Lifeteen

[benedictgal]

I agree with the red sentances. Read what I put above. Rap and heavy metal are NOT sutiable for the mass. light rock and jazz are.

Actually, I would invite you to re-read the quote from Pope John Paul II regarding music:

1. In following the course of the teachings of Saint Pius X and of the Second Vatican Council, it is above all necessary to emphasize that music destined for the sacred rites must have as its point of reference sanctity: it in fact “will be the more holy the more closely it is united to the liturgical action”. Precisely because of this, “not all that which stands outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross the threshold”, sagely affirmed my venerated Predecessor Paul VI, commenting upon a decree of the Council of Trent and clarified that “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”.

On the other hand, the category of “sacred music” today has undergone such a broadening of meaning as to include repertoire that cannot enter into the celebration without violating the spirit and the norms of the Liturgy itself.

The reform effected by Saint Pius X had specifically in view the purification of Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music, which in many countries had polluted liturgical music repertoire and praxis. ***This is also to be considered attentively in our times, as I have placed in evidence in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia: that not all expressions of the figurative arts and of music are capable “of adequately expressing the Mystery worshipped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”. ***As a consequence, not all musical forms can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

Just because you hear someone having a Jazz Mass that doesn’t make this kind of genre acceptable for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, nor does it make light rock suitable.

Back in the time of St. Pius X, creative geniuses tried to get opera and theatrical msic into the Mass. The saintly Pontiff squashed that movement with his Motu Propio on Sacred Music. Just because the document is 105 years old doesn’t mean that it is no longer valid, as both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have consistently re-affirmed in their writings and addresses.

 

[palmas85]

Having suffered through endless and I mean endless Lifeteen threads to the point of nausea, I think it safe to point out several things.

Lifeteen supporters will defend the movement vehemently and in loudly support anything and everything that it does. They also equally attack, in a charitable way of course:thumbsup: , any criticism of their beloved movement. The movement itself is pure as the driven snow and while yes there may be an occasional renegade group somewhere they are not real lifeteen people at all. In fact, Lifeteen has monitors that actually travel the country checking into alleged abuses and immediately curtailing them. The Lifeteen movement itself is piously devoted the the Holy Father and immediately and completely carries out the Churches directives without question. Hundreds, no thousands heck maybe hundreds of thousands of vocations have been spawned as a direct result of lifeteen groups and participation in them. Reverent Masses are the norm and recitation of rosaries and adoration is common. Gathering around the Altar, once a staple of Lifeteen Masses has been totally stopped

In short, Lifeteen is the salvation of the Church as we know it.

I think it is high time for all of the Lifeteen detractors to jump on the bandwagon, and I do mean bandwagon. Grab yourself a tambourine or an electric guitar, which incidentally is apparently an integral part of youth culture and join in. BUT, just be sure that the music you play is not Heavy Metal or horrors RAP:bigyikes: , but rather Light Jazz and or Soft Rock:thumbsup:

But wait a minute, since the whole purpose of these Lifeteen Masses is allegedly to bring the kids in, what about all of the poor downtrodden inner city kids to whom Rap is the main medium of expression? Are these kids to be frozen out in favor of Harry Connick Jr and whatever soft rock music is currently popular?

Hey I remember full well the Lifeteen Mass I attended one Saturday several years ago in central San Diego in which Jesus was depicted as doo rag wearing homeboy and the song being played had words as follows

Jesus he my homeboy
Jesus he care about me.

The kids there loved it.

 

[ethelzguy]

But, the music shouldn’t focus itself on the teen worship nor the teens themselves. It’s the danger of celebrating the community that Pope Benedict repeteadly cites as wrong.

The focus should lie on the proper worship of God as manifested in the Church’s highest prayer, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When you make the “teens” more important than the liturgy, when you make them the thrust of what you are doing, then, that is wrong.

Ok. First you tell me that your preferred choice of music at Mass constitutes “Sacred Tradition”, which is pure nonsense.

Now you’re trying to tell me that the choice of music at Mass “shifts” the focus of the worship from God to the worshippers…when it’s not music that you personally like.

Choosing music that teens can relate to as a means of said teens worshipping does not make the teens “more important than the liturgy”, nor does it make them the “thrust” of their purpose at Mass.

I suspect that many of the kids at LifeTeen would be shocked at your accusation.

I sincerely doubt that you can speak to the state of the souls of all those attending LifeTeen, nor their musical intentions.

 

[agapewolf]

Lifeteen supporters will defend the movement vehemently and in loudly support anything and everything that it does. They also equally attack, in a charitable way of course:thumbsup: , any criticism of their beloved movement. The movement itself is pure as the driven snow and while yes there may be an occasional renegade group somewhere they are not real lifeteen people at all. In fact, Lifeteen has monitors that actually travel the country checking into alleged abuses and immediately curtailing them. The Lifeteen movement itself is piously devoted the the Holy Father and immediately and completely carries out the Churches directives without question. Hundreds, no thousands heck maybe hundreds of thousands of vocations have been spawned as a direct result of lifeteen groups and participation in them. Reverent Masses are the norm and recitation of rosaries and adoration is common. Gathering around the Altar, once a staple of Lifeteen Masses has been totally stopped

In short, Lifeteen is the salvation of the Church as we know it.

t.

Your attempt at sarcasm has only served to discredit you further. Actually, adoration with LT teens, as a group, happens about 4-5 times a month in the St. Louis area. That does not count in the individual parishes, as well as the adoration chapels. Some parishes have weekly, or bi-weekly rosaries. (I can give you dates/times/locations. You’ve taken a few examples and stories that people have given and added the “always” or “never” statements…that doesn’t work either.

 

[benedictgal]

Different cultures worship in different ways. If you were to go to Africa, there would probably be dance in the mass because they see it as worship because it is there culture. You wouldn’t see that here in the North America because we don’t see that as worship. This is allowed by the church. Yes it is one church even though we may worship in different ways.

Actually, Cardinal Arinze effectively addressed the issue of dancing, and, incluturation, for that matter:

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so.

Furthermore, inculturation refers to indigenous peoples, not to the so-called youth culture. Inculturation affects missionary lands. Sorry to disappoint you, but, unless you’re out there in no-man’s land, you can’t play the inculturation card with the youth.

 

[ethelzguy]

And, this is coming from the Pontiff who concluded the Second Vatican Council.

Interesting comment. Just what are you trying to imply here?

 

[agapewolf]

Furthermore, inculturation refers to indigenous peoples, not to the so-called youth culture. Inculturation affects missionary lands. Sorry to disappoint you, but, unless you’re out there in no-man’s land, you can’t play the inculturation card with the youth.

Actually, JP II referred to the youth as their own culture. THis is the exact reason that having a youth mass is approved.

 

[ethelzguy]

where do you learn this stuff. WE all need a different Mass, because WE are all different???

I cannot fathom changing the words to “… and I will build a buncha different Churches because ya all are different…”

You do realize that your very words could be equally applied to the TLM crowd?

 

[benedictgal]

Ok. First you tell me that your preferred choice of music at Mass constitutes “Sacred Tradition”, which is pure nonsense.

Now you’re trying to tell me that the choice of music at Mass “shifts” the focus of the worship from God to the worshippers…when it’s not music that you personally like.

Choosing music that teens can relate to as a means of said teens worshipping does not make the teens “more important than the liturgy”, nor does it make them the “thrust” of their purpose at Mass.

I suspect that many of the kids at LifeTeen would be shocked at your accusation.

I sincerely doubt that you can speak to the state of the souls of all those attending LifeTeen, nor their musical intentions.

Actually, your posts confirmed the idea of young people celebrating themselves. The Traditional hymns that I referenced confirm and teach the Sacred truths of the Church. All of St. Thomas Aquinas’ hymns reflect the mysteries of the Eucharist and are theologically, liturgically and spirutally rich, far deeper than anything that OCP publshes on its own.

Furthermore, teaching these songs to the next generation is a very viable means of handing down the Faith. The kind of music used at LifeTeen certainly does not have the Sensus Fideum that these centuries-old hymns carry. There is very little that is theologically, doctrinally and liturgically rich in the CCM pop songs in use at these Masses.

 

[ethelzguy]

Just because you hear someone having a Jazz Mass that doesn’t make this kind of genre acceptable for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, nor does it make light rock suitable.

Nor is it unacceptable simply because benedictgal (or someone like her) doesn’t personally like it. Show me where Jazz or Light Rock is prohibited.

 

[benedictgal]

Interesting comment. Just what are you trying to imply here?

What I am saying is that there is so much talk about the Spirit of Vatican II that when someone who was actually there and is the authority of the Council makes a statement like that, it is easily ignored. Mind you, Pope Paul VI already saw the writing on the wall with regard to Sacred Music.

There is nothing wrong with the OF, nothing at all. It is the misinterpretations of people and movements that have caused the problem. The continual push for banal and insipid music is what is most damaging. These new compliations know nothing of the sacred and are certainly not fitting to cross the threshold that Pope Paul VI referenced in his remarks.

 

[ethelzguy]

Hey I remember full well the Lifeteen Mass I attended one Saturday several years ago in central San Diego in which Jesus was depicted as doo rag wearing homeboy and the song being played had words as follows

Jesus he my homeboy
Jesus he care about me.

The kids there loved it.

And, just like the endless replays on youtube of the clown or puppet Mass…one flake doesn’t make a whole bowl of cereal.

 

[palmas85]

Actually, JP II referred to the youth as their own culture. THis is the exact reason that having a youth mass is approved.

Just because the Holy Father offered his opinion on it doesn’t make it true or binding on anyone.

 

[agapewolf]

Just because the Holy Father offered his opinion on it doesn’t make it true or binding on anyone.

Except when it supports your opinon…

 

[benedictgal]

Nor is it unacceptable simply because benedictgal (or someone like her) doesn’t personally like it. Show me where Jazz or Light Rock is prohibited.

So, the words of Pope John Paul II, Pope St. Pius X, Pope Paul VI and Pope Benedict XVI are not enough for you?

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

Light rock and jazz are perfect for bars, but, these genres “fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy.”

Furthermore, read what this document has to say:

As regards the heritage that has been handed down those parts which correspond to the needs of the renewed Liturgy should first be brought to light. Competent experts in this field must then carefully consider whether other parts can be adapted to the same needs. As for those pieces which do not correspond to the nature of the Liturgy or cannot be harmonized with the pastoral celebration of the Liturgy – they may be profitably transferred to popular devotions, especially to celebrations of the word of God.39

This comes from Musicam Sacram, which has not been abrogated.

 

[MrS]

You do realize that your very words could be equally applied to the TLM crowd?

so apply it

and do tell… what is it about the TLM that is “different” from…
from

from

from…

Ethel… help, what is the point your guy is trying to make?

 

[palmas85]

And, just like the endless replays on youtube of the clown or puppet Mass….one flake doesn’t make a whole bowl of cereal.

Are you comparing Lifeteen members at an inner city gathering to a bunch of flakes That won;t do:tsktsk:

While the analogy is certainly clear, lucid and highly descriptive of many of the Lifeteen advocates, I think they would be highly offended at being called a bunch of flakes

And to top it off, the kids loved the homeboy aspect of Jesus in the hood. I say accept them in their diversity and let them envision Christ as they want to. After all, they are on their own spiritual journey as we all are, correct? Lifeteen aids them on this spiritual quest, correct? So whats the big deal?

Why I’ve heard of vocations coming from such things. You know, like MS 13 gangbangers dropping their affiliation to become inner city priests after Lifeteen experiences such as the one described.

Its all good,

 

[palmas85]

Except when it supports your opinon…

Still doesn’t make it right:thumbsup:

All it really means is that two people have the same opinion.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, Cardinal Arinze refereed to inculturation during his address to the FDLC in San Antonio. Surprise, surprise. He directed it towards indigenous peoples, which is what the focus of inculturation is, not on youth.

***The danger is that some people seem to think that inculturation in the liturgy encourages free and uncontrolled creativity. They imagine that according to Vatican II the progressive, modern and enlightened thing to do in liturgical celebrations is to be creative, to be original, to introduce something new, to do it yourself. *** Pope John Paul writes that "it must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation, there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many " (EE, no. 52).

The truth is that genuine inculturation has nothing to do with the product of the over-fertile imagination of an enthusiastic priest who concocts something on Saturday night and inflicts it on the innocent Sunday morning congregation now being used as a guinea pig. True and lasting inculturation demands long study, discussions among experts in interdisciplinary platforms, examination and decision by Bishops, recognitio from the Apostolic See and prudent presentation to the people of God. Moreover, it should be noted that in religious matters, people’s sensitivity and piety can easily be hurt by ill-considered and hasty novelties. In religious practices, most people are understandably conservative in the good sense and unwilling to endure frequent changes.

Even when we give the hasty innovator the benefit of the doubt, that the motivation is a sincere attempt to bring the liturgy home to the people, it remains true that the results are generally disastrous. Unapproved innovations distract and annoy the people. They often draw attention to the priest rather than to God. They generally do not last long. They are often superficial. And they scandalize because they run against Church norms and regulations. If many lay people had only one request to make, they would ask that the priest celebrate Mass, or other rites, simply according to the approved books. Many lay faithful complain that rarely do they find two priests celebrating the Eucharistic sacrifice in the same way. ***The Roman liturgy is not a free-for-all experimentation field where each celebrant has the option to tag on his cherished accretions. Repeated and laid-down action is part of ritual. The people are not tired of it, as long as the celebrant is full of faith and devotion and has the proper ars celebrandi (art of how to celebrate). ***

Although the folks were clapping that day, the next day, it was business as usual. It was as though the words slipped off like water off a duck.

Well, if there are those who want to play the inculturation card, then, it works both ways, as Cardinal Arinze’s remarks pointed out. It can work for the good and also for the bad.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

So, the words of Pope John Paul II, Pope St. Pius X, Pope Paul VI and Pope Benedict XVI are not enough for you?

Light rock and jazz are perfect for bars, but, these genres “fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy.”

Furthermore, read what this document has to say:

This comes from Musicam Sacram, which has not been abrogated.

No they fail to resepct it to you. They would have just come out and said no music beside sacred music should be used. There is a time and place for sacred music.