Lightly stepping around the table of the Lord

[Ani_Ibi]

Pophead:

Hello to you to Ani lbi. I would love to respond to all the posts but that would take hours and hours, which I just don’t have.

If you are unable to participate in a discussion, then why enter into one?

Pophead:

I will certainly go back and read when I do have time, but for now I am sure you will attract some attention from others on the board.

I believe I addressed my comments to you, not to others on the board.

Pophead:

ps. I guess chorus of hysterical icons, just put me off. Hey ?

Take it up with the forum administrators who made the ikons available to posters.

 

[Pophead]

If you are unable to participate in a discussion, then why enter into one?

Nasty, nasty.

 

[Pophead]

But making present is what Jesus accomplishes in the Eucharist.

That is what you believe.

 

[Pophead]

The Eucharist does not repeat this sacrifice, it makes it present to you and me today. It makes the once for all sacrifice of Christ present and living in every age and every place–an everlasting source of grace, for it is Christ himself.

Just something to consider Jim.

Yet Scripture presents Christ’s atonement as “having obtained eternal redemption” (Heb. 9:12). He did not obtain six months or six day redemption but eternal redemption, since in the past by Calvary “we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ” (Heb. 10:10). And by this past, historical “offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified” or set apart (Heb. 10:14). Because God’s people have by Christ’s perfect and complete atoning work received this forgiveness, “there is no longer any offering for sin” (Heb. 10:18). Given these glorious truths, Calvin was absolutely correct when he declared, “The cross of Christ is overthrown as soon as the altar is set up.” Hence, the theology of the Roman Eucharist, even granting the “single-act-through-time” rejoinder, still grossly distorts and diminishes Christ’s atoning work. Given these constraints, Scripture cannot conceive of the Eucharist as a sacrifice.

 

[JimG]

Surely Scripture conceives of Calvary as a sacrifice?

Calvary and the Eucharist are one.

 

[Pophead]

Surely Scripture conceives of Calvary as a sacrifice?

Calvary and the Eucharist are one.

The sun is the moon ?

 

[LilyM]

The sun is the moon ?

Not a bit of it.

Jesus in the Last Supper says the bread is ‘my body, given for you’. He being God incarnate, it’s unpardonably rude to take Him at less than His word.

So where is it that He gave His body? Calvary, of course.

The wine is ‘the new covenant in my blood, shed for you and many for the forgiveness of sins.’

Where did he shed his blood? Calvary, of course.

The Eucharist is Calvary. QED.

 

[Pophead]

The Eucharist is Calvary. QED.

Well Lily,

I have had a think about this and this is my final conclusion on the matter. Take it or leave it, it is what I believe:

‘I do believe that Jesus is very emphatic when he first talks to the rabbi Nicodemus, who cannot follow his words…and then the woman at the well of Summaria who cannot follow his words, here in the sixth chapter of John, again not even his followers can eat and drink his words (it was not the first time…all through the Gospel, people just don’t get Jesus…because they are still carnal…and unable to reason a mature adults in Christ.) This whole thing brings to mind the words of Isaiah the prophet, ‘seeing the see not, and hearing they hear not.’ I have read John’s Gospel many times and not once did I feel the need to eat or drink Jesus physically. It is not a symbol, it is a complete blindness to His words…He is speaking of His Spirit, both to Nicodemus and to the woman at the well, and to the disciples here are mumbling among one another (are we any different with our Cephas, Apollos, Paul…instead of all things are ours because of Christ). If we have not the Spirit we are none of His and certainly the reason why we are stumbling over the Cornerstone.’

Like the Beatles song, ‘…life is very short and there’s no time…for fussing and fighting my friend…’ The Spirit of Christ can and will open the eyes of your heart, when He is ready, for now I am off to bed and done with this thread.

 

[JimG]

Well Lily,

I have had a think about this and this is my final conclusion on the matter. Take it or leave it, it is what I believe:

Are you sure you don’t mean: “This sort of talk is hard to endure! How can anyone take it seriously?” (John 6:60)

After that they would no longer remain in his company.

 

[adrift]

Originally Posted by Pophead View Post
Well Lily,

I have had a think about this and this is my final conclusion on the matter. Take it or leave it, it is what I believe:

Yet you have not addressed the last Supper

22 While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.”
23
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24
He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.

 

[Pophead]

Are you sure you don’t mean: “This sort of talk is hard to endure! How can anyone take it seriously?” (John 6:60)

After that they would no longer remain in his company.

John 6:67---- Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

It is clear to me that there was much the disciples, only had a twinkling of an idea what Jesus was talking about, that is why He gives us His Spirit. The issues of John 6, is and issue of not being able to grasp the key of knowledge. I am sure you will eventually get it.

 

[Pophead]

Yet you have not addressed the last Supper

— There are many angles from which one can observe the Lord’s Supper as it is referred to in John’s Gospel and particularly Chapter 6. They cannot all be right, but I am prepared to give it a miss for now, as I perceive that a shadow in part is upon the hearts of many who believe Jesus means for us to believe in a literal intepretation, and not figurative one.

I think that I am more inclined to believe in the figurative interpretation therefore allowing me the joy of celebration a commemorative meal of bread and wine, as I remember the Lord’s death 'till He comes.

 

[Pophead]

The page timed out, so I did not get a chance to make a final grammatical alteration to my second stanza. So for those who wondered what Pophead believes about the Lord’s Supper, as succinctly as possible. (add this to the first stanza, of my last post to get the context…you know how important context is… )

’I think that I am more inclined to believe in the figurative interpretation therefore allowing me the joy of celebrat[ing] a commemorative meal of bread and wine, as I remember the Lord’s death 'till He comes.'
:extrahappy:

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Well, that is a theory. I am not really sure it is borne out by the Scriptures. Maybe someday we will know that for sure. Personally, I think it is just a system thought up by those who were unable to accurately interpret the true spirit of Christ’s teachings, for this you need to have the Spirit of Christ and will need to be extremely objective about your study of the Gospel of John.

Remember: just as we don’t believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved”, we Catholics don’t believe in “Sola Scriptura”. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ himself, and he promised to send his Spirit to guide her – which he does, as the Church intrprets not only what is in the Scriptures but also in her own Tradition.

In any case, there is ample support for the Real Presence in Scripture. Check out this thread, for example.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Pophead]

…he promised to send his Spirit to guide…

…us into all truth, He is after all the Spirit of Truth. I am old enough to know that religions have and will always change their truths. We are just not that clever as a race to keep everything exactly the way it was two thousand years ago. It would be foolish to try and convince yourself that this is so. Some things do not change and as you have stated, the one we can rely on to be constant is Jesus Christ, for He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Churches are made up of sinners and though they try to get it all down with a capital T, it is very seldom that they can and do. (sure SS, and OSAS are idea that have flaws, but then so do E, M, etc… Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, The Gospel according to Peanuts, all have a different flavour), but some things are still the same and one of those is the Gospel. It was tampered with and you got off shoots and hybrids under even the various Apostles…the Apostle Paul had his hands full with brothers going off the straight and narrow pathway…which is…?

In any case, there is ample support for the Real Presence in Scripture. Check out this thread, for example.

Peace,
Dante

Oh, Dante there is ample support for this and that, but as I have already expressed my view on this after looking at the various arguments, I think you are going to have to just look at what the various arguments are and then take it too the Lord in prayer, and where your conscience settles on the matter do that, for what is not of faith is sin. We are all in the same boat on that one.

resting.

 

[Wollie]

I wish that we were perfect. Then there would be no need for a Church. We would all read the bible and come up with the same answer.

Yet… I read John’s Gospel and it confirms my belief of the true Presence in the Eucharist and the command that we eat it. You read it and it confirms your belief that he was speaking figuratively.

How can either of us know for sure?

That is why I believe that the Church as a place of Authority is a necessity, which God in his infinite wisdom set up.

It makes no sense for God to leave us with a book and personal interpretations of that book alone! Unless of course it was his plan for His children to quarrel with each other… while the world laughs.

 

[JimG]

Anyone can believe whatever he wants. Yet I think that if, after reading the sixth chapter of John’s gospel, and all the Eucharistic institution narratives, especially that given by Paul, as well as the account of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, and considering the universal belief of the Church for twenty centuries–if, after taking all that into account, one remains convinced that the Eucharist is simply and only symbolic—then I think one ought to read John 6 again, taking note of the words of the scoffers back then, and try to make sure that one is not simply taking their attitude as one’s own.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

…us into all truth, He is after all the Spirit of Truth. I am old enough to know that religions have and will always change their truths. We are just not that clever as a race to keep everything exactly the way it was two thousand years ago. It would be foolish to try and convince yourself that this is so. Some things do not change and as you have stated, the one we can rely on to be constant is Jesus Christ, for He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Churches are made up of sinners and though they try to get it all down with a capital T, it is very seldom that they can and do. (sure SS, and OSAS are idea that have flaws, but then so do E, M, etc… Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, The Gospel according to Peanuts, all have a different flavour), but some things are still the same and one of those is the Gospel. It was tampered with and you got off shoots and hybrids under even the various Apostles…the Apostle Paul had his hands full with brothers going off the straight and narrow pathway…which is…?

Oh, Dante there is ample support for this and that, but as I have already expressed my view on this after looking at the various arguments, I think you are going to have to just look at what the various arguments are and then take it too the Lord in prayer, and where your conscience settles on the matter do that, for what is not of faith is sin. We are all in the same boat on that one.

resting.

It’s a pity that you’re “resting”, given that the debate is far from over. For what it’s worth, I’ve already “taken it to the Lord in prayer”, and he brought me back to the Church founded by Christ – which, by the way, does not “change its truths”, regardless of the fact that it is comprised of sinners.

And you asked for scriptural support for the Real Presence, my friend. I was obliging you.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Ani_Ibi]

And you asked for scriptural support for the Real Presence, my friend. I was obliging you.

Here is a very thorough discussion of the Real Presence from many different angles, both Catholic and non-Catholic:

Why did he let them walk away?

 

[Pophead]

Thank you so much for you contributions.

I am using a feather as my measure and so far I have not found one thing that will convince me to change my mind. Of course my only sourse of light are the Sacred Scriptures and specifically John’s Gospel, with particular attention to John chapter 6. Nothing like the true truth to keep one up all night.

Love,
Pophead.
:heaven: