Limbo

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palmas85 said:
I see that you have omitted Purgatory from your list. Is there a reason for such an omission or just a slip up of some sort?
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No slip-up. Purgatory is not forever. Those souls in purgatory will go to heaven, so I suppose you could say that it is included in that item on the list.
 
Lamafacaja said:
Yes, there is a Limbo. It’s Traditional Church doctrine since apostolic times.
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Well… no it isn’t. If it’s not Church doctrine right now it’s impossible for it to have been Church doctrine since the apostolic times…
International Theological Comission: "The hope of salvation for infacnts who die without being baptised":
Source: Vatican.va

…

It is clear that the traditional teaching on this topic has concentrated on the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis. However, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), the theory of limbo is not mentioned. Rather, the Catechism teaches that infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God, as is shown in the specific funeral rite for such children. The principle that God desires the salvation of all people gives rise to the hope that there is a path to salvation for infants who die without baptism (cf. CCC, 1261), and therefore also to the theological desire to find a coherent and logical connection between the diverse affirmations of the Catholic faith: the universal salvific will of God; the unicity of the mediation of Christ; the necessity of baptism for salvation; the universal action of grace in relation to the sacraments; the link between original sin and the deprivation of the beatific vision; the creation of man “in Christ”.

…
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1st edit: Wow I just realized I waited too long to answer to that email… there were quite a few new posts after my first unread post… please excuse me being a little late… I will start reading right away…

2nd edit: Well somebody quoted it before I did… but it’s worth repeating.
simple_soul said:
The document is a long read but it is well worth it.
This is the link vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
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I’ll note the sermon calls it doctrine, and that the ITC has no authoritative weight it is an advisory commission. Which the sermon linked above goes into. 🙂 Am I repeating myself? Yes.

Remember all those theologians who advised Pope Paul VI to drop opposition to contraception?

Here are some quotes, some from the sermon, so spoilers so to speak, but there are more… many many more there. Seriously* listen to the sermon.*

‘Whoever says that infants are alive in Christ even when they depart this life without being baptized is really both opposing the Apostolic preaching and condemning the whole Church which runs hastily with infants to the baptismal font because it is believed without any doubt that otherwise these infants cannot possibly be alive in Christ.’

‘If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants carried off by death before being baptized can obtain the remission of original sin.’

St. Augustine, Father, Bishop, Doctor of the Church

The newly born child receives supernatural life through baptism. In the present economy of grace there is no other way to communicate that life to a child who has not obtained the use of reason. Above all the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death, without it salvation and supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God, are impossible.

Pope Pius XII, 1951

The Church has shown by her teaching and practice that she knows of no other way apart from baptism for insuring children’s entry into eternal happiness.

Instructions on Infant Baptism, 1980, Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Q. Where do infants go who die without baptism?
A. Infants who die without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy the sight of God but also do not suffer, this is because having original sin and this alone they do not merit Heaven but neither do they merit Purgatory or Hell.

Catechism of Christian Doctrine

‘The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life without even the grace of baptism is utterly foolish.’

Pope St. Innocent I

It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished.

St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Father, Bishop, Doctor of the Church
 
“Limbo has never been a definitive truth of the faith,” Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who became pope last year, said during a 1984 interview with The New York Times. “Personally, I would let it drop, since it has always been only a theological hypothesis.”

Source

What you get when you google “never been a definitive truth of the faith”

Well not even the pope believes it to be an absolute truth… Why would anybody believe that it is outside of God’s power to welcome a child into heaven that was not baptized?
 
Folks, this is really simple – mainly because the Church has never come down definitively on either side as of yet. Read this quote in post #102 very carefully, and you’ll see that it is not at all what those of us who are suspicious of limbo are saying: “Whoever says that infants are alive in Christ even when they depart this life without being baptized is really both opposing the Apostolic preaching and condemning the whole Church which runs hastily with infants to the baptismal font because it is believed without any doubt that otherwise these infants cannot possibly be alive in Christ.”

But those of us who are suspicious of limbo are NOT making absolute statements that these infants are alive in Christ even without baptism.

We are saying that God MAY have His own way to extend grace to them – perhaps only some of them; we do not know.

So don’t jump all over us when we question limbo, as if we are making statements that those babies are definitely saved. We are simply saying that God MAY operate outside the sacraments if he wishes to. Unfortunately, many on this thread wish to deny Him that power.
 
Well, that’s an interesting quote…

And so we have to ask… that personal opinion, expressed non-authoritatively… Or what? Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
 
No one denies the possibility of miracles before death. 🙂

But it is clear there is no tradition that these are considered a norm or relied upon so.

After death, the Council of Florence has spoken.

I’ve heard of priests who have encouraged prayers for infants in such dangers… I would also encourage people to -baptize-… as a more… regular solution…
 
I’ll have to correct what I said above, my apologies, I said the sermon called limbo doctrine – that was incorrect listening to it again as far as I can tell, it seems I misheard/misrecalled – it is said that *it is doctrine that those who die in original sin are deprived of the beatific vision. *

The term itself, ‘limbo’ is not used.

Though of course… If you don’t use what the current definition of limbo is… the alternative is Hell.
 
Shin said:
Well, that’s an interesting quote…

And so we have to ask… that personal opinion, expressed non-authoritatively… Or what? Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
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*Dear Shin,

I have to ask, what do you mean by “personal opinion, expressed non-authoritatively?”
 
PAboy57 said:
Wow. Some very great posts by so many. This subject is a gut wrencher to say the least. Part of me wants to say God wouldn’t do that to a baby but then that takes away the power of baptism.

Jesus says it, St. Thomas says it, Popes say it. I have to say it is as they say. If at some point God wants to change His mind so be it. For now – get your children baptised.

Thanks for all the great info and quotes. A deep learning experience.
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*Dear PAboy,

If you believe there are great posts in this thread you might also want to check out the thread titled “Can the Church change it’s teaching?”

This same subject is being discussed there that I believe will make the deep learning experience even deeper.*
 
If we are to consider the words of Christ. He always spoke of a dichotomy of choices: heaven or hell, sheep or goats, wheat or tares. While this is nothing but evidence (not proof) of two locations, it is notable that the idea of Limbo was never mentioned by Christ, Paul or even John in his Revelation.
 
pnewton said:
If we are to consider the words of Christ. He always spoke of a dichotomy of choices: heaven or hell, sheep or goats, wheat or tares. While this is nothing but evidence (not proof) of two locations, it is notable that the idea of Limbo was never mentioned by Christ, Paul or even John in his Revelation.
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Neither mentioned were Purgatory, the Holy Trinity, the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Concepcion and other assorted dogma and doctrines of the Catholic faith. Yet they are no less valid just because they are not mentioned.
 
palmas85 said:
Neither mentioned were Purgatory, the Holy Trinity, the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Concepcion and other assorted dogma and doctrines of the Catholic faith. Yet they are no less valid just because they are not mentioned.
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You are correct about the Assupmtion of Mary (which hadn’t happened yet at the time Jesus taught). The other three are taught in the Bible, but not given a name. I just said it was evidence (and factual), not proof of anything. It is just something to bear in mind, like the words of St. Thomas and the logic behind the idea of Limbo is something to bear in mind.

There is on more difference, that of substantial importance between Limbo and these other four items. These things you mentioned are dogmas, infallibly defined Truth. Limbo is not.
 
una_fides said:
Because the Church has defined that once the soul leaves the body, there’s no more chances given and the soul’s eternal destiny has been set at the moment of death. That’s why we ask our Lady to pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
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All right; however, a very young child would not “have the chance.” So, could not it be different for children(remember Christ’s saying about them inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven)?
 
simple_soul said:
*Dear Shin,

I have to ask, what do you mean by “personal opinion, expressed non-authoritatively?”
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Everything that proceeds from the Church or its members has its own authoritative weight… a Cardinal expressing a personal opinion is not an authoritative statement and is different from a Cardinal releasing an official document… a Pope can express non-authoritative opinions, just as a man… or authoritative documents… or infallible statements…

🙂
 
Shin said:
Everything that proceeds from the Church or its members has its own authoritative weight… a Cardinal expressing a personal opinion is not an authoritative statement and is different from a Cardinal releasing an official document…
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Like the gentleman giving the sermon in your link above.
Shin said:
… a Pope can express non-authoritative opinions, just as a man… or authoritative documents… or infallible statements…
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I could be wrong but this is beginning to make me question your trust or faith in the fact that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit and that He will guide it’s leaders … and that you have more insight and guidance from the Holy Spirit than our Church leaders do…is this what you are trying to tell us? Do you have more insight and guidance from the Holy Spirit than our church leaders do?
 
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