Lightly stepping around the table of the Lord

[Ani_Ibi]

Yes. The reference here is to the 4 cups used in the Jewish Passover. Scott Hahn does a nice job of describing the Last Supper in relation to the Passover and the cups: The Fourth Cup

Three times he fell down to the ground and said to his Father, he cried out. “Abba, Father!” The most intimate of terms. “All things are possible to Thee. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt.” Remove this cup. Take away this cup.

Nice. Very very nice. This cup would have been the fourth cup which they had not shared at the Last Supper Seder meal.

I had not noticed that. I am wonderstruck at all the aspects of the Eucharist. It engages me so completely. Just draws me in. I get goosebumps, chills, and the hair stands up on my arms just saying ‘the fourth cup.’

I love the fourth cup! This is a great link. Thank you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

From Scott Hahn:

Well, go back to the Old Testament, to the book of Exodus. Suppose that night as head of my household and father, I sacrificed an unblemished lamb with no broken bones, and I sprinkled his blood on the door post, and then I said, "Family, we’re safe, let’s go to bed’, and we went to bed.

I’d wake up in the morning to tragedy. My firstborn would be dead.

Why? You had to eat the lamb. It isn’t enough to kill him. That is the satisfaction for sin, but the ultimate goal of sacrifice is not blood and gore and God making sure He sees the death. The ultimate goal is to restore communion, to have fellowship with God restored. And that’s what’s signified by eating the lamb.

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

I got this feeling as I was reading along in Hahn that maybe I would miss something. I need to live long enough to learn all sorts of things. Not because I am worried about not being saved. Because those things I want to learn are so interesting! They are a delight to read. They are to my mind what wandering in a summer forest is to my senses. Bliss!

 

[Nita]

continued…
Dear Nita,
ONE OFFERING, ONCE.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 9:

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Jesus is not the victim, He is the victor!

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

:

I’m very familiar with and love all the quotes you gave. They’re very Catholic. For this post I’m narrowing the focus to the above passages. I’m assuming you gave them in reference to the Mass.

A major problem is often not knowing what we believe. So will try and explain the Sacrifice of the Mass to the best of my ability – but please keep in mind, it is a supernatural mystery and any explanation falls short.

Sacrificial worship began in the OT by God’s decree. Examining those sacrifices aids in understanding the NT sacrifice, which fulfilled them all. Altho the preparation of the OT offering played a part (eg. baking of loaves; killing of animals, etc), what was presented to God was the prepared offering. The preparation was done outside the place of offering.
Applying this to the NT offering, Jesus was crucified not only outside the gates of Jerusalem, but also outside the true Holy of Holies (heaven). He was crucified/sacrificed once for all time, for all mankind, and rose immortal. This is the eternal offering Jesus presents to His Father in the true Holy of Holies.

Revelations 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, … (John is seeing this long after the day of resurrection)

He is both our immortal High Priest and Victim/offering – and therefore will never be replaced (unlike the OT High Priest and the OT sacrificial offerings which were subject to corruption and decay).

The** mystery of “time”** – what is the relationship of the eternal “now” taking place in heaven to the linear time we experience? For we live in time; we sin in time; we need the grace of Our Lord’s sacrifice made present to us in time.
Jesus chose to make His eternal heavenly offering present to us here in time through a ritual which He instituted at the Last Supper. There also, He instituted an earthly priesthood to carry out this visible rite (Mass) here on earth. “Do this in memory of Me." In the Mass we are united and join in the heavenly worship, the heavenly offering of Our Lord. We fulfil the prophecy of Malachi:

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

[My personal way of imaging it is to see the eternal, heaven, inserted into time in the sanctuary at Church; and simultaneously the temporal (sanctuary and time) being drawn up into the eternal.]

There is only one pure offering – Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He does not die again; neither does He leave the Holy of Holies and reenter again. What He does do is make present here on earth the one time “pure offering” of His Body and Blood given up for us on Calvary - whenever (“from the rising of the sun to its setting”) and wherever (“in every place”) Mass is celebrated.

I’m not asking you to accept the above. Rather, just to see how what we believe does not contradict any of the passages you cited.


Nita

 

[Nita]

…I have been reading and listening to the Gospel of John regularly for quite a few years now. It is my favourite…happened quite by chance…
:

That’s my favorite book also. My love of it started years ago when I was only a little girl. At the very end of every Mass the first part of John 1 was read. I loved it - “In the beginning was the Word…” - it seemed almost like poetry to me. It is no longer part of the Mass and I miss it.

…and I have never got tired of it…As he said, ‘my words are spirit and life’, you can literally eat them over and over and there is never a boring moment

Like you, it never ceases to amaze me how I can read Scripture over and over and never get tired of it. Only rarely can I read a book through more than once and still enjoy it - and I can’t think of a single one where I could read from it daily and still enjoy it.


Nita

 

[JimG]

“Amen Amen I say to you,
If you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood,
you have no life in you.
He who feeds on my flesh
and drinks my blood,
has life eternal,
and I will raise him up on the last day.”
----John 6:52-54

“From this time on, many of his disciples broke away
and would not remain in his company any longer.”
----John 6:66.

Ever since Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse in John 6, doubters have been breaking away and refusing to remain in his company, because of this teaching.
But he did not call them back.

 

[Pophead]

I’m not asking you to accept the above. Rather, just to see how what we believe does not contradict any of the passages you cited.


Nita

Thanks Nita,
I understand what you are saying. Just the small matter of Victim/offering. Jesus did not regard himself as a victim and neither did God the father. He layed down His life. Remember Jesus’ words. Greater love hath no man, than to lay down His life for His friends, and He says, ‘I have power to lay it down and to take it up again.’ There is another word beginning with a ‘V’ that better describes Jesus ‘paid in full’ - completely paid in full - the gospel - Victor.

I understand the time aspect. St John says, ‘We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.’ also, ‘if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleases/washes us clean from all sin.’ (I think I got my references a bit jumbled up, but I hope you get the meaning.)

I think the idea is to confess the sin to the High Priest, not via an agency, be it the Eucharistic feast, or the Mass, but to the High Priest direct, after all he ever lives to make intercession on our behalf, our advocate and the faithful priest of the order of Melchizadek.

Nice post.

 

[Pophead]

That’s my favorite book also. My love of it started years ago when I was only a little girl. At the very end of every Mass the first part of John 1 was read. I loved it - “In the beginning was the Word…” - it seemed almost like poetry to me. It is no longer part of the Mass and I miss it.

Now we have a similar experience. My first experiences of what I now call, ‘The Rememberance’ were very moving. I recall on one occassion as we all sat very still (a crowd of about 200) and there was this light sobbing from somewhere near the back of the hall. The sobbing grew and grew but not loud, it was deep, deep churning sob and as I sat the Spirit of Christ made me aware that it was He who was weeping over the entire gathering. Such moments I cherish in my memory. I cried too.

Like you, it never ceases to amaze me how I can read Scripture over and over and never get tired of it. Only rarely can I read a book through more than once and still enjoy it - and I can’t think of a single one where I could read from it daily and still enjoy it.


Nita

Yes For many years I would just read the book of Colossians. I literally devoured it, but all with the power of reason. I would do this to most of Scripture. I had not learned to just let His words flow into me, instead of trying to systematize everything. At first I put it on tape, no mp3 player back then and I would pray first asking the Lord to allow me to be open etc. I learned that His word is as you say, ‘like poetry’ for me it was like ‘music’ and like any song, it had parts that would literally leap out and enlighten my heart, and top up my innermost being. Paul talks about, ‘letting the word of Christ dwell richly in you’ and in the same context, ‘be ye continually filled with the Spirit.’ Being a musician I have found that often these times would result in a new jnsight and hence a new song.

The other aspect of feeding on the Lamb of God, is down to what Father Thomas Merton called, ‘contemplative prayer’, I have a slightly different take, but I believe emphatically on having what we use to call ‘A Quiet Time’. A time in the closet, just finding that really inner silent place to intimately fellowship with Christ.

There are so many books about this, and I have heard of Bro. Lawrence and Madame Guyon, Rees Howells…etc. etc. So many with a step by step detail of how to get into that place of actually hearing the voice of the Spirit of Christ. I have learned that though we can prepare our hearts to be receptive, it is He who comes into our hearts over and over again, through the gospel. The gospel is profoundly tough and of all truth is so well documented in Scripture that it can simply be recited. I used to have and album by Father John Michael Talbot, with the bread and the wine on the cover called ‘…’ it was really good at presenting the Gospel.

It does seem a bit of a problem that the Gospel has been lost since about the 2nd century. Though it is in the early copies of the original autographs, in our day and age not many have a pure understanding of the gospel. I think it is St. Paul, who says, ‘it is a faithful saying Jesus Christ died for sinners.’ The one I personally enjoy is 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 it is right on the button. I was amazed to learn that Dr. Francis Schaeffer (in the Lord’s presense now), had actually come to Christ by reading the Old Testament. So the Gospel is in the Old Testament, and as I read there are as Jesus opened those men on the road to Emmaus, and explained everything concerning himself, beginning with Moses…amazing, and the result…their hearts burned within them. Being in the presense of the Risen Son (we are) and Him opening His word, to our hearts, we burn, we are satiated, we are sustained. As it is impossible to know the contents of a picture, as the originator thought it, we need the Scripture with the rememberance, to bring His colouring pen to our hearts and minds…often in ‘The Rememberance’ the Spirit of Christ would bring us to this memory of the Gospel, and being yet an innocent, I never really understood the deep relevance of those times, it is only now when I do meditate upon what the Lord has done, that I too can weep again and rejoice at His resurrection and victory over the devil, sin and the world. He is our Victor!

 

[Pophead]

…doubters have been breaking away and refusing to remain in his company, because of this teaching.
But he did not call them back.

In this particular incident, I agree.

However, remember that upon the cross Jesus said, ‘It is finished’ - paid in full. He had done everything the Father commanded and remember Gethsemane, how he prayed, ‘Not my will, but Thy will be done’. Remember how He appeared in the garden after the resurrection and how stunned was Mary, nearly tripping over her feet, she went and told the others. They were not so convinced, hiding away, scattered sheep. The Son of God appears to them and they are afraid, they did not ever recognize their beloved Master. Remember how Thomas doubted and how the Master revealed the wound in his side and how Thomas worshipped Him. Remember how at the ascension the angels said He would return, Remember how St. Stephen being martyred looked up and saw the Master at the right hand of the Father. Remember what St. John wrote about our fellowship now being with the Risen Son and the Father, and remember Jesus words to the hardly escaping disciples, it is expedient that I go. Remember how they struggled with his words, as you appear to be too. Remember how Jesus said, ‘I am the pathway/the way’ and remember how on the day of Pentecost He fulfilled the words about His Spirit not just being with you, but in you. It is this fullness out of which Jesus said to the woman at the well of Summaria…remember, how He said, this well will be in you. His words are spirit and they are life, but unless the Scriptures are quickened to your heart, you will always be attempting to assemble your meaning purely from reason alone. Remember Jesus said, ‘in remembrance’. Remember that it is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing.

Remember St. Paul’s prayer:

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.

Amen.

Remember ?

This is a wonderful word, ‘remember’ and the writer in Ecclesiastes, makes a point that we are inclined to do exactly the opposite, we forget and just incase we got the entire thing wrong and mixed it all up, remember He sent the Spirt to teach, remind, encourage and comfort us. Remembering is what this is all about…if we are only participating in this thread and not actually remembering right now what Jesus did. The Gospel. The price paid in full. Once for all.

Remember!

 

[Nita]

Thanks Nita,
I understand what you are saying. Just the small matter of Victim/offering. Jesus did not regard himself as a victim and neither did God the father. He layed down His life. Remember Jesus’ words. Greater love hath no man, than to lay down His life for His friends, and He says, ‘I have power to lay it down and to take it up again.’ There is another word beginning with a ‘V’ that better describes Jesus ‘paid in full’ - completely paid in full - the gospel - Victor.

I understand the time aspect. St John says, ‘We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.’ also, ‘if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleases/washes us clean from all sin.’ (I think I got my references a bit jumbled up, but I hope you get the meaning.)

I think the idea is to confess the sin to the High Priest, not via an agency, be it the Eucharistic feast, or the Mass, but to the High Priest direct, after all he ever lives to make intercession on our behalf, our advocate and the faithful priest of the order of Melchizadek.

Nice post.

I think I see the problem. We have different definitions for “victim”. In no way did I mean Jesus did not have control of His life. He could had ended His passion and death at any point; every split second was a conscious decision on His part to continue! (Something that would be impossible for us). That is awesome to me; love beyond bounds.

I’m not sure whether official Church language uses the term “victim” or not. My meaning is that it is an offering that included the giving up - sacrifice - of life. Jesus chose to lay down His life for us - become a “victim” for us. He became the NT fulfillment of the OT lamb victim

Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man came …, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Mt 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Would welcome any info by others regarding use of the word “victim” - whether it’s applicable to Jesus in His offering of His life.

Regarding our sacrament of Confession:
John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Every verse is full and can be pondered individually first - then connected and pondered as a whole.

But I think you were questioning more the forgiveness of sin that takes place during Mass. You quoted the Catechism earlier, and if you read the full paragraphs you cited, you know that it is only less serious (venial) sin that is forgiven/removed when we receive the Eucharist (Para #1394). Mortal sin must be confessed in Confession. We believe the Eucharist is Jesus - so it is Jesus who is “wiping away venial sins” (#1394)
[Just a side point - #1395 that you earlier quoted says the Eucharist “preserves us from future mortal sins”. “Preserve” is understood as “protect” - not as absolutely prevents. In other words, it is still possible for us to choose to sin seriously.]

For more on the Mass as sacrifice, you might read the following paragraphs in the Catechism: #1076, #1084 - 1109.
(eg. from #1084 “Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace.)


Nita

 

[Nita]

Now we have a similar experience. My first experiences of what I now call, ‘The Rememberance’ were very moving. I recall on one occassion as we all sat very still (a crowd of about 200) and there was this light sobbing from somewhere near the back of the hall. The sobbing grew and grew but not loud, it was deep, deep churning sob and as I sat the Spirit of Christ made me aware that it was He who was weeping over the entire gathering. Such moments I cherish in my memory. I cried too.

Yes For many years I would just read the book of Colossians. I literally devoured it, but all with the power of reason. I would do this to most of Scripture. I had not learned to just let His words flow into me, instead of trying to systematize everything. At first I put it on tape, no mp3 player back then and I would pray first asking the Lord to allow me to be open etc. I learned that His word is as you say, ‘like poetry’ for me it was like ‘music’ and like any song, it had parts that would literally leap out and enlighten my heart, and top up my innermost being. Paul talks about, ‘letting the word of Christ dwell richly in you’ and in the same context, ‘be ye continually filled with the Spirit.’ Being a musician I have found that often these times would result in a new jnsight and hence a new song.

The other aspect of feeding on the Lamb of God, is down to what Father Thomas Merton called, ‘contemplative prayer’, I have a slightly different take, but I believe emphatically on having what we use to call ‘A Quiet Time’. A time in the closet, just finding that really inner silent place to intimately fellowship with Christ.

There are so many books about this, and I have heard of Bro. Lawrence and Madame Guyon, Rees Howells…etc. etc. So many with a step by step detail of how to get into that place of actually hearing the voice of the Spirit of Christ. I have learned that though we can prepare our hearts to be receptive, it is He who comes into our hearts over and over again, through the gospel. The gospel is profoundly tough and of all truth is so well documented in Scripture that it can simply be recited. I used to have and album by Father John Michael Talbot, with the bread and the wine on the cover called ‘…’ it was really good at presenting the Gospel.

It does seem a bit of a problem that the Gospel has been lost since about the 2nd century. Though it is in the early copies of the original autographs, in our day and age not many have a pure understanding of the gospel. I think it is St. Paul, who says, ‘it is a faithful saying Jesus Christ died for sinners.’ The one I personally enjoy is 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 it is right on the button. I was amazed to learn that Dr. Francis Schaeffer (in the Lord’s presense now), had actually come to Christ by reading the Old Testament. So the Gospel is in the Old Testament, and as I read there are as Jesus opened those men on the road to Emmaus, and explained everything concerning himself, beginning with Moses…amazing, and the result…their hearts burned within them. Being in the presense of the Risen Son (we are) and Him opening His word, to our hearts, we burn, we are satiated, we are sustained. As it is impossible to know the contents of a picture, as the originator thought it, we need the Scripture with the rememberance, to bring His colouring pen to our hearts and minds…often in ‘The Rememberance’ the Spirit of Christ would bring us to this memory of the Gospel, and being yet an innocent, I never really understood the deep relevance of those times, it is only now when I do meditate upon what the Lord has done, that I too can weep again and rejoice at His resurrection and victory over the devil, sin and the world. He is our Victor!

It’s been almost 20 years now since I experienced a very distinctive call to prayer. It has been a great gift from Our Lord. It was in quiet prayer before the tabernacle when I first experienced the almost overwhelming desire to be “one with Him” (don’t know how else to describe it). It was then that I understood the “why” of the Eucharist; His desire to be “one with us”; to “abide in us” and us in Him.


Nita

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Now if Jesus meant that we should eat his actual body and blood, then why did use so many words to describe something that has resulted in mountains of bodies, piled to the sky. If we make the command literal…eat me, body and blood; then we will have ignored the context of the entire book of John, and the full body of Jesus teaching, **that God is Spirit, and they who worship Him must do so in spirit and truth ? **

God is, indeed, spirit – but the Incarnation made him man, too. The redemption Jesus won for us was not merely for the sake of our souls, but for our whole humanity. We are physical beings; we do not seek to leave behind the flesh, but to redeem it along with our souls. In the end, we will be reunited to our bodies; we don’t ultimately leave them behind.

The Eucharist is a wonderful reminder of that, because our sullied bodies consume the unblemished body of the Lamb of God, thus bringing grace of his body and soul to our bodies and souls.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Pophead]

I think I see the problem. We have different definitions for “victim”.

Yes, Nita. I believe this as well. ‘Christ died (laid down his life) for our sins according to the Scriptures.’ (DRB) – I Corinthians 15:3
‘Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.’ (Hebrews 12:2) - DRB

Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:6-8) – DRB (…therefore God highly exalted him, giving Jesus a name that is above all names….ready to bow…?) – something I do whenever I get there.

He despised the shame. He emptied himself. Took the form of a servant. He humbled himself.
Even though Jesus showed human weaknesses, in the end ‘he laid down his life’ I do understand the idea of Hebrew sacrifice. However there is a big difference, He was not only the sacrifice but the High Priest. On the cross, he utters the words, ‘It is finished’ and then He committed His spirit into the hands of the Father. I have often wondered about Jesus saying, ‘And I take it again’ considering that He was now physically dead. We know that Scripture records that God raised Jesus from the dead. I think what we find hard to understand is that when the name Jesus and God and Father are used in these ways, we are considering the Godhead, and so it is infact quite true that God was manifest in the flesh, and so it was that God died, we know this was the Son of God, but no doubt this was a body that would be resurrected and go on being a testimony in heaven forever. Also we know that the blood that was bled on the cross was then immediately testified to by the eternal Spirit in the heavenlies…(Angelic rejoicing on that day)…and with this came then the need for the prophecy to be fulfilled that God would resurrect the body of the Son of God on the third day. Quite significant that He takes a body into heaven….still carrying the scars and marks…and is still called the Lamb of God, who sits in the throne. Great is the mystery of godliness…we are right inside the most significant mystery…what the mystical writer Rudolph Steiner called, ‘The Mystery of Golgotha’, though I am not sure he shared the same insights we are. It is always clear to me that the High Priest (Jesus) is also the sacrifice (The Lamb). Sacrificing himself is then not really being a victim, but instead He is doing what no Priest before or after could do and that is atoning for the sins of those who are given to Him, by the Father.

continues in next comment…

 

[Pophead]

Regarding our sacrament of Confession:

Oh, Nita. I have huge difficulties with the Eucharist and the Mass, but I do not expect that anyone will be willing to really take me seriously on this forum. I am not a Catholic, though I had a sweet Catholic Grandmother, and other relatives who are. Since I was a little boy of three or four, I have always taken my prayers to gentle, Jesus meek and mild. When I first learned the Gospel, I could recite it with fair force, but it never really meant much to me. Like you I was influenced by the religious ideas of various creeds and they seemed to make sense, but when I really understood the Gospel, I realized that my sins were taken by Jesus on the cross, 2000 + years ago. I also understood that the Gospel was a complete offering. I think that most of the reason why folks get trapped in the ideas of additional sacraments, is because they have not really understood that what the High Priest did was final, and that there remains no further offering for sins, for those who wilfully sin, they cannot be atoned for again and again, it is not like the Jewish idea. It is once and if you sin, you will need to repent and receive forgiveness from the advocate (Jesus). The blood of the Lamb, cannot be shed again and again. Once need to really be very careful with this type of thinking for it means that one offering is not enough, this would be underestimating the completed work of the cross, and ultimately show that one has not yet understood the Gospel. It seems that there has been a veil cast over the eyes of man who adhere to tradition, but fail to realize they are attatching baggage to the message of the Gospel, that was never part of the original teaching of the Gospel. There seems to be almost a blindness that existed from the second century onwards and very few these days really understand what you mean when you say the Gospel. They will give you God’s work, and then mix in their work, and call it God’s work. Jesus did the will of the Father, and the only time Jesus was confronted about what we are to do, He said simply, ‘Believe on the one whom He hath sent.’ I guess that is why I have never really been convinced of baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist or the Mass. (just too much that is called what Jesus did, when 1 Corinthians 15:3,4) is pretty final.

Pophead, retires.

 

[Pophead]

It’s been almost 20 years now since I experienced a very distinctive call to prayer. It has been a great gift from Our Lord. It was in quiet prayer before the tabernacle when I first experienced the almost overwhelming desire to be “one with Him” (don’t know how else to describe it). It was then that I understood the “why” of the Eucharist; His desire to be “one with us”; to “abide in us” and us in Him.


Nita

Yes, Nita. How the Spirit of Christ comes to be in man is a mystery, we will never understand. One guy says, ‘Eureka, I have found it,’ but then you later on find out that there is no indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ. Just endless rituals that are meant to give you what is priceless. Buying the gift of God is silly, and the shelves are filled to over flowing with books by ancient sages, early church fathers, giving their system… prophets, priests, soothsayer, mystics, you name it all have a system they say, now just do this and gauranteed you will have the magic power within, nice car, plenty of friends, great church fellowship, promotion and whatever…when one has a closer look, or rather inspects the idea closer it always ends up originating in something that they claim was communicated to them by aliens, or a gaurdian spirit, or Nostradamus, or the tooth fairy, or Santa Claus, or God in person, or in some cases the Devil…in the end one sees it always traces back to a person saying, they have the system given to them from this one, who got it from this one, who got it from that one, who got it straight from God, though some are more bold these days, saying I got it from God. You read it and it is not the Gospel, it is their own idea. It is that old need to have the glory that is at the root of these brilliant ideas…yet the Gospel is a completed work, once. Finis. God stretched down His hand…God did it…His plan… Man has to attach some ritual or ceremony, so that He can extract cash, and keep a business going…or just get a pat on the back, well you guys really have the answer…Heaven forbid that one says, I have no idea how the Spirit of Christ came to dwell in me, but I know God did it.

Well, that is for me Nita. I pray that the Lord continues to lead you into such intimate times of prayer.

Cia for now.

 

[Pophead]

God is, indeed, spirit – but the Incarnation made him man, too. The redemption Jesus won for us was not merely for the sake of our souls, but for our whole humanity. We are physical beings; we do not seek to leave behind the flesh, but to redeem it along with our souls. In the end, we will be reunited to our bodies; we don’t ultimately leave them behind.

Hi Dante,
Yes, ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. No doubt we are now on the subject of the resurrection. Those who have worshipped Him in spirit and truth in this life, will most certainly be re-united with a glorious new body. But if we have not the Spirit of Christ, we are none of His.

The Eucharist is a wonderful reminder of that, because our sullied bodies consume the unblemished body of the Lamb of God, thus bringing grace of his body and soul to our bodies and souls.

Peace,
Dante

Well, that is a theory. I am not really sure it is borne out by the Scriptures. Maybe someday we will know that for sure. Personally, I think it is just a system thought up by those who were unable to accurately interpret the true spirit of Christ’s teachings, for this you need to have the Spirit of Christ and will need to be extremely objective about your study of the Gospel of John.

Peace right back atcha’ kid.

Cia, Pophead.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pophead:

However, remember that upon the cross Jesus said, ‘It is finished’ - paid in full.

To say this, you would have had to have not read the link which mtr01 posted on Scott Hahn’s the Fourth Cup. “It is finished” refers to the finishing of the Passover. Jesus offers the fourth cup to those who follow him. Unless we drink from it, we will die.

Why would the interpretation of the fourth cup suddenly change in the Reformation?

Are you reading what folks post? Or just skimming over them and singlemindedly promoting your own point of view? My understanding is that this is a discussion board. So we read what others post and respond to the points they make.

 

[Pophead]

Are you reading what folks post? Or just skimming over them and singlemindedly promoting your own point of view? My understanding is that this is a discussion board. So we read what others post and respond to the points they make.

Hello to you to Ani lbi. I would love to respond to all the posts but that would take hours and hours, which I just don’t have. I will certainly go back and read when I do have time, but for now I am sure you will attract some attention from others on the board. This is a very well attended board. Yes?



ps. I guess chorus of hysterical icons, just put me off. Hey ?

 

[JimG]

The blood of the Lamb, cannot be shed again and again. Once need to really be very careful with this type of thinking for it means that one offering is not enough, this would be underestimating the completed work of the cross,

Yes, Catholics would agree with you here. Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is once for all, a completed sacrifice for the salvation of all mankind.

The Eucharist does not repeat this sacrifice, it makes it present to you and me today. It makes the once for all sacrifice of Christ present and living in every age and every place–an everlasting source of grace, for it is Christ himself.

 

[Pophead]

Yes, Catholics would agree with you here. Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is once for all, a completed sacrifice for the salvation of all mankind.

Hi JimG,
once…a completed sacrifice…

(all, all mankind ?) < whoops is this what I think it is ? Okay, another time on that one.

The Eucharist does not repeat this sacrifice, it makes it present to you and me today. It makes the once for all sacrifice of Christ present and living in every age and every place–an everlasting source of grace, for it is Christ himself.

Consciously remembering is not that difficult considering there is an historical record of the event. The Gospel. Also remember that Jesus said, ‘it is expedient that I go…’ Why? So that the gift of the Spirit of Christ might be given to those who come by the Father teaching, to the Son, and believe. This is how were have our thirst quenched and our hunger satiated…not much more after that…the table then is simply a wonderful rememberance and celebration of something that was concluded…long, long, long ago. < another time gotta blow in the wind, if you know what I mean.

 

[JimG]

Consciously remembering is not difficult.

But making present is what Jesus accomplishes in the Eucharist.