Limbo and Elijah

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Mordocai

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Limbo of the Fathers was the place where rightous jews went before Christ opened Heaven.
Elijah was carried to heaven in a chariot.
1.) Did all non-jews go to hell?
2.) Was Elijah the only one in Heaven?
3.) Only perfect souls enter Heaven, perhaps the chariot of fire was Elijah’s purification before entrance into Heaven?

Please explain and reconcile these two seemingly incompatible facts i.e. No one went to Heaven until Jesus and Elijah went to Heaven.

God Bless,
Mordocai
 
Peace be with you!

I don’t know the answer to this for sure, but I’ll try to give you a little something. Moses also went to Heaven, I believe, and I think Elisha did as well. I would also assume that John the Baptist went to Heaven. Maybe someone else can answer this better, but I don’t believe we really know for sure, other than Moses and Elijah, that anyone was in Heaven before Christ opened the gates.

Also, non-Jews did not necessarily go to hell (as in torment hell) when they died. There were other peoples (though I can’t remember the name of them right now, maybe someone else can fill this in) at that time that worshipped the One True God, so I don’t see any reason that they would have gone to hell. Invincible ignorance was probably also another thing as well, when people had never heard of God and had no way of knowing Him. God won’t condemn us if we have never had a chance to believe in Him.

edit: your number 3 is certainly interesting, and is something I’ve never heard before. I think that’s definitely a possibility, and maybe someone else can speak to this more.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Yes, if number 3 is correct, that takes care of Elijah, but Moses and Elisha? (presuming they went to heaven before the resurrection, since I don’t remember if they did or not)
Anyone else have some Church Teaching/speculation on the matter? I admit this is one thing that has peeked my interest lately.
 
Everyone that died went to Sheol before Jesus died on the cross.
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
John 3:13Sheol is the Hebrew word for the abode of the dead. Within Sheol there were different places. Jesus speaks of the limbus patrum ( limbo of the Fathers) by two names: “Abraham’s bosom” and “paradise”. Jesus descended to dead on the first day, and he took the good thief with him to Abraham’s bosom (this day you will be with me in paradise). Besides paradise, other places within Sheol were Purgatory, and the place of the damned.

The Church Fathers taught that Enoch and Elijah were taken from earth as mortal men back to the Garden of Eden. They taught that Enoch and Elijah will return to earth as the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation where they will be martyred in Jerusalem in the time of the Antichrist.
 
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Matt16_18:
The Church Fathers taught that Enoch and Elijah were taken from earth as mortal men back to the Garden of Eden. They taught that Enoch and Elijah will return to earth as the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation where they will be martyred in Jerusalem in the time of the Antichrist.
Source please?I’ve never before heard that they went back to the Garden of Eden.
 
From the Catholic Culture website:
Whether any human bodies but those of Mary and her divine Son are already in heaven, does not fall within the confines of doctrine. There may be others. But the faithful are not obliged to believe there are. The Church allows the possibility without enforcing it.

There are those, among the biblical scholars, who consider the possibility a distinct probability. They first point out an Old Testament passage which tells of Enoch suddenly disappearing from view because “God took him.” and then another which specifies that “he was taken up from the earth” (Gen. 5:24; Sir. 48:9). They next quote from the New Testament this confirmative text: “Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him” (Heb. 11:5). Nor does the inquiry end with Enoch. A second prophet, who at the Transfiguration would reappear with Moses on Mount Tabor, on the hills of Moab was whisked away into the skies while his companion stood by in amazement. "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven is as plain words can say it, and the witness “saw him no more” (2 (4) Kings 2:11-12).

That Elijah departed alive in such a flurry, and momentarily reappeared at the Transfiguration, and according to a prophecy would return again to minister to his people, all reinforces the mystery of his present whereabouts. Where has he gone? Where has Enoch gone? Neither of them died. But since the heaven of heavens was closed to humanity before its Savior’s death, the question arises: were they detained until then in Limbo and afterwards graduated to the beatitude of the angels? Limbo (known in the Old Testament as “Abraham’s bosom”) had certainly been the place of detention for departed souls fit for heaven as soon as their Savior would open it to them, but in the case of Enoch and Elijah we are dealing with animated bodies. Where now are these? Is it out of the question to suppose that the two may have been taken, body and soul, into heaven? The Church does not say.

Nor has her magisterium chosen to speak with finality on what happened to those many risen bodies of Good Friday. Did they die again? Or were they taken to heaven? Is St. Joseph there now, body as well as soul? A select group of theologians, an even larger group of mystics, and sometimes theologians who were mystics, think so. They think the Holy Family are all together again. They think that the body that labored so faithfully and lovingly to provide a livelihood for Jesus and Mary is with them in glory. Suarez does. But why go into the long enumeration? St. Francis de Sales in lauding the foster father to and beyond the skies was singing no solo but contributing to a chorus.
 
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Dan-Man916:
Source please?I’ve never before heard that they went back to the Garden of Eden.
And even if some Church Fathers do mention this, though I can’t even fathom what it means for them to return to the Garden of Eden, doesn’t mean that such is the teaching of the Church.

Every apologetics argument I have ever read for Mary’s Assumption mentions Enoch’s and Elijah’s own assumptions into heaven.
 
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Matt16_18:
The Church Fathers taught that Enoch and Elijah were taken from earth as mortal men back to the Garden of Eden. They taught that Enoch and Elijah will return to earth as the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation where they will be martyred in Jerusalem in the time of the Antichrist.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the following website also suggests that Enoch, Elijah, and others were in heaven before Christ opened the gates:

socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/01/are-catholics-permitted-to-believe.html

The link quotes Dave Armstrong, Fr. Hardon, Cardinal Newman, St. Alphonsus Liguori, and JP2 in defense of this position.
 
Two things to consider;

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

If Enoch and Elijah were still in the flesh then they did not go to heaven…

1 Cor 15:20
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

They could not have been resurrected either since Jesus has first place among those who will be glorified, and Jesus had not been resurrected yet…My guess is Abraham’s bosom is where they each ended up until Jesus came to preach the good news…
 
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Northwind:
If Enoch and Elijah were still in the flesh then they did not go to heaven…
If is indeed the key word.
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
IIRC, the verses surrounding the departures of Enoch and Elijah seem to imply that they did not die, but were taken while alive.
 
I agree that they did not die. But they did not go to what Paul calls the 3rd heaven. Whether in the flesh or spirit they would have been in Abraham’s bosom…IMHO.
 
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Northwind:
I agree that they did not die. But they did not go to what Paul calls the 3rd heaven. Whether in the flesh or spirit they would have been in Abraham’s bosom…IMHO.
If by 3rd heaven you mean the heaven that most people refer to when they speak of heaven (i.e., where those who die in a state of grace go), then we disagree. I have quoted some people who seem to agree with my position, but I have also listed an article that states that the Church has not defined anything. So we’re free to go our separate ways.

Peace.
 
What is the third Heaven?
Can someone explain please? I’m not familiar with this term.
 
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Dan-Man916:
What is the third Heaven?
Can someone explain please? I’m not familiar with this term.
A saying of St. Paul. From a brief web search, it seems to refer to the heaven where God is. The first heaven being the sky, the second being space beyond the sky (i.e., where the stars are).
 
2 Cor 12:2
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

Probably the same place Isaiah saw his vision, but in Paul’s case he isn’t sure if he is in his body or not. If in the spirit that would still be in harmony with scripture as Jesus had ascended and heaven is now open to the faithfully departed in Christ.
 
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Dan-Man916:
Source please?I’ve never before heard that they went back to the Garden of Eden.
The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920

Whether paradise was a place adapted to be the abode of man?

Reply to Objection 3.
Paradise did not become useless through being unoccupied by man after sin, just as immortality was not conferred on man in vain, though he was to lose it. For thereby we learn God’s kindness to man, and what man lost by sin. Moreover, some say that Enoch and Elias still dwell in that paradise.

The History of Joseph the Carpenter
newadvent.org/fathers/0805.htm

Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8

And I say to you, O my brethren, that they also, Enoch and Elias, must towards the end of time return into the world and die–in the day, namely, of commotion, of terror, of perplexity, and affliction. For Antichrist will slay four bodies, and will pour out their blood like water, because of the reproach to which they shall expose him, and the ignominy with which they, in their lifetime, shall brand him when they reveal his impiety.
  1. And we said: O our Lord, our God and Saviour, who are those four whom Thou hast said Antichrist will cut off from the reproach they bring upon him? The Lord answered: They are Enoch, Elias, Schila, and Tabitha. When we heard this from our Saviour, we rejoiced and exulted; and we offered all glory and thanksgiving to the Lord God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume05/hippolytus11.cfm
APPENDIX TO THE WORKS OF
HIPPOLYTUS
CONTAINING DUBIOUS AND SPURIOUS PIECES
A DISCOURSE(1) BY THE MOST BLESSED HIPPOLYTUS, BISHOP AND MARTYR, ON THE END OF THE WORLD, AND ON ANTICHRIST, AND ON THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
I.

For through the Scriptures we are instructed in two advents of the Christ and Saviour. And the first after the flesh was in humiliation, because He was manifested in lowly estate. So then His second advent is declared to be in glory; for He comes from heaven with power, and angels, and the glory of His Father. His first advent had John the Baptist as its forerun-her; and His second, in which He is to come in glory, will exhibit Enoch, and Elias, and John the Divine. (1) Behold, too, the Lord’s kindness to man; how even in the last times He shows His care for mortals, and pities them. For He will not leave us even then without prophets, but will send them to us for our instruction and assurance, and to make us give heed to the advent of the adversary, as He intimated also of old in this Daniel. For he says, “I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed.” For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times.(2) And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a “thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth;”(3) and they will work signs and wonders with the object of making men ashamed and repentant, even by these means, on account of their surpassing lawlessness and impiety. “And if any man will hurt them, fire will proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of the advent of Antichrist, and to turn waters into blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will.”(4) And when they have proclaimed all these things they will fall on the sword, cut off by the accuser(5). And they will fulfil their testimony, as Daniel also says; for he foresaw that the beast that came up out of the abyss would make war with them, namely with Enoch, Elias, and John, and would overcome them, and kill them, because of their refusal to give glory to the accuser. that is the little horn that sprang up.(6) And he, being lifted up in heart, begins in the end to, exalt himself and glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ.
 
Elias the Prophet, July 20

Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

traditioninaction.org/SOD/j030sdElias7-20.htm

Both Prophets – Elias and Enoch – did not die, but probably live in the terrestrial Paradise, where they contemplate the things of Heaven and follow the course of events on earth. They are awaiting the clock of History to strike their hour to return. Then the Angels will transport them to earth to fight against the Antichrist. They will come to fight the last battle of History.

… in the last days before the Judgment, the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, thanks to this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the Law to them.
(St. Augustine)

“During the three and a half years of Antichrist’s reign God will send Henoch and Elias to help the Christians.”
(St. Benedict)

For three and a half years [the Antichrist] will hold sway and, at the end of that period, he will put to death Henoch and Elias, who will have previously opposed him by preaching the true faith. Shortly afterwards, Christ will appear, and Antichrist will be killed by Michael the Archangel.
(Adso the Monk, 10th Century)

Elias will cause the rain, dew and snow to cease in those countries where the inhabitants oppose the two prophets and refuse to reject Antichrist. The first land to be so punished will be Palestine in order to win over the Jews. After Elias finds the `Ark of the Covenant’ of the Jews, (hidden until the recall of the Jews to God), he and Henoch will place the Blessed Sacrament upon it. The Jews will then realise the Jesus Christ and not Antichrist is the true Messiah. They will desert Antichrist and make a pilgrimage to Mount Nebo (where the Ark is found) bewailing the hardheartedness of their ancestors. Thereafter they will accept the Christian faith. The Antichrist will kill Henoch and Elias and leave them unburied. These will, however, be resurrected after three and one-half days and ascend into heaven in a cloud in the presence of their enemy. This miraculous event will actually confuse Antichrist. In order that the nations will not abandon him, he will lift himself with great majesty into space on Mt. Olivet, with the purported intention to cast down the prophets who have ascended into heaven. But in this moment Christ will strike him down. The earth will open and swallow him and his prophets alive. Then a large part of Jerusalem will fall into ruins from the earthquake."
(Dionysius of Luxemburg)

members.tripod.com/~Fabio001/antichristyves.txt[/indent]

The Book of Enoch the Prophet by Richard Laurence

amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AHQKBF1ZVX6YW/002-1382250-5060042?_encoding=UTF8&display=public&page=7

The “Book of Enoch” is a lost manuscript of a book ascribed to the prophet Enoch, the antediluvian Old Testament Patriarch, seventh generation from Adam, whom God took into Heaven for his righteousness. It is also a tradition in the Church that Enoch (along with Elias) to witness for Christ against the Antichrist.
 
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Dan-Man916:
What is the third Heaven?
Can someone explain please? I’m not familiar with this term.
**The Heavens **

The term we know as heaven is the Old-English translation of the two original words in The Bible - the Hebrew word in the Old Testament is pronounced shaw-may, and the Greek word in the New Testament is pronounced oo-ran-aws. Both mean the same thing - either the sky, or the outer space above it, depending on what the writer was talking about at the time. Sky or space are quite accurate modern substitutes for heaven. For example:

“Heaven” translated meaning the sky, the atmosphere -

 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater.” (Isaiah 55:10 RSV)

 “and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.” (Genesis 1:20 RSV)

 “And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2 Kings 2:11 RSV)
“Heaven” translated meaning outer space, the abode of God -  “O Lord, God of our fathers, art Thou not God in heaven?” (2 Chronicles 20:6 RSV)

 “So then the Lord Jesus, after He had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” (Mark 16:19 RSV)

 “No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13 RSV)​
 
Matt,

All of this on Enoch appears to be conjecture. Certainly it can be believed, but i don’t see that it is very high up on the levels of theological certainty.
It seems to be open theological opinion.
 
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Dan-Man916:
All of this on Enoch appears to be conjecture.
Of course it is conjecture, since this has not been explicitly revealed by scripture, nor has it ever been formally defined as dogma . But it is conjecture by Fathers of the Church that is based upon making sense of scripture and what has been divinely revealed to man by God.

I am greatly bothered by Catholics that speculate that Enoch and Elijah were bodily assumed into Heaven where they enjoyed the beatific vision before Christ became Incarnate - that Jesus was not the first man to enter Heaven. Were Enoch and Elijah crowned with glory as royalty in Heaven before Mary received her crown as the Queen of Heaven? Asserting that Enoch and Elijah were crowned with glory in Heaven opens up a whole can of worms that is far more difficult to reconcile with scripture than merely believing that they are still mortal men living in the Garden of Eden - mortal men that will return to earth to die as martyrs. After Enoch and Elijah are martyred they will receive their crowns of glory - that makes a lot of sense to me. Receiving crowns of glory before Christ ascended to Heaven to sit upon his throne makes no sense at all to me.

Enoch and Elijah were born in original sin. How is that men born in original sin received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, without which, no one can see the beatific vision? If Enoch and Elijah went the Heaven before Jesus died on the cross for sin, then that means that the God the Son didn’t really need to become Incarnate and take on the sins of the world to open the Gates of Heaven.

To me, teaching that Enoch and Elijah were bodily assumed into Heaven before Christ became incarnate and died as the lamb of God completely undermines the Gospel. Why, exactly, didn’t God the Father take away the cup of suffering from Jesus when he asked for that cup to be removed during his agony in the garden? If Jesus’ brutal death was really not necessary for the Gates of Heaven to be opened, then why did Jesus have to go through with it? What kind of Father would allow his beloved Son to be beaten to death if there was no real reason for doing it? Why didn’t God the Father just send us an angel to tell us to wise up or else, and spare his beloved Son the agony of the crucifixion? I saw that is not right to say that God need not have become man, need not have died for us upon the Cross; that He could, by virtue of His omnipotence, have redeemed us otherwise. I saw that He did what He did in conformity with His own infinite perfection, His mercy, and his Justice; that there is indeed no necessity in God, He does what He does, He is what He is!

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich
 
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