Limbo in Limbo?

[estesbob]

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051130/od_nm/pope_limbo_dc

 

[John_Higgins]

Glad to hear it. The Catechism had pretty much axed it anyway.

John

 

[JGheen]

John Higgins:

Glad to hear it. The Catechism had pretty much axed it anyway.

John

How has the Catechism “axed” limbo?

To me, the article just seems to say the Church was going to try to develop fuller teachings around limbo. It did not say it was changing any old teachings. And anyway, can you really trust the secular press to correctly interpret and represent the specifics of Catholic teachings?

 

[pnewton]

I found the article did not accurately portray the Catholic position on limbo. It is only a theological speculation, not a teaching of the Church.

I am intrigued that over the next few years we may see a new development in this area. Maybe the Holy Spirit will reveal some sort of doctrine to the church through this discussion.

 

[John_Higgins]

JGheen:

How has the Catechism “axed” limbo?

Pretty much by not mentioning it. Do a search on the CCC and you won’t even find the word. I cite the Catechism:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Limbo is merely a dance under a bamboo pole.

John

 

[revejj2000]

Here is the first paragraph on LIMBO from the *Our Sunday Visitor’s Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, *1997, p 383f.

“It has never been a formally defined doctrine of the faith that such an abode of souls as limbo exists whose condition is one of eternal exclusion from the blessed company of God, albeit without any pain of loss. Nevertheless, theologians over the centuries have proposed limbo as a sort of secondary thesis, thought to be useful in shoring up the absolute importance and necessity of Baptism.”

The last paragraph mentions:
“The Catechism also reminds us that ‘God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.’” (CCC 1257).

 

[stanley123]

revejj2000:

It has never been a formally defined doctrine of the faith …

However, is it true that the Seventeenth Ecumenical Council of the Church says:

“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”

 

[JSmitty2005]

People don’t like the idea of limbo because it isn’t really pleasant, however, that isn’t a very good reason to reject a teaching of the Church. Next Purgatory, then Hell will be done away with too.

revejj2000:

Here is the first paragraph on LIMBO from the *Our Sunday Visitor’s Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, *

Our Sunday Visitor is a publication. It has no authority.

stanley123:

However, is it true that the Seventeenth Ecumenical Council of the Church says:

“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”

What the heck does that mean?! Lol.

I know that as a Catholic I should know Latin, but I’m still not so hot at it.

 

[JSmitty2005]

revejj2000:

Here is the first paragraph on LIMBO from the *Our Sunday Visitor’s Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, *1997, p 383f.

“It has never been a formally defined doctrine of the faith that such an abode of souls as limbo exists whose condition is one of eternal exclusion from the blessed company of God, albeit without any pain of loss. Nevertheless, theologians over the centuries have proposed limbo as a sort of secondary thesis, thought to be useful in shoring up the absolute importance and necessity of Baptism.”

The last paragraph mentions:
“The Catechism also reminds us that ‘God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.’” (CCC 1257).

Our Sunday Visitor is a progressive, liberal, modernist, and sissified publication. It has no authority.

 

[JSmitty2005]

stanley123:

However, is it true that the Seventeenth Ecumenical Council of the Church says:

“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”

What the heck does that mean?! Lol.

I know that as a Catholic I should know Latin, but I’m still not so hot at it.

 

[stanley123]

JSmitty2005:

What the heck does that mean?

Sorry, I thought educated Catholics knew Latin.
“the souls of those who die in actual Mortal Sin or in Original Sin alone, immediately go down to Hell, to be punished, however, with different punishments”.

 

[legeorge]

stanley123:

Sorry, I thought educated Catholics knew Latin.

Gee, if you’re not careful, someone could think you are arrogant.
I guess if I had been properly taught in my Catholic Schools I would know Latin better. Oh, maybe that wasn’t my fault as I was born in the 70s!!! Some of us had to teach ourselves. So lighten up, huh?

 

[JSmitty2005]

legeorge:

Gee, if you’re not careful, someone could think you are arrogant.
I guess if I had been properly taught in my Catholic Schools I would know Latin better. Oh, maybe that wasn’t my fault as I was born in the 70s!!! Some of us had to teach ourselves. So lighten up, huh?

Ditto to that^! I actually went to a public school, so I didn’t have any Latin. Notice I said, “I know that as a Catholic I should know Latin, but I’m still not so hot at it.”

 

[Nohome]

legeorge:

Gee, if you’re not careful, someone could think you are arrogant.

I thought the same thing when I read this, but the intent of what is written is often lost in this media. I learned a great deal of Latin in school, but it had nothing to do with being Catholic.

My emails have the following signature:

“quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur”
" ラテン語が難しいと思うなら日本語で言って見なさい"

The Japanese is not a perfect translation, in fact it likely means more to an English speaker who learns Japanese later in life.

Nohome

 

[Mom_of_5]

I consider myself a good Catholic, however have NEVER believed in limbo!! I cannot even imagine that our loving God would not allow un-baptized children to see Him for all eternity. I had 3 mis-carriages…as all moms who have suffered through this and those who lost a baby before baptism, the very thought of God rejecting these innocent babies is inconcievable. I don’t really care what the Church teaches about limbo, I believe that my babies are in heaven in the prescence of God. I think this notion of limbo harms the reputation of our Church. I had long forgotten about “limbo” until it came into the new again. I just want this to go away!

Love and peace

 

[stanley123]

Mom of 5:

I consider myself a good Catholic, however have NEVER believed in limbo!! I cannot even imagine that our loving God would not allow un-baptized children to see Him for all eternity. I had 3 mis-carriages…as all moms who have suffered through this and those who lost a baby before baptism, the very thought of God rejecting these innocent babies is inconcievable.

Interesting. What then would you say (or anyone else) about what
the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.

 

[Nohome]

stanley123:

Interesting. What then would you say (or anyone else) about what
the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.

Simple, the “dogma” is incorrect.

Mom of 5. One of the most difficult things I’ve experienced in my married life was watching my wife morn the loss from a miscarriage. I can only imagine the pain of three. Their souls are in heaven sure as the sun will rise.

Nohome

 

[axolotl]

stanley123:

Interesting. What then would you say (or anyone else) about what
the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.

Well not according to Cardinal Ratzinger:

 "Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith," he  said. "Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head  of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always  been only a theological hypothesis."      According to Italian Vatican watchers, the reluctance of  theologians to even use the word limbo was clear in the way  the Vatican referred in its official statement to the  question up for discussion             .

source:ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2005-11-29_1975390.html

 

[JSmitty2005]

Nohome:

Simple, the “dogma” is incorrect.

Mom of 5. One of the most difficult things I’ve experienced in my married life was watching my wife morn the loss from a miscarriage. I can only imagine the pain of three. Their souls are in heaven sure as the sun will rise.

Nohome

I don’t mean to be harsh, but refer to post #8.

 

[stanley123]

Nohome:

Simple, the “dogma” is incorrect.

So the Catholic dogma on limbo is incorrect and can be changed?
Now if they can change the Catholic dogma on limbo, then why can they not change the Catholic teachings on women priests, on contraception and on divorce?

the Church has stated in the 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 that souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
This is de fide according to theologian, Dr. Ludwig Ott in his Book, Fundamentals of Catholic dogma.

“illorum animas, qui in actuali mortali peccato vel solo originale decedunt, mox in infernum descendere, poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”

Also, Denzinger 464 states:
" souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”

But according to Cardinal Ratzinger:

“Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith,” he said. “Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always been only a theological hypothesis.” According to Italian Vatican watchers, the reluctance of theologians to even use the word limbo was clear in the way the Vatican referred in its official statement to the question up for discussion .

source:ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus…29_1975390.html

“The Catholic Church appears set to definitively drop the concept of limbo, the place where it has traditionally said children’s souls go if they die before being baptised .”