Limbo as Dogma?

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mikee said:
If we define Limbo as a state of natural happiness without the Beatific Vision of God, we can be certain that Limbo is not a dogma. The reason? The Church has never explicitly condemned the opposite theory: the theory being that unbaptized infants do go to hell to suffer a very mild form of hell fire.

Before anyone says anything let me make it explicitly clear: I do not believe unbaptized infants who have died before the age of reason suffer hell fire. I merely wish to point out that the majority of the magisterial texts brought forward to support Limbo often presuppose the legitimacy of that other theory.
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That very theory is what seperates the Orthodox view of Origonal sin from pergatory. I think it was Florance that fathers of the west said this was the faith they had received. As it was at an eccumenical council and it was the descision of the council it is a part of the ordinary infallable teaching of the church in an eccumenical council. The council taught that the unbaptized go to hell. Orthodox rejected it.
 
The way I see it is that nothing impure can enter heaven. It must be purified to enter heaven. If a baby dies without baptism, its soul must be purified to enter heaven. I know God is a loving God. The babies have not made the choice not to follow Him. So that being said I ** do not** believe that they will be held away from God forever.
 
stringbeanduck said:
The way I see it is that nothing impure can enter heaven. It must be purified to enter heaven. If a baby dies without baptism, its soul must be purified to enter heaven. I know God is a loving God. The babies have not made the choice not to follow Him. So that being said I don’t believe that they will be held away from God.
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So you deny the papal dogma of origonal sin?
 
BritishCatholic said:
QUOTE=palmas85

Yes, God can be stern, but He is also very merciful.

We are in no position to dictate the “ways” and “hows” of eternal salvation. Heck, I don’t even think Holy Mother Church, with all due respect, is in an omnipotent position to say who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

Personally, I never really cared much for Limbo. Limbo by common definition is a non-official existence between two official existences. I was brought up to believe that when someone dies, he/she either goes to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

In regards to infants when they die, we must all understand that this is God’s Will. The Almighty saw it fit in His Wisdom not to have this infant live. Why? I don’t know. What is the truth behind this assumption? The Scriptures tells us that nothing comes to pass without God’s permission or approval. Now, God willed that this infant be conceived. But why taken away so shortly after birth?

My friends, rather that debating whether or not these souls reach the Gates of St. Peter(or not), we should be contemplating the majesty of God and His righteousness.
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At the same time one must not fall into presumption—which truthfully—seems to be coming across in the various threads on limbo.
 
marci said:
I will say it again PLEASE read the document entitled, “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized”, aurthored by The International Theological Commission.

The Commission consists of a 30 member advisory panel to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Their afore mentioned publication was approved by Pope Benedict XVI.
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The ITC is NOT a part of the Magisterium of the Church ie: it holds not authority whatsoever. No one has to pay attention to any article published by a commission. A great example: in 1967 the commission on birth control told Pope Paul VI it would be “okay” to lift the ban on artificial contraception. Man am I glad he didn’t listen. Too bad most people did though. Even then, the ITC document does not “close the door” on Limbo like so many think. Read this article:

seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html

Limbo can not go away so easily. It has been taught for far too long.
 
SemperFidelis said:
The ITC is NOT a part of the Magisterium of the Church ie: it holds not authority whatsoever. No one has to pay attention to any article published by a commission. A great example: in 1967 the commission on birth control told Pope Paul VI it would be “okay” to lift the ban on artificial contraception. Man am I glad he didn’t listen. Too bad most people did though. Even then, the ITC document does not “close the door” on Limbo like so many think. Read this article:

seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html

Limbo can not go away so easily. It has been taught for far too long.
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In that the ITC is made up of Bishops and clergy that are part of the teaching office of the church you are dead wrong in asserting that they are not a part of the Magisterium. Of course you consider Paul VI’s work part of the gospel account, right.👍
The issue here is that the ITC was asked for their opinion as a sub council of a body of the Church. If Benedict ignored them you might have validity in your perspective in that he would be saying they taught against the perspective of the seat of Peter. Yet Papa Benne aproved it. So, you are left with an issue. In his ordinary role as confirming the brethren a pope has said what is false to be admissable or your particular perspective is an exadgeration of the Church’s true teachings.
Could this be a step toward cannonizing the unborn dead of abortion? If so, what a big slap to the face of politicians supporting abortion. What a call to repentance for all those who disbelieve. What an awsome chior of saints we would have in heaven. Let’s see three thousand a day for… gives us… a bucketload
 
SemperFidelis said:
A great example: in 1967 the commission on birth control told Pope Paul VI it would be “okay” to lift the ban on artificial contraception. Man am I glad he didn’t listen. Too bad most people did though. Even then, the ITC document does not “close the door” on Limbo like so many think.

Limbo can not go away so easily. It has been taught for far too long.
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Wow,what a horrible view you have, don’t be so ignorant… Look at what birth control does; for one thing, it helps to keep population explosion from occurring, and keeps the spreading of aids away, but unfortunately the church has banned contraceptives in places like the Phillipines so disease, death, and overpopulation occur. Contraceptives are doing wonders in india right now, they’ve still a long way to go, but it’s in the works. I know you probably think the church is “all knowing” as I was brought up to believe, but they are not. The church has reigned destruction on this earth for 2000 year and has officially killed over a billion people over those 2000 years in the name of Christ and God. If you wish to believe in God, think about the rational uses of contraceptives and their benefit without being ignorant by just trusting in the popes word…
 
surgei said:
In that the ITC is made up of Bishops and clergy that are part of the teaching office of the church you are dead wrong in asserting that they are not a part of the Magisterium. Of course you consider Paul VI’s work part of the gospel account, right.👍
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Can you prove to me that the ITC is a part of the Magisterium of the Church?

Read this:

lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=334

Even wikipedia can get it right:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Theological_Commission
 
ttaylor said:
Wow,what a horrible view you have, don’t be so ignorant… Look at what birth control does; for one thing, it helps to keep population explosion from occurring, and keeps the spreading of aids away, but unfortunately the church has banned contraceptives in places like the Phillipines so disease, death, and overpopulation occur. Contraceptives are doing wonders in india right now, they’ve still a long way to go, but it’s in the works. I know you probably think the church is “all knowing” as I was brought up to believe, but they are not. The church has reigned destruction on this earth for 2000 year and has officially killed over a billion people over those 2000 years in the name of Christ and God. If you wish to believe in God, think about the rational uses of contraceptives and their benefit without being ignorant by just trusting in the popes word…
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Wow. Wow, is all I have to say.

Actually, no it’s not: your profile says you’re Catholic, try acting like it.
 
marci said:
If that is all you have taken away from what I have said, then you obviously misunderstood.

I will say it again PLEASE read the document entitled, “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptized”, aurthored by The International Theological Commission.

The Commission consists of a 30 member advisory panel to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Their afore mentioned publication was approved by Pope Benedict XVI.

I have said nothing in my posts that contradicts the findings and advice of the Commission.

And just in case I’m not clear enough, No I do not expect God to conform to what I think.

I have hope that God, Who desires that all be saved, Who said “let the children come”, Who is infinately Merciful, allows for the salvation of those innocent of actual sin whose fate would not allow for baptism in the ordinary way.

P.S. I think that to say that condemning the soul of a child who was either miscarried, aborted, died during birth, or as a baby, is STERN is an understatement.

Does God create life knowing that that life will not have the faculty for free will, will not ever take a breath on this earth, nor commit any actual sin, but will nevertheless be damned? None of us know for certain the answer to this. However, does this reconcile with our understanding of God’s Nature?

In my opinion the idea of Limbo was created to reconcile the idea that baptism in absolutly necessary, with the problem of condemning an infant to hell who has commited no actual sin.

Before Limbo, they were deemed to go to Hell. But, this was troubling, so since they can’t go to Heaven (ie not-baptized), they gotta go somewhere. So then it was a “part” of Hell. Not the physical pain of Hell, but on the “outer edge”. Then it developed into not part of Hell, a separate place where they are unable to see God, but in a state of perfect happiness. (I don’t know how happy one can be on the edge of Hell, and never having the possibility of the beatic vision, but who am I to try and reason?)

Do you see why the speculation about Limbo can cause damage?
The current CCC does not even mention it. And what about the problem of the Final Judgement when there is no more purgatory, or earth? There is only Heaven and those who have been eternally damned to Hell. All will be judged living and dead. So what about those supposedly in Limbo? They have to go somewhere.
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God destroyed the entire world and everything in it, due to the overall wickedness of its inhabitants. Yet He created all of those inhabitants and allowed the conditions to exist… God threw man out of paradise due to one , exactly one, act of disobedience. Yet having put Man there and being omnipotent, He obviously knew what Man would do.

The question really is why does God do the things He does and allow the things that he allows? It appears to me that your whole argument boils down to the fact that Limbo isn’t fair to the souls there, and that the remaining family needs and deserves comfort, I’ll grant you that. To you and me it sure doesn’t look fair at all and the family should be comforted. But to God who knows?

Hey lets get real for a second. Our ancestors disobeyed God so why does that mark us? After all, they exercised their free will. You didn’t do it and neither did I. So is it fair that we suffer for their transgression? Should we be forced to live out our lives deprived of the closeness of God just because they did something He said not to do? Doesn’t seem very fair to me. Nope not fair at all, but thats just the way it is.

Or lets get even more serious OK? Why condemn sinners to a lake of eternal fire? Why not just put those troubled souls to sleep forever. Does the commission of a mortal sin truly merit eternal fire and damnation? Why doesn’t God forgive them? After all, He knew what they were going to do before they did it, didn’t He?.

We can in no way even comprehend what God truly is let alone try to understand how He thinks or what He truly values All we can do is try to understand as best as possible with our feeble minds why things happen.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. Issiah 55:8

Hey I’m not arguing for or against. I don’t really think about it too much. There’s nothing I can do about it anyway. But when people say that God wouldn’t allow something like that to happen or that it doesn’t seem fair, or as you said, being stern is an understatement, all they are really doing is trying to place their own moral judgement on God.

And that my friend is just plain wrong.
 
surgei said:
Look at your own links again. In that they were aproved by the pope your conclusion that this ITC teaching is not teaching for the Church falls again.
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The ITC can produce whatever—yet until the Church Herself speaks —what they say is just words on paper.

As to the ITC—the following is Pope Benedict’s words to the “theologians”.

ZE06100607 - 2006-10-06

Pope Warns Theologians to Not Seek Applause
In Homily, He Recommends Fidelity to Truth

zenit.org/article-17840?l=english

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 6, 2006 (Zenit.org).- A theologian prostitutes himself when he subjects himself to the “dictatorship of common opinions,” Benedict XVI told members of the International Theological Commission.

“To speak to meet with applause, to speak oriented to what men want to hear, to speak obeying the dictatorship of common opinions, is considered a sort of prostitution of the word and of the soul,” said the Holy Father quoting the First Letter of St. Peter.

Benedict XVI continued: “And I believe this is the fundamental virtue of the theologian, this discipline, even hard, of obedience to the truth, which makes us collaborators of the truth, a mouth of truth, so that we will not speak in this river of words of today, but that we are really purified and chaste through obedience to the truth, so that truth may speak in us.”
 
SemperFidelis said:
The ITC is NOT

a part of the Magisterium of the Church ie: it holds not authority whatsoever. No one has to pay attention to any article published by a commission

And yet the pope has approved it’s publication.
If the pope gives his stamp of approval to this document, why then should the laity not give study and consideration to it? I dare say that this will not be the end of the matter either. I wouldn’t be surprised if Pope Benedict himself makes some future statement on the issue.
Even then, the ITC document does not “close the door” on Limbo like so many think.
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palmas85 said:
God destroyed the entire world and everything in it, due to the overall wickedness of its inhabitants. Yet He created all of those inhabitants and allowed the conditions to exist… God threw man out of paradise due to one , exactly one, act of disobedience. Yet having put Man there and being omnipotent, He obviously knew what Man would do.
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ttaylor said:
Wow,what a horrible view you have, don’t be so ignorant… Look at what birth control does; for one thing, it helps to keep population explosion from occurring, and keeps the spreading of aids away, but unfortunately the church has banned contraceptives in places like the Phillipines so disease, death, and overpopulation occur. Contraceptives are doing wonders in india right now, they’ve still a long way to go, but it’s in the works. I know you probably think the church is “all knowing” as I was brought up to believe, but they are not. The church has reigned destruction on this earth for 2000 year and has officially killed over a billion people over those 2000 years in the name of Christ and God. If you wish to believe in God, think about the rational uses of contraceptives and their benefit without being ignorant by just trusting in the popes word…
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The above statement is what happens when you buy into secularist propaganda taught by secularist leftists in places like high schools hook, line, and sinker.

The Church has killed over a billion people? Evidence? That’s such an absurd comment.

Rational uses of contraception? There are none. What’s worth killing your soul over? Population control? The same argument could be made for slaughtering unborn children.

Since God commanded man to multiply, we should have faith that He will make that possible. Saying that we need contraception to stop the population from exploding is a result of a lack of faith in God.

Condoms don’t stop AIDS from spreading; abstinence does. The most illogical argument I hear about the Church’s teachings on sex is that they are the cause for the spread of AIDS because people listen to them in third world countries. Now, let’s try some common sense. Logically, if people were listening to the teachings of the Church, they wouldn’t be having sex outside of marriage. If everybody had sex with only their spouse, then AIDS would not be spreading. Therefore, the problem isn’t that people are listening to the Church’s teaching, the problem is that they aren’t listening, because if they were, then it doesn’t matter if they were using condoms or not because they wouldn’t be having sex in the first place! Is that so hard to understand? Apparently it is for leftists, who don’t believe that people can restrain themselves. Again, a lack of faith in God’s grace.
 
marci said:
palmas85;3112611:
Bingo! God destroyed the world due to their wickedness. **WILLFULL decent **
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to God’s law. God threw man out of paradise, because of his DISOBEDIENCE

An infant is incapable of willfull disobedience, so your comparing apples to oranges.

It’s not about fairness, it’s about justice.

Again free will. It is justice to receive punishment for unrepented disobedience. Not the the case for infants.

With the help of the church, which is as we speak, developing a clearer understanding of the matter at the bequest of the pope himself.

CCC2094 One can sin against God’s love in various ways:
–indifference neglects or refuses to reflect on divine charity and to return him love for love…

P.S. I’m starting to become a little resentful of the fact that you keep insinuating that I either think I know more than God, or that I am replacing my will for His.

I have in no way spoken out agains church teaching. Have I ever even insinuated that baptism is unnecessary? No. I am doing nothing that the catechism doesn’t itself proclaim. I am HOPING and TRUSTING in the infinite mercy of God.

As am I. I do note however that you pick and choose which points to answer and which not to. Do you agree that original sin exists?
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palmas85 said:
marci;3112725:
As am I. I do note however that you pick and choose which points to answer and which not to. Do you agree that original sin exists?
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Absolutely! And I believe that these infants are concieved with the stain. However, I hold out hope that God can offer an extraordinary way of baptism for them. This is my opinion of course.

Which points am I picking and choosing? There have been a few points that I have made, which you have not addressed as well.
Such as the ITC document and the CCC quotes
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