - one boy going to do it and then withdrawing and then later I spoke to another adult and she noticed this being a problem as well). I am wondering if anything was done wrong here. Deep down I feel there was, but I don’t want to totally jump to conclusions when I really do not know.

I also have went to the Lifeteen Mass at my parish with this same YM. This has never been done before. This is the first time.

I keep thinking also of the the pictures of Pope John Paul II celebrating Mass on camping trips. I wonder how close the youth that were with him came to the altar. Granted they did not have chairs obviously… was there a specified distance they probably had - that we should have had - in this very different physical Mass environment? We did have chairs and had done this before and everything had worked out fine though without gathering around the altar… so there is a difference of course.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

As I said in another thread, there was a retreat I went on this weekend. We were in a building. It was not a chapel by any means. The men took a table and made an altar of it (two candles, an altar cloth, etc.) They took chairs and put them a bit of some space back from the altar. They lined the chairs up into three to four rows where the youth would sit. During Mass the YM motioned for the youth to come forward. They came forward around the time of the Sanctus and then kneeled. The youth gathered around the altar totally. Some were very close to the priest, kneeling. They circled around the altar. They stayed this way, rising at the Lord’s Prayer and the Kiss of Peace. Then during the Kiss of Peace they were told to return to their seats. The whole while the Kiss of Peace is still in progress (everyone is wishing each other peace on the way back to their chairs). Then the Mass went on as usual. After Communion the youth kneeled infront of their chairs. There was space to do so. And last year, on this same year, there was none of this go-around-the-altar-stuff. Everyone kneeled perfectly well infront of their seats.

Now, I understand that gathering around the altar is an abuse. But in this case, is there any way in which it was acceptable? While they were kneeling some of the youth were so close to the altar they had the temptation to rest their arms on the altar (although I don’t know if this was actually done, but I did see - I believe - one boy going to do it and then withdrawing and then later I spoke to another adult and she noticed this being a problem as well). I am wondering if anything was done wrong here. Deep down I feel there was, but I don’t want to totally jump to conclusions when I really do not know.

I also have went to the Lifeteen Mass at my parish with this same YM. This has never been done before. This is the first time.

I keep thinking also of the the pictures of Pope John Paul II celebrating Mass on camping trips. I wonder how close the youth that were with him came to the altar. Granted they did not have chairs obviously… was there a specified distance they probably had - that we should have had - in this very different physical Mass environment? We did have chairs and had done this before and everything had worked out fine though without gathering around the altar… so there is a difference of course.

The chairs could have been quite close to the altar, even arranged in a semi circle. That would have been fine. But what is with this YM motioning the kids to come up around the altar?? Not to be done. As abuses go it was quite mild, not called for in the rubrics but it doesn’t affect the validity of the mass. If the YM has not done this sort of thing before maybe he/she is being influenced by some person (hopefully not the pastor) or has seen this being done elsewhere and is trying to make the mass more meaningful to the kids by letting them move closer to the altar. And next year they can all go up and link elbows around the priest during the reading of the gospel?

What did the other adults think? It’s not a big thing but sometimes can be an indication of a lack of respect of church authority. Other times it is quite innocently done from good motives.

 

[Seatuck]

YM probably has not been educated that this is not permitted. Perhaps you can do it. His telling the kids they can go to communion without confession first shows more ignorance. We can charitably assume ignorance and not willful abuse. But it could be the latter. Start out by telling him(I think it was a him) in person about the good things you saw in the retreat and then go on to the things that you thought were not allowed and ask him/her to research it. Or you can provide some things to him as resources by mail or email. Be kind and charitable and offer to help. He may tell you the Priest suggested it . Who knows?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

As I said in another thread, there was a retreat I went on this weekend. We were in a building. It was not a chapel by any means. The men took a table and made an altar of it (two candles, an altar cloth, etc.) They took chairs and put them a bit of some space back from the altar. They lined the chairs up into three to four rows where the youth would sit. During Mass the YM motioned for the youth to come forward. They came forward around the time of the Sanctus and then kneeled. The youth gathered around the altar totally. Some were very close to the priest, kneeling. They circled around the altar. They stayed this way, rising at the Lord’s Prayer and the Kiss of Peace. Then during the Kiss of Peace they were told to return to their seats. The whole while the Kiss of Peace is still in progress (everyone is wishing each other peace on the way back to their chairs). Then the Mass went on as usual. After Communion the youth kneeled infront of their chairs. There was space to do so. And last year, on this same year, there was none of this go-around-the-altar-stuff. Everyone kneeled perfectly well infront of their seats.

Now, I understand that gathering around the altar is an abuse. But in this case, is there any way in which it was acceptable? While they were kneeling some of the youth were so close to the altar they had the temptation to rest their arms on the altar (although I don’t know if this was actually done, but I did see - I believe - one boy going to do it and then withdrawing and then later I spoke to another adult and she noticed this being a problem as well). I am wondering if anything was done wrong here. Deep down I feel there was, but I don’t want to totally jump to conclusions when I really do not know.

I also have went to the Lifeteen Mass at my parish with this same YM. This has never been done before. This is the first time.

I keep thinking also of the the pictures of Pope John Paul II celebrating Mass on camping trips. I wonder how close the youth that were with him came to the altar. Granted they did not have chairs obviously… was there a specified distance they probably had - that we should have had - in this very different physical Mass environment? We did have chairs and had done this before and everything had worked out fine though without gathering around the altar… so there is a difference of course.

We will continue to see prohibited actions at these special event Masses. Simply because liturgists especially for youth events will be creative And there is very little that can be done about it since most are one time deals. It will take a while to put an end to the “Lifeteen” issues, but it will happen when Bishops prohibit it in their diocese.

 

[benedictgal]

As I said in another thread, there was a retreat I went on this weekend. We were in a building. It was not a chapel by any means. The men took a table and made an altar of it (two candles, an altar cloth, etc.) They took chairs and put them a bit of some space back from the altar. They lined the chairs up into three to four rows where the youth would sit. During Mass the YM motioned for the youth to come forward. They came forward around the time of the Sanctus and then kneeled. The youth gathered around the altar totally. Some were very close to the priest, kneeling. They circled around the altar. They stayed this way, rising at the Lord’s Prayer and the Kiss of Peace. Then during the Kiss of Peace they were told to return to their seats. The whole while the Kiss of Peace is still in progress (everyone is wishing each other peace on the way back to their chairs). Then the Mass went on as usual. After Communion the youth kneeled infront of their chairs. There was space to do so. And last year, on this same year, there was none of this go-around-the-altar-stuff. Everyone kneeled perfectly well infront of their seats.

Now, I understand that gathering around the altar is an abuse. But in this case, is there any way in which it was acceptable? While they were kneeling some of the youth were so close to the altar they had the temptation to rest their arms on the altar (although I don’t know if this was actually done, but I did see - I believe - one boy going to do it and then withdrawing and then later I spoke to another adult and she noticed this being a problem as well). I am wondering if anything was done wrong here. Deep down I feel there was, but I don’t want to totally jump to conclusions when I really do not know.

I also have went to the Lifeteen Mass at my parish with this same YM. This has never been done before. This is the first time.

I keep thinking also of the the pictures of Pope John Paul II celebrating Mass on camping trips. I wonder how close the youth that were with him came to the altar. Granted they did not have chairs obviously… was there a specified distance they probably had - that we should have had - in this very different physical Mass environment? We did have chairs and had done this before and everything had worked out fine though without gathering around the altar… so there is a difference of course.

Your final post is not necessarily germaine to the argument. First of all, the former Fr. Karol Wojtyla was out in the middle of the woods. You don’t have the same set-up. With all due respect, you are trying to force one situation on something that is entirely different. Furthermore, Fr. Wojtyla was celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass at that time, which doesn’t allow for any innovations or nuances. Given his staunch defense of the liturgy (when he became Pope), I seriously doubt that he would have played fast and loose with the rubrics.

Even if the kids were kneeling, their place is still not to kneel around the altar. Their rightful place is with the rest of the faithful, within the assembly.

The only allowances for “creativity” come in the selection of the readings and the propers, and these, by the way, must come from approved texts. You cannot invent your own postures and rubrics. That is prohbited under Redemptionis Sacramentum, the same document that the former Fr. Wojtyla, as Pope John Paul II, commissioned.

 

[Digitonomy]

I keep thinking also of the the pictures of Pope John Paul II celebrating Mass on camping trips. I wonder how close the youth that were with him came to the altar. Granted they did not have chairs obviously… was there a specified distance they probably had - that we should have had - in this very different physical Mass environment?

You touch on an interesting issue which I have not heard discussed - if there is a limited area in which a one-time mass is being celebrated, are there proximity rules which must be applied regardless? Suppose, for example, there are 40 congregants in an area the size of my bedroom… what guidelines are appropriate for where they are to stand? I think this may shed light on how the congregation should have been arranged in a less-constricted environment described in the OP.

 

[daughterofmary]

Your final post is not necessarily germaine to the argument. First of all, the former Fr. Karol Wojtyla was out in the middle of the woods. You don’t have the same set-up. With all due respect, you are trying to force one situation on something that is entirely different. Furthermore, Fr. Wojtyla was celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass at that time, which doesn’t allow for any innovations or nuances. Given his staunch defense of the liturgy (when he became Pope), I seriously doubt that he would have played fast and loose with the rubrics.

Even if the kids were kneeling, their place is still not to kneel around the altar. Their rightful place is with the rest of the faithful, within the assembly.

The only allowances for “creativity” come in the selection of the readings and the propers, and these, by the way, must come from approved texts. You cannot invent your own postures and rubrics. That is prohbited under Redemptionis Sacramentum, the same document that the former Fr. Wojtyla, as Pope John Paul II, commissioned.

Thank you for your response.

I apologise if my words made me sound like I was accusing the late John Paul II of playing fast and loose with the rubrics. It was not my intention.

The kids were not the only ones kneeling around the altar. The only people that were on the retreat were children and five adults. Everyone gathered around the altar and knelt, so in a way I have misrepresented by saying that the kids did it. It was the entire congregation - but the kids were the congregation so I did not clarify. I should have. The five adults did it as well.

So, I guess another question: is it alright for the entire congregation to come around the altar?

 

[benedictgal]

You touch on an interesting issue which I have not heard discussed - if there is a limited area in which a one-time mass is being celebrated, are there proximity rules which must be applied regardless? Suppose, for example, there are 40 congregants in an area the size of my bedroom… what guidelines are appropriate for where they are to stand? I think this may shed light on how the congregation should have been arranged in a less-constricted environment described in the OP.

You must still have the set-up follow the one used in a church as closely as possible. When we had the Mass for the erection of our new diocese and installation of our first bishop, we used the civic center auditorium because of its size. However, the altar was on the stage and the faithful sat in the seats. Furthermore, the GIRM states that:

1. The People of God, gathered for Mass, has a coherent and hierarchical structure, which finds its expression in the variety of ministries and the variety of actions according to the different parts of the celebration. The general ordering of the sacred building must be such that in some way it conveys the image of the gathered assembly and allows the appropriate ordering of all the participants, as well as facilitating each in the proper carrying out of his function.

The faithful and the choir should have a place that facilitates their active participation.114

The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary. Seats for concelebrants should also be prepared there. If, however, their number is great, seats should be arranged in another part of the church, but near the altar.

All these elements, even though they must express the hierarchical structure and the diversity of ministries, should nevertheless bring about a close and coherent unity that is clearly expressive of the unity of the entire holy people. Indeed, the character and beauty of the place and all its furnishings should foster devotion and show forth the holiness of the mysteries celebrated there.

Therefore, Masses celebrated in other venues should reflect this particular set-up.

 

[Seatuck]

Thank you for your response.

I apologise if my words made me sound like I was accusing the late John Paul II of playing fast and loose with the rubrics. It was not my intention.

The kids were not the only ones kneeling around the altar. The only people that were on the retreat were children and five adults. Everyone gathered around the altar and knelt, so in a way I have misrepresented by saying that the kids did it. It was the entire congregation - but the kids were the congregation so I did not clarify. I should have. The five adults did it as well.

So, I guess another question: is it alright for the entire congregation to come around the altar?

No it is not alright. No one is to be in the sanctuary around the altar except the celebrant, co celebrant, deacons, basically those necessary. The role of the faithful is to be kneeling in their pews.

I’m pressed for time right now and can’t find the right resources. Maybe someone else can find the rule about who can be in the sanctuary.

Two of the most noticeable changes with the Life Teen Mass are the cessation of a period during the Mass when teens would normally enter the sanctuary and gather around the altar during the eucharistic prayer. Life Teen also is asking its participating parishes to stop the practice of saying, “The Mass never ends. It must be lived,” at the conclusion of the liturgy.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0404616.htm

 

[Nechasin]

No it is not alright. No one is to be in the sanctuary around the altar except the celebrant, co celebrant, deacons basically those necessary. The role of the faithful is to be in their pews.

But what is considered the sanctuary in this case?

 

[benedictgal]

But what is considered the sanctuary in this case?

Please read my last post. The GIRM lists the hierarchy of arrangment, if you will.

Here it is:

1. The People of God, gathered for Mass, has a coherent and hierarchical structure, which finds its expression in the variety of ministries and the variety of actions according to the different parts of the celebration. The general ordering of the sacred building must be such that in some way it conveys the image of the gathered assembly and allows the appropriate ordering of all the participants, as well as facilitating each in the proper carrying out of his function.

The faithful and the choir should have a place that facilitates their active participation.114

The priest celebrant, the deacon, and the other ministers have places in the sanctuary. Seats for concelebrants should also be prepared there. If, however, their number is great, seats should be arranged in another part of the church, but near the altar.

All these elements, even though they must express the hierarchical structure and the diversity of ministries, should nevertheless bring about a close and coherent unity that is clearly expressive of the unity of the entire holy people. Indeed, the character and beauty of the place and all its furnishings should foster devotion and show forth the holiness of the mysteries celebrated there.

Just observe the Papal Masses at stadiums. There is that sense of being organized. Okay, so there are tens of thousands of people, but, I think the point is quite clear.

 

[Seatuck]

But what is considered the sanctuary in this case?

Most churches have an area that is clearly the sanctuary , often raised up where the altar rests.
From Wickipedia-

A sanctuary is the consecrated area of a church or temple around its tabernacle or altar.

Here’s a little article from Father Hardon why it is so bad.

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0276.html

 

[Digitonomy]

But what is considered the sanctuary in this case?

Unlike a stadium mass, where presumably the stage constitutes the sanctuary, smaller settings may be less clear-cut. I assume from the description in the OP, probably the front of the room would be the sanctuary, or the front of the room less the sides where someone could walk to or from a doorway. I’m interested in whether there are guidelines or precedents regarding more intimate settings, where there is not even room for the chairs recommended by the GIRM.

 

[Nechasin]

Most churches have an area that is clearly the sanctuary , often raised up where the altar rests.

I know what a sanctuary is in a church. However, the Mass that the OP is talking about didn’t take place in a church. Hence there was no area that was clearly marked as a sanctuary. There was no raised area. I agree circling the alter was definitely wrong, but how close to the front of the alter is too close.

 

[Seatuck]

I know what a sanctuary is in a church. However, the Mass that the OP is talking about didn’t take place in a church. Hence there was no area that was clearly marked as a sanctuary. There was no raised area. I agree circling the alter was definitely wrong, but how close to the front of the alter is too close.

I see what you are saying. The description of the youth minister telling the kids to come up is clearly against the rubrics of the Mass no matter where it is being done in a public setting. We aren’t talking about squeezing into a small space so the Chinese government doesn’t find us type of scenario here. This was a pre-arranged retreat where they most likely had time to iron out the logistics of set up.They were close to the priest.Close enough to touch the altar cloth. We aren’t talking about a group set a bit out from the altar but still in front . The instruction to Life Teen made it clear that it is an unacceptable practice.The OP made it clear they had room to kneel at their seats .So this wasn’t done out of lack of space.

 

[Seatuck]

Here is something a more official-

Query: At the presentation of gifts at a Mass with congregation, persons (lay or religious) bring to the altar the bread and wine which are to be consecrated. These gifts are received by the priest celebrant. All those participating in the Mass accompany this group procession in which the gifts are brought forward. They then stand around the altar until communion time. Is this procedure in conformity with the spirit of the law and of the Roman Missal?

Reply: Assuredly, the Eucharistic celebration is the act of the entire community, carried out by all the members of the liturgical assembly. Nevertheless, everyone must have and also must observe his or her own place and proper role: “In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or layperson, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.” (SC art. 29). During the liturgy of the eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers. Notitiae 17 (1981) 61]

ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

 

[daughterofmary]

Thank you to all who replied. This has answered my question. Thank you.