Limbo nothing new

[Dan-Man916]

This was just released:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc_1

Personally, this is non-news.

The commission recommends scrapping the belief in limbo.
The theological commission is not the Magesterium of the Church.

Personally, to me this means that there is nothing new.

A Catholic can still be perfectly orthodox in belief and believe that a) an unbaptized child who dies will still not experience the beatific vision, and
b) that God sanctifies them extra-sacramentally or by baptism of desire.

Both are within the realm of liberty of belief. While the Church speaks of hope for these children (which I absolutely agree with), we still have no assurance of faith.

 

[christianley]

This was just released:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc_1

Personally, this is non-news.

The commission recommends scrapping the belief in limbo.
The theological commission is not the Magesterium of the Church.

Personally, to me this means that there is nothing new.

A Catholic can still be perfectly orthodox in belief and believe that a) an unbaptized child who dies will still not experience the beatific vision, and
b) that God sanctifies them extra-sacramentally or by baptism of desire.

Both are within the realm of liberty of belief. While the Church speaks of hope for these children (which I absolutely agree with), we still have no assurance of faith.

I think they are conceding the limbo idea doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with what we know about God’s mercy. They are right to bury it.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

This was just released:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc_1

Personally, this is non-news.

The commission recommends scrapping the belief in limbo.
The theological commission is not the Magesterium of the Church.

Personally, to me this means that there is nothing new.

A Catholic can still be perfectly orthodox in belief and believe that a) an unbaptized child who dies will still not experience the beatific vision, and
b) that God sanctifies them extra-sacramentally or by baptism of desire.

Both are within the realm of liberty of belief. While the Church speaks of hope for these children (which I absolutely agree with), we still have no assurance of faith.

Does the Commission document actually make reference to Baptism of Desire in relation to infants? I have not read it yet, but find it hard to believe that it does.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I think they are conceding the limbo idea doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with what we know about God’s mercy. They are right to bury it.

They didn’t bury it from the clip I read, they just reiterated what the Catechism says, that we may have hope, but don’t really know.

 

[bilop]

I think they are conceding the limbo idea doesn’t make a whole lot of sense with what we know about God’s mercy. They are right to bury it.

I don’t know why people believe that the concept of limbo is unmerciful.

From what I’ve read, theologians speculate that in limbo one would experience perfect natural happiness, only being deprived the beatific vision.

Now, clearly this is not as good as heaven. But, “perfect natural happiness”, i.e. better than the best day we’ve ever experienced, for eternity, is pretty good. Especially, if one does not know what you are missing.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I don’t know why people believe that the concept of limbo is unmerciful.

From what I’ve read, theologians speculate that in limbo one would experience perfect natural happiness, only being deprived the beatific vision.

Now, clearly this is not as good as heaven. But, “perfect natural happiness”, i.e. better than the best day we’ve ever experienced, for eternity, is pretty good. Especially, if one does not know what you are missing.

Because most people have never read St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s Great Means of Perfection and Salvation where he explains this concept in detail. This is what convinced me, and until the Church actually teaches definitively otherwise, I will agree with him.

 

[bilop]

Because most people have never read St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s Great Means of Perfection and Salvation where he explains this concept in detail. This is what convinced me, and until the Church actually teaches definitively otherwise, I will agree with him.

Brother,

I haven’t read it either, I guess I should check it out. But, I never heard anyone say limbo was a bad place.

Do you think most people believe limbo involves suffering?

Why hasn’t the Church explained this more?

God Bless

 

[Genesis315]

Because most people have never read St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s Great Means of Perfection and Salvation where he explains this concept in detail. This is what convinced me, and until the Church actually teaches definitively otherwise, I will agree with him.

What is his conclusion on the topic of unbaptized infants?

 

[dylanschrader]

While we all acknowledge that there is no definitive teaching yet on this point, the Church does define that no one who dies in the state of original sin can receive the Beatific Vision and also that no one who dies without actual sin can suffer Hell.

I personally hope for the salvation of unbaptized children, and while it is not definitive teaching, I am a fan of the theory that at the point of death God miraculously grants full use of reason and will to children who are not baptized such that they can themselves desire baptism. I think it’s fitting that every person be able to exercise reason and will in actuality before death and not only in potentiality.

 

[Genesis315]

While we all acknowledge that there is no definitive teaching yet on this point, the Church does define that no one who dies in the state of original sin can receive the Beatific Vision and also that no one who dies without actual sin can suffer Hell.

I personally hope for the salvation of unbaptized children, and while it is not definitive teaching, I am a fan of the theory that at the point of death God miraculously grants full use of reason and will to children who are not baptized such that they can themselves desire baptism. I think it’s fitting that every person be able to exercise reason and will in actuality before death and not only in potentiality.

Yeah, I agree. I pray for the salvation of all who were unable to receive baptism in this life.

 

[Church_Militant]

Panel Backs Hopes for Unbaptized Infants Who Die
Pope OKs Publication of Report on Limbo

VATICAN CITY, APRIL 20, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI authorized the publication of a report that expresses the hope that babies who die without baptism are able to get to heaven.

The report by the International Theological Commission, published today, concluded that there are serious theological and liturgical grounds for the hope that such babies are saved and enjoy the beatific vision.

The commission says the theological hypothesis of “limbo” appeared to be based on an unduly restrictive view of salvation.

The 41-page document noted this is an “urgent pastoral problem,” especially because of the large number of unbaptized babies who die as victims of abortion.

The commission’s documents are not considered official expressions of the magisterium. But the commission does help the Holy See to examine important doctrinal issues.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church in No. 1261 explains: "As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them.

"Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism.

“All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.”

ZE07042008

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Brother,

I haven’t read it either, I guess I should check it out. But, I never heard anyone say limbo was a bad place.

Do you think most people believe limbo involves suffering?

Why hasn’t the Church explained this more?

God Bless

Maybe not suffering but separation.
Because God has not revealed it for some reason.

 

[Cari]

Just one more thing for my anti-Catholic MIL to say “proves” that the Church is false. She refuses to be educated on the difference between Tradition and tradition, and so to her, this just goes to show that you can’t trust us anyway.

Not quite sure why she cares, anyway, since she’s a firm opponent of infant baptism.

 

[Nullasalus]

I’m annoyed that this issue is being played up as ‘Oh the Catholic Church is being revisionist about unpopular beliefs!’ People don’t seem to know the difference between dogma, popular belief, and simple pastoral practices.

Then again, most people (Catholic’s included) basic knowledge of Catholicism is pretty abysmal in my experience. Ah well.