Limbo

[bilop]

I find nothing hopeful about limbo. Would any parent? (OK, I’m guessing you’ll say “yes” )

Really? What about parents whose children have abandoned the faith, and are living morally dissolute liefstyles?

I imagine a lot of them would sign on for “perfect natural happiness” for their children right now.

I think many objections to limbo are based on a false modern supposition that the vast majority of people go to heaven.

If 95% of all people go to heaven, then it seems unfair for the unbaptized children to be denied.

But, if we go back to the more traditional theology like Matthew 7

14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

or listen to the great Saints, like Therese of Lisieux, or Sister Faustina, or John Bosco, who saw sould falling into Hell in droves, “like snowflakes”, then we may think differently.

If 80-90% of people end up in Hell, then Limbo is very, very merciful and hopeful.

God Bless

 

[VociMike]

Really? What about parents whose children have abandoned the faith, and are living morally dissolute liefstyles?

I imagine a lot of them would sign on for “perfect natural happiness” for their children right now.

Where has it ever been taught that people who abandon the faith could end up in limbo?

The discussion, I thought it was plain, had to do with infants who die without baptism. Those are the parents I was speaking of.

 

[bilop]

Where has it ever been taught that people who abandon the faith could end up in limbo?

The discussion, I thought it was plain, had to do with infants who die without baptism. Those are the parents I was speaking of.

I’m saying, parents who are pretty sure their children are going, or have gone, to Hell b/c of their unrepentent sin, would fnd it very hopeful if they could believe those children were in limbo. They can’t go to limbo, obviously.

My point is, compared to heaven, limbo seems a bad deal, but compared to hell, it’s great.

So, our take on the whole issue may revolve on what we think the ultimate fate of most souls is. Maybe I’m a pessimist, but I look at the world today, even at “good people” and can’t help thinking most of us are going to Hell. I was on that road myself for 20 years. Only by the grace of God did I repent, and now I “work out my salvation with fear and trembling”.

God Bless

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

We can hope limbo will go away after the Final Judgment.

So all the babies in limbo go to heaven after the Final Judgement? Why not before?

I’ve been thinking about this a great deal, for my own reasons, and I believe that babies, who die before baptism are with Jesus. Jesus is loving and merciful. He also transcends space and time.

I had my 2 living babies baptized at an early age. They were unaware what was happening. Their father and I requested Baptism for them. My 2 babies who were miscarried, were not able to be baptised by normal means. But I desire Baptism for them, and I would have baptized them if possible.
God doesn’t see my desire? God, outside of space and time, is limited by my inability to baptize my babies physically? There is no doubt in my mind and heart that my babies are with God, and hopefully I will get to meet them one day.

Jesus called my babies home to Him. When their little innocent souls saw Jesus at their particular judgment, they didn’t feel the love and desire to be with Him?

 

[AlphaOmega]

So all the babies in limbo go to heaven after the Final Judgement? Why not before?

I’ve been thinking about this a great deal, for my own reasons, and I believe that babies, who die before baptism are with Jesus. Jesus is loving and merciful. He also transcends space and time.

I had my 2 living babies baptized at an early age. They were unaware what was happening. Their father and I requested Baptism for them. My 2 babies who were miscarried, were not able to be baptised by normal means. But I desire Baptism for them, and I would have baptized them if possible.
God doesn’t see my desire? God, outside of space and time, is limited by my inability to baptize my babies physically? There is no doubt in my mind and heart that my babies are with God, and hopefully I will get to meet them one day.

Jesus called my babies home to Him. When their little innocent souls saw Jesus at their particular judgment, they didn’t feel the love and desire to be with Him?

Because of Original Sin, it is impossible to witness the beatific vision of God without first having faith. Having faith requires assent of the will, and grace to be present.

Your babies may not have had actual sins, but they nevertheless had not their original sins remitted. As far as I know, they were not martyred. They did not have the desire, without first knowing faith.

They cannot love what the do not know. Knowing God could only be acheived through the divinely revealed faith. They cannot hope what they have not been able to attain. They cannot have faith without first being justified, either through extraordinary or ordinary means of baptism.

Because God is well-ordered and just, He does not overtly honor anything beyond their dignity. The status of the souls in limbo is not the same as those who have had the supernatural faith while living on earth. Therefore, the first order of things in the hierarchy is the salvation of the many among the elect.

I am speculating that at the Final Judgment, these poor and innocent souls will be given a chance to accept God or be separated from Him. I would hope this will be made possible for them. In the end, there are four last things-- Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.

I don’t see Limbo anywhere.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Your babies may not have had actual sins, but they nevertheless had not their original sins remitted. As far as I know, they were not martyred. They did not have the desire, without first knowing faith.

Then how could my born children have desire? ** I** desired Baptism for them, they were too small to have this desire. I desire baptism for my miscarried children. We all have particular judgement at the time of our death. When my babies had theirs they saw Jesus. Of course Jesus called out to them, of course they would see Jesus and desire to be with them. How can we limit what Jesus can do? Jesus doesn’t hear my prayers of anguish? If I could pray for the souls of purgatory, why not for the souls of my babies.

Moses was not baptized. Abraham was not baptized. Are they not in heaven?

MY BABIES ARE WITH GOD.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Then how could my born children have desire? ** I** desired Baptism for them, they were too small to have this desire. I desire baptism for my miscarried children. We all have particular judgement at the time of our death. When my babies had theirs they saw Jesus. Of course Jesus called out to them, of course they would see Jesus and desire to be with them. How can we limit what Jesus can do? Jesus doesn’t hear my prayers of anguish? If I could pray for the souls of purgatory, why not for the souls of my babies.

Moses was not baptized. Abraham was not baptized. Are they not in heaven?

MY BABIES ARE WITH GOD.

Of course they (born children) didn’t have the desire to begin with. You afforded them the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity by the admittance of your own faith and consent to have them baptized.

There are many things we can quote Jesus in the Scripture to show that He’s limitting Himself?

Ask Jesus why He commanded people to be converted and be baptized. Ask Jesus why He build the Church so that many people will be saved. Ask why there is a Hell if Jesus can do anything.

You may be their biological mother, but you cannot have spiritual communion with those who did not have the opportunity of faith. If biological transmittence is being inherited into the Kingdom of God, then there is no need of baptism and conversion of souls, which means that all children born of Catholic parents who desire and know their faith are impeccable and perfect, eternally destined for Heaven since the moment of conception. This leads to an assault on the singular privilege of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary… Just my theological take. It seems to be theological suicide to believe that these souls are somehow WITH GOD outside of ordinary means, even extraordinary (which is either baptism of desire or baptism of blood) through faith.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism

Does not say that babies who died without Baptism go someplace else.

Also, you claim that at Final Judgment God Limbo will go away.

Originally Posted by AlphaOmega
We can hope limbo will go away after the Final Judgment.

Why not at the Particular Judgement that we all have at the hour of our death? Why wouldn’t an unbaptized baby, standing before God not feel love for the Blessed Trinity?

Why do we believe in intercessory prayers for people at the moment of death? Even retroactively? Jesus called my children to him, He created them, no one prevented their Baptism through any action.

Also according to St. Faustina Jesus said, “I am Love and Mercy itself. When a soul approaches Me with trust, I fill it with such an abundance of graces, that it cannot contain them within itself, but radiates them to other souls”

I trust my Children are with God.

 

[honeysuckle]

I have never seen the great problem with this that other people see. We know that we are judged by the light we have been given. If an innocent child has never seen the light, then there is nothing to condemn them. Remember Jesus words to the Pharisees, who told them if they had been ignorant, they would be without sin, but because they said, “I see”, their sin remained. When children die, what is to prevent them from suddenly seeing Jesus, and in that moment their soul either responds or does not, just as if they were an adult? I personally doubt there are any children who when seeing Jesus would turn away.

 

[AlphaOmega]

“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim. 4:3–4)

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Cardinal Cajetan, in the sixteenth century, remarked in his commentary on the Summa Theologica (III:68:11), “that children still within the womb of their mother are able to be saved . . . through the sacrament of baptism that is received, not in reality, but in the desire of the parents.” In our own times, Cardinal Ratzinger echoed Cajetan in a 1985 interview with Vittorio Messori. “One should not hesitate to give up the idea of ‘limbo’ if need be,” the future pontiff advised. “[A]nd it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed ‘limbo’ also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer” (The Ratzinger Report 147-8).

]

Although limbo has long been the prevailing theory, some theologians have imagined ways in which God may provide for the salvation of unbaptized infants. St. Gregory of Nyssa, in the fourth century, called the fate of these souls “something much greater than the human mind can grasp” and found solace in the fact that “the One who has done everything well, with wisdom, is able to bring good out of evil” (qtd. in HS 12).

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0710fea4.asp

My ears aren’t itchy…the then Cardinal Ratzinger is immensly more intelligent and holy than myself, and I trust him.

AlphaOmega, I’m not sure if you know how miscarriage works, but in my case during the process of my children’s death, I prayed to Jesus to accept their souls, I prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Is that good enough for you? I never stated that my children were conceived without original sin, I believe that their sin was removed through Baptism of Desire.

Itchy ears…not at all. Just trust in God.

 

[AlphaOmega]

AlphaOmega, I’m not sure if you know how miscarriage works

enlighten me…

…but in my case during the process of my children’s death, I prayed to Jesus to accept their souls, I prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Is that good enough for you? I never stated that my children were conceived without original sin, I believe that their sin was removed through Baptism of Desire.

Itchy ears…not at all. Just trust in God

I do not exclude the idea that Baptism of Desire could be attached between a mother and an unborn child. But, you made it sound like you were speaking for everyone for every circumstance. One would really need to investigate and understand HOW you made that desire…

But, nevertheless, the reality of Limbo does not take away the possibility for their salvation.

God bless!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

enlighten me…

Do you really want to know? For me the process of miscarriage started the babies were likely still alive. At some point they died, and were passed. It wasn’t that they were alive, they died, and I found out later. I had hours to spend with them knowing that they were dying, speaking to doctors about my pregnancy hormone levels. And in prayer, to Jesus to accept my babies’ souls. I couldn’t physically baptize them if they were within my body. But my prayers and my earnest desire must count for something.

The same way prayers for someone who possibly died in mortal sin must count. Should I stop praying for the dead?

do not exclude the idea that Baptism of Desire could be attached between a mother and an unborn child. But, you made it sound like you were speaking for everyone for every circumstance. One would really need to investigate and understand HOW you made that desire…

It seems like you did

You may be their biological mother, but you cannot have spiritual communion with those who did not have the opportunity of faith. If biological transmittence is being inherited into the Kingdom of God, then there is no need of baptism and conversion of souls, which means that all children born of Catholic parents who desire and know their faith are impeccable and perfect, eternally destined for Heaven since the moment of conception

maybe I misunderstood, but it seems that way. Besides, I do believe in Baptism, that’s why my children were Baptised. And please re-read the quote by the then Cardinal Ratzinger. It makes great sense.

Besides, I pray everyday for Jesus to protect and save the unborn. I mean my prayers. Jesus is the one who protects and saves. Not me.

 

[AlphaOmega]

The case would need to be so extraordinary that desire of baptism is effected. Unfortunately, it is true that NOT every parent can make a perfect act of faith, hope, and charity for their unborn children who never had actual form of water baptism to begin with… Yet, even as it may be true with your case (if indeed you DESIRED and PRAYED **before **their actual deaths), it does not give proof for other circumstances. For example, aborted babies are likely to end up with a different fate from those belonging to Catholic parents who made the firm desire of baptism and prayer before the end of their unborn babies. Furthermore, the unbaptized children who have not reached the age of reason are carelessly prolonged without sufficient knowledge of the sacrament of baptism, but have not had actual sins, is logical to presume they will end up in Limbo.

Baptism of Desire should not be taken out of context. A person cannot confer the baptism of desire for a person of non-relations? I can only reason why parents are able to pray for the children is through a certain fundamental right belonging to them.

Limbo is not everlasting torment. It is rather just in the mercy of God. It cannot be taken away, even for those who are not part of the visible Catholic Church must end up somewhere prior to the Final Judgment before all else permitted as part of justice.

Do you really want to know? For me the process of miscarriage started the babies were likely still alive. At some point they died, and were passed. It wasn’t that they were alive, they died, and I found out later. I had hours to spend with them knowing that they were dying, speaking to doctors about my pregnancy hormone levels. And in prayer, to Jesus to accept my babies’ souls. I couldn’t physically baptize them if they were within my body. But my prayers and my earnest desire must count for something.

The same way prayers for someone who possibly died in mortal sin must count. Should I stop praying for the dead?

It seems like you did

maybe I misunderstood, but it seems that way. Besides, I do believe in Baptism, that’s why my children were Baptised. And please re-read the quote by the then Cardinal Ratzinger. It makes great sense.

Besides, I pray everyday for Jesus to protect and save the unborn. I mean my prayers. Jesus is the one who protects and saves. Not me.