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YoungTradCath
Guest
Oh, I know. I just mean, starting with that part, and all parts thereafter.
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Chris-WA
Guest
The next question I would like to ask is whether or not rock style music is ever appropriate for the holy sacrifice of the mass? The Church makes allowances for different styles of liturgical music, but does the rock-band style push those allowances too far? Is it the right way to go about getting teens in the pews? Or is it too secular and irreverent to be considered suitable for mass?
Before you answer, many of you may not be aware of what our Pope has to say on the subject. I was reading a book by then Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) about the mass and he spoke on pop music and rock music. Here is what he says:
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship.People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
Before you answer, many of you may not be aware of what our Pope has to say on the subject. I was reading a book by then Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) about the mass and he spoke on pop music and rock music. Here is what he says:
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship.People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
- The Spirit of the Liturgy, p. 148
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Look. I think it’s quite inappropriate. But, many people are quite attached to it. Before we have a nineteen page argument on it, this is what it boils down to: you can pretty much play whatever kind of music you want to at mass, as long as father concurs. An extremely liberal interpretation of documents is needed to draw this conclusion, but technically, as long as something doesn’t contain anti-Catholic lyrics and is not sacrilegious, it can be played.
And, it doesn’t really matter what Cardinal Ratzinger said in his book, because that book doesn’t carry any “force” with it. It’s completely opinion. If he were to codify that opinion and release decrees on it or put it into canon law, then his opinions could be enforced. But as it stands now, it’s just opinion.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
This is a problem that I as a parent struggle with. I have worked with teens since I graduated from college and the programs are often at the level of moving a teen from “suffering through confirmation” to having at reasonable level of faith when they leave for college. Which is about where Lifeteen fits in.
My own children are like you describe – more serious and more intellectual. They do not need to be enticed with Christian rock to go to adoration. Since I’m involved with the program, I can ensure that there are events and activities more geared to what they (and a small group of other teens) really are looking for.
It would be nice to have both more regularly, however, with limited funds, adult organization, etc I agree that a Lifeteen type program is where the parish should expend their resources. It is so necessary to reach the larger group who will do little to no study or faith development on their own.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Absolutely a reverent Mass. However, there still has to be a draw of some kind to get unchurched (or underchurced) teens to actually attend. If their parents are only attending every so often, and the teens think church is “lame”, then the sell on a solemn Mass with chant is not going to be easy.
That is why you see so much “hip” music, ice cream and games type activities in youth groups. The first step is to get the teens to come and keep coming. The harder step, and where many groups just can’t quite get to, is to convert those teens into the devout young adults who spend an hour a week in adoration, etc.
We do not get the average 16yo here on CAF, who can barely get up for school and is looking for any excuse to sleep late on a Sunday morning. As a PP said, the teens who have been through a Lifeteen program and are now out of college are shaping up to be devout, reverent, orthodox adults who have a deep love for Christ and his Church. Let’s see what they do!
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Sarabande
Guest
I can completely understand your point. Frankly, if the events and activities after mass were run by more people like you who are concerned about all teens (I am not saying that those who don’t, don’t care. Like I said I think the people who run these are passionate and really believe in what they are doing) at the parish where I had attended LifeTeen as a teenager, I probably would not have had such a bad experience with it. I had always attended mass twice on Sunday anyway… once with my family in the morning and then at the LifeTeen mass, which I always thought was pretty bad, but I tried to make the best out of it because I really wanted it to be something special and good.
I’m wondering, given that the activities, etc. are already formed well, if they could interchange a rockbank-like mass with a more “traditional” mass every once in a while. It wouldn’t cost anything to do something like that, especially towards the middle of the “season”, let’s say. You can have kids and young adults lead the music, like they always did. There were a good number of classically trained musician kids where I went (most of whom were me and my friends). I think we would have loved to have help participate in that way. That way, it could also help ease the other kids into it. Also, another problem I noticed with my LifeTeen program was that although they wanted the kids to participate in the music liturgy, they were not interested in musicians like myself. It was like we represented something totally counter and bad to what they wanted. This was in the mid-90s. As a child, in the 80s and early 90s, this attitude was very prevalent, especially with music. I think it is changing now, though.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Ouch. I wouldn’t dismiss Cardinal Ratzinger’s opinions as easily as you do. In fact, I wouldn’t dismiss them at all. When he takes the time to teach I listen, regardless of whether or not it has been officially enacted into canon law. I certainly am going to give his opinions a heck of a lot more credence than the local Lifeteen music leader.
What people have or have not gotten attached to really doesn’t matter to me. Getting attached to something doesn’t make that something the right thing.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Yes, by all means, have fun youth activities and games for our teens. Eat ice cream. Have youth dances. I’m all for it. Just please don’t mess with the mass. Please don’t turn the mass into a teen Christian rock concert. No one should ever go to any mass and feel offended because of the music. Maybe it’s time to take that into consideration.
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TheMc
Guest
Agreed. I love getting together with friends, having ice cream socials, all that is great.
But tampering with the Mass is not the way to do anything.
While Cardinal Ratzinger’s book may not be official church teaching, neither is anything that by LifeTeen creates. So, with that in mind, who would you go with:
*]Guidelines, suggestions and opinions from a bunch of american youth ministers
*]Opinions from a well read, well studied, high ranking official from the Vatican, who later becomes pope makes liturgical changes in the exact opposite direction as said youth ministers.
I’ll go with number 2 any day. It may not hold the weight of canon law, but neither does number 1.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
But, apparently LifeTeen disagrees, which is sad. The point is that if something’s allowed, somebody’s gonna do it. Things have to be written in stone.
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TheMc
Guest
Indeed, it’s very sad.
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pnewton
Guest
I would not say it doesn’t matter, but such writings do not have any force of law. I think the do serve a valuable role in advising decision makers on the parish level.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
I am not calling for anyone to ‘mess’ with the Mass. I am saying that a teen’s attraction to the church should be just as important as your taste in music. I happen to think Christian pop/rock is some of the worst music out there, because although the lyrics may be fine, they usually aren’t fabulous musicians. I would much rather be at the Gegorian chant Mass with you.
However, having 1 Mass in a schedule of 4-6 Masses be Lifeteen shouldn’t be that offensive. There is much more to Lifeteen than just loud music at Mass. Take a look here at their website.
lifeteen.com/category/relationship-with-god
There are other programs for teens within the church, this one just happens to be well established and obviously popular or we wouldn’t all be talking about it.
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TheMc
Guest
Yet another serious problem with the so-called “Life Teen Mass.” I’d rather have well played hymns than chant sung badly, but by all means, whenever possible, bring on the chant.
But there’s one thing that you’re missing in this discussion. During the Mass, it is not about “our taste of music.” The music is not for us. The music in the Mass is about God. That’s why the propers are preferred over hymns. They are nearly all scripture, or scripturally based.
There may be, but in this thread, we are discussing the “LifeTeen Mass.” I’m sure LT has done much good outside the Mass in their many programs, socials, and catechesis sessions, but the way they treat the Mass is simply unacceptable, and that’s what we’re discussing here.
I am very skeptical of LifeTeen.
I mean no disrespect, but the LT leadership seems to have quite the wrong attitude about the Mass. One small example of this is the dismissal they used to use. Most catholic groups wouldn’t even consider doing something like this. Yes, when Rome told them to stop, they stopped, but the main problem was that Rome had to tell them to stop. The GIRM is clear, they should have never been doing that.
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Chris-WA
Guest
I will say, and I think the magisterium supports this notion, that what is and what is not appropriate music for the divine liturgy has nothing to do with personal taste, but rather on other more objective criteria. There are a number of recent Church documents that cover liturgical music and discuss what it should be. There is no doubt that most parishes have greatly strayed from these ideals over the last several decades. The good news is that some efforts are now being made to correct this. It will take a long time because we have gotten so used to dumbed down music that anyone under the age of 40 probably has no idea. Of course I’m not just talking about rock music at Life Teen masses, but even the stuff we get in the modern missals.
Catholic Answers Live had a radio program last year discussing this very subject. Here is the link and it is definitely worth listening to:
catholic.com/node/5330/4614
I agree that there is much more to Life Teen than the music. But it’s clear to me that rock music is never appropriate for divine liturgy under any circumstances. How many teens it attracts is irrelevent because that is not the purpose of sacred music. If someone on this thread can quote me a church document that says we should pick music based on how many people it would attract to mass, I will change my position. But I don’t think you are going to find that anywhere.
I would hope that those in charge of Life Teen music (and anyone in charge of liturgical music in a parish for that matter) would take the time to revue the Church’s documents on liturgical music and make more of an effort to provide what the Church says sacred music should be.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
My point, though, was to illustrate that hardly anyone is going to heed what he said unless it’s canon law, or is otherwise codified as rule somewhere.
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pnewton
Guest
Some people do, but as you put it next…
The idea of having contemporary music in LifeTeen, or any cultural music in a Mass directed at that culture, is to make the Mass a better worship experience for a targeted group. We forget that the Mass is also about us. The incarnation is about us. Calvary is about us. Ideally, all people in the world would be Saints and capable of perfect worship in any circumstance. However, God knows this ideal is not reality. The Church know this. Thus, we have Sacraments. The are a sense-perceptible sign that convey grace because as fallen human beings, we need things brought to our level or we might never obtain that level of perfect worship. I support the idea of LifeTeen, as long as it is done properly for exactly the same reason that I support the proliferation of a Traditional Mass. There are many who find worship easier in these Masses. There is less distraction for them and they have a better connection to God through a specific style.
Let us not forget the admonition of Philippians 2, we should each desire the good of the other more than ourselves.
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TheMc
Guest
This reasoning is flawed. What would you say that I find it easier to worship at a clown Mass? Or with heavy metal music?
Have you read Pope Benedict’s note on music in the liturgy? I’ll post it again:
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
- The Spirit of the Liturgy, p. 148
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promethius
Guest
And what would you say to the fact that most african cultures find western European music distasteful and disrespectful?
Are they to be forced to worship with songs that they feel do no honor to God?
I would just like to highlight one thing: this was not written by Pope Benedict, but rather by Cardinal Ratzinger before he took on a new name and new authority. Trying to call it “written by a pope” is a bit disingenious because it was written by a Cardinal and has not been reaffirmed or republished by the man who is NOW pope.
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anp1215
Guest
One girl from my old parish answered the Lord’s call and entered religious life this past year. At the same time, the parish made a short video about LifeTeen to post on the website, and she appeared in the video and gave a short interview in which she credited LifeTeen with helping her to answer the call
She came up in front of the congregation before leaving for Michigan in which the priest talked about her vocation and how proud he was of her and then prayed over her. I was so happy and proud of her I got teary eyed. - Status