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sidbrown
Guest
Man desires to be with God forever. I don’t see how anyone can be happy in hell.
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spn82756
Guest
Limbo is not a part of hell. Not in Catholic doctrine.
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pnewton
Guest
I know this is off-topic, but to help keep the mood light and the conversation friendly, I am the only one that hums Limbo Rock everytime I see this thread?
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spn82756
Guest
Limbo lower now…how low can you go?
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pnewton
Guest
In the current discussion that has another meaning.Limbo lower now…how low can you go?
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Javl
Guest
I do not believe in Limbo. I cannot visualize a Just and Merciful God creating an infant soul and then denying it to be in His presence because it died before it could be baptized. I can’t see God’s Justice demanding such a price.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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sidbrown
Guest
Really?
" St. Augustine and the African Fathers believed that unbaptized infants share in the common positive misery of the damned, and the very most that St. Augustine concedes is that their punishment is the mildest of all…"
" St. Anselm was at one with St. Augustine in holding that unbaptized children share in the positive sufferings of the damned…"
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
Pope St. Zosimus, The Council of Carthage, Canon on Sin and Grace, 417 A.D.- “It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: ‘In my Father’s house there are many mansions’ [John 14:2]: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema.”
Pope Gregory X, Council of Lyons II, 1274: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.”
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una_fides
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Where did you find this quote?? Do you have an online source possibly?? Thanks!
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una_fides
Guest
Actually limbo means “edge.” It is on the edge of hell. It is technically in hell, as there cannot be a third place. There can only be heaven and hell, and we know that the souls that depart in original sin only descend into hell, so limbo must be in hell. It is the “edge” of the highest level where there is no pain or suffering from the flames. It is a place of perfect natural happiness. People that have problems with limbo would also have problems with hell.
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Shin
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That’s like saying, ‘I do not believe in God, I cannot visualize a Just and Merciful God creating an infant that is murdered, mutilated, and mistreated by its parents, aborted by doctors and its own mother’s choice. I can’t see God creating such a place.’I do not believe in Limbo. I cannot visualize a Just and Merciful God creating an infant soul and then denying it to be in His presence because it died before it could be baptized. I can’t see God’s Justice demanding such a price.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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surritter
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This post would have helped me a few pages ago… So technically, these unbaptized babies are in hell, you say. But wait – in hell, there is a possibility of perfect happiness. Does this really comply with Catholic doctrine?
Therefore, I have a problem with limbo, and you’re right – the way you define hell, I have a problem with hell too. I hold to the Catholic view that hell is a place (state) of misery, simply because of the fact that it is by definition eternal separation from God, who is the very definition of happiness.
This notion of “natural” happiness doesn’t make sense because all happiness must come directly from God, unless we now wish to parse the definition of happiness.
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Benadam
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This post got me thinking.I think children fall under the “all humans” category, so yes.
Jesus most certainly bids the little children to come to him, and we know he saves them and unites them to himself through baptism.
There is no human state of developement that Jesus didn’t enter into. Including those who after conception didn’t attach to the uterine wall and miscarried. It seems to me God’s human life is fruitfull at all stages of developement. Not saying all are saved who died without the opportunity of Baptism but that all who would, are not outside the possibility of choosing God and consequently the desire for Baptism…
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una_fides
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Good point. First we must understand that there are two punishments in hell as the Church teaches. The first and primary punishment is the deprivation from the beatific vision of God in heaven, aka pain of loss. For infants that die without baptism, they never had the capacity to know God. If someone never had the capacity to know God, how could they suffer from loosing something they never knew existed? These souls would not gain some perfect or complete knowledge after death but would stay in their ignorant state and in such a state would not suffer from the pain of loss.
The second punishment is the fires of hell, for which souls only suffer for committing actual sins. Since unbaptized infants never commit any actual sins, they would not suffer any of the fires in hell. Therefore, there must be some other place, and this place must also be in hell but it would have to be a part of hell on its outskirts or edge where souls did not suffer. This same place would be the same where the OT just went after death before the coming of Christ when he opened the gates of heaven. This state is known as the limbo of the fathers, a place of perfect natural happiness that is not heaven but also is not in the pits of hell but is rather on the outer edge of hell. Hope this helps see how it fits in with Catholic theology. Hell is a place of fire, etc, but there are degrees of punishments. It would make sense that at its highest level, such a place would exist, as a just and merciful God would require such a place’s existence, since the same God has revealed that souls cannot enter heaven without being born again through baptism.
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una_fides
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We are not judged on our potential. Our choices are most often shaped by outside influences. Nevertheless, we still retain free will and choice, though our will is affected from without. Hence, any given child could have ended up in heaven or hell depending on unfathomable potentials that could shape him either way. If God were to use such a method, we have no revelation whatsoever to support such a notion, and we have revelation that seems to indicate otherwise.
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surritter
Guest
I can understand that there are two punishments in hell, but where do you get the idea that they can be isolated to separate corners of the same realm? This sounds like a theological work-around to justify the concept of limbo, which has never been definitively taught by our Church.
Furthermore, you write that “For infants that die without baptism, they never had the capacity to know God.” This is not true: God made us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him in this life in order to be happy with Him in the next life. Babies – because they are human persons – have the capacity to know God. Perhaps you are thinking of actual mental cognizance of a superior being, but this is not a requirement for heaven. If so, then realize that even baptized babies lack the capacity to know God in this active sense, yet they can enter into heaven and realize the full joy. So I see this point as irrelevant to the discussion.
Regardless, I suppose we should stick to the discussion of limbo as being true or not, rather than what “edge” of the final states in resides in. Sorry if I knocked things off track.
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Benadam
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Just to clarify. I’m not considering choice founded on potentialities but on the presentation of God in a state like those who lacked the opportunity to choose. In this case children who died unbaptised. Following the theology of Christ’s decent after His death. The dead were able to choose because of the presentation of God in a state like their own.
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Javl
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If you notice I did not say how it would die. Please don’t misconstrue what I have said. Thank you.That’s like saying, ‘I do not believe in God, I cannot visualize a Just and Merciful God creating an infant that is murdered, mutilated, and mistreated by its parents, aborted by doctors and its own mother’s choice. I can’t see God creating such a place.’
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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pnewton
Guest
We are not. However, we do not know how God will judge in extraordinary situations.
When Jesus said that he who does not believe is condemned already, we understand that he is not talking about infants. We baptize infants who do not believe and trust in their salvation. Why? Because we understand such statements, and others used by Fundamentalist to deny infant baptisim, to address specifically those who can believe.
Likewise, we must consider in all statements the universe, or subject, that is being addressed. Our will is fixed at death. Does this mean that the will of unbaptized infants are fixed at death? If so, since they have never made any choices, then they are born without free will. Yet we do not deny they have a human soul. Thus in Limbo, we have humans with no free will?
There is no answer, Limbo or no, that does not raise more questions. No solution set forth is free of challenges and contradictions. I like to think that it is with good cause that the Church has never defined the state of the afterlife for unbaptized infants. It may be that on this side of heaven we are not capable of conceiving of Gods plan.
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LoyalViews
Guest
I found this very interesting explanation in the Baltimore Catechism of 1891
It seems the the Baltimore Catechism seems to preach Limbo… It says that it is a place not for the damned, but it is a place where the “souls of the just” were waiting for him.
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surritter
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But since Christ opened the gates to Heaven, wouldn’t that “hell” go away? Or does it remain in place for unbaptized babies? Are those unbaptized babies then considered “the just”?
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