Limbo

[surritter]

Incorrect.

I have not excluded the possibility of miraculous last minute baptisms for anyone.

I challenge anyone to find me a tradition saying that one should rely upon these however, or stating they generally occur.

So you do believe that God can intervene on behalf of unbaptized babies?

Or does your first sentence here refer to a human doing an emergency baptism? (If that’s the case, then it’s irrelevant to the discussion, because they are then baptized babies; we are talking about unbaptized babies who die.)

 

[Shin]

Certainly, it is possible. I never denied it once.

I’ve never actually read of a miraculous infant baptism, I must however admit. It is not as if it is not out there, but it certainly is not something I have ever read yet. And I think if someone viewing this thread had read about it we might’ve heard about it from them too, or would soon… anyone? Anyone?

As I noted earlier, the Lord Himself said they do not go to Heaven. He did not say He miraculously saves them at the last instant.

But still, perhaps if someone prayed well enough, the miracle might occur for some particular child before death.

 

[spn82756]

Incorrect.

I have not excluded the possibility of miraculous last minute baptisms for anyone.

I challenge anyone to find me a tradition saying that one should rely upon these however, or stating they generally occur.

I don’t think that anyone has implied that. What JPII said was that we can have hope that God has a way to bring them to the Beatific Vision. That’s what many of these posters are trying say. And…If it can happen once…then by the grace of God it can happen as often as we can imagine. The church does not and has not EVER taught definitively that limbo of the infants exists…no matter what you believe. Check the Catholic Encyclopedia with CAF. You will find the same thing. Theologians have speculated that it exists. Theologians have believed that it exists…but it is not part of church dogma or doctrine. If it were…then as I said earlier…JPII can never be a saint. But rather a heretic by suggesting that all parents of unbaptized babies should not give up hope. Now you can twist all this to mean what ever you want…but fact is fact. Limbo of the infants is not definitively taught in the CC. You can believe it doesn’t exist and be in full communion with Rome. That is not the same as not believing the Immaculate Conception or Purgatory. A Catholic must believe those.

 

[spn82756]

BTW…I voted with JPII…I don’t know.

 

[Shin]

. If it were…then as I said earlier…JPII can never be a saint.

Pardon me, but the topic of JPII’s sanctity is not one that can be discussed on C.A. Forums, except positively. Otherwise it is forbidden. You might not have noticed but this is the case.

So there is nothing to be said.

 

[Shin]

Here’s an interesting article that addresses the general problem of worship of the present and collective amnesia as a method of Faith.

 

[spn82756]

Pardon me, but the topic of JPII’s sanctity is not one that can be discussed on C.A. Forums, except positively. Otherwise it is forbidden. You might not have noticed but this is the case.

So there is nothing to be said.

I apologize…I was trying to point out that he believed in the possibility of unbaptized babies going to heaven. I happen to believe JPII is a saint and will be cannonized. I really should make that clear.

And I don’t think we’ll ever see a miraculous baptism. God will just do it. He doesn’t have to make it visible to us.

 

[surritter]

Shin–
How could we hear about a miraculous “baptism” done solely by the hand of God at the last microsecond of life?


But it is possible. Thus, limbo is not an automatic requirement of the faith, as Una Fides seemed to imply many posts ago.

 

[Shin]

I apologize…I was trying to point out that he believed in the possibility of unbaptized babies going to heaven. I happen to believe JPII is a saint and will be cannonized. I really should make that clear.

And I don’t think we’ll ever see a miraculous baptism. God will just do it. He doesn’t have to make it visible to us.

Yes, obviously you do.

But I will not let you cause trouble for me. I am part Polish you know, and once had the highest hopes for him. He caused me instead, terrible grief. One dreams of the Pope doing good things – that never occur.

Words are just words in the end.

And if I might point to one of the quotes of St. Siricius … Being Pope is a great responsibility, with high standards.

I happen to love our Church very much.

 

[Shin]

Shin–
How could we hear about a miraculous “baptism” done solely by the hand of God at the last microsecond of life?

Last microsecond? It need not be then. Let’s not be so technical. However…

Simply thus: The saints would testify to it. I would read it somewhere in the life of one of them.

I have read of saints miraculously traveling places to baptize people themselves, physically. . . Pointing out the great necessity of baptism, I might add.

Of course there is so much I have not read, and I cannot read Latin and pull out the works of the Bollandists so what can I say to it? But that I have not yet heard of a case, and look forwards to hearing about any indicators about how it might occur.

 

[Shin]

Forums differ than blogs. They often go in circles and that is allowable, as people come and go.

For me, I readily admit and concede that the majority of the Saints, Doctors and Popes of the Church believed that Limbo existed and that Limbo was the solution to the dilemna of unbaptized infants. It does not answer all the questions, but one should be slow to hold a minority opinion against this majority of the dead. Yet for me, I can not do otherwise. Unless the Church defines this dogma or something new comes to light, I do not believe Limbo exists, at least as it has been defined by most adherents.

Well…

Pray for me please, I will pray for you too.

 

[LoyalViews]

Now I am going to proceed… I also suggest to newcomers to the thread, if you cannot drag yourself away, to start at the beginning so you do not rehash old ground.

Cardinal Cajetan (1469-1534) espoused the theory that infants could reach heaven because of the faith of their parents,* but Pope St. Pius V had the passage removed from Cajetan’s works. *

"By reason of my tender love, I even show mercy to the infants of pagans.

If any of them die before reaching the age of discretion, given that they cannot come to know me face to face, they go instead to a place that it is not permitted for you to know but where they will live without suffering. Those who have advanced from the one road reach those two roads, that is, the age of discretion between good and evil. It is then in their power to choose what pleases them most. Their reward will follow the inclination of their will, since by that time they know how to read the sign written at the crossroads telling them that it is better to experience a little pain at the start and joy ready and waiting for them than experience joy at the start and pain at the end."

The Lord Jesus Christ, to St. Bridget of Sweden (1303 – 1373 A.D.)

Among others who denied the existence of limbo were the Jansenists, whose theory of selective predestination excluded the need for any mediatorial source of grace, including baptism. They were condemned by Pope Pius VI as teaching something “false, rash and injurious to Catholic education,” because they claimed that it was a Pelagian fable to hold that there is a place “which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo of children,” for the souls of those who depart this life with the sole guilt of original sin (Denzinger 2626). Pope Pius XII declared that “an act of love can suffice for an adult to acquire sanctifying grace and supply for the lack of baptism; to the unborn or newly born infant this way is not open” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, XLIII, 84).

The great majority of theologians, approved by the Church, teach that infants who die in original sin suffer no “pain of sense.” They are simply excluded from the beatific vision. Do they grieve because of heaven? St. Thomas Aquinas answers that they do not, because pain of punishment is proportioned to personal guilt, which does not exist here. Rather, “They rejoice because they share in God’s goodness and in many natural perfections” (De Malo, V, 3). It is believed that infants in limbo know and love God intensely by the use of their natural powers, and the enjoy full natural happiness.

Fr. John Hardon’s ‘Modern Catholic Dictionary’ (1980)

I agree completely. Although babies will not reach beatic vision, they will not suffer completely in limbo. If babies are in limbo, then they aren’t in hell, and aren’t suffering.

 

[una_fides]

I agree completely. Although babies will not reach beatic vision, they will not suffer completely in limbo. If babies are in limbo, then they aren’t in hell, and aren’t suffering.

Glad you are in agreement on the existence of limbo and that unbaptized cannot reach the beatific vision. Just to clarify on limbo, technically it’s on the edge of hell, so it’s location is hell, though the souls there are in a perfect state of natural happiness and bliss without any suffering unlike we have continually on earth.

 

[Benadam]

Hold on. Saying these babies will not reach the beatific vision Doesn’t really jive with the official Church position.

“We don’t know " We entrust them to the Mercy of God”

 

[una_fides]

Hold on. Saying these babies will not reach the beatific vision Doesn’t really jive with the official Church position.

“We don’t know " We entrust them to the Mercy of God”

Actually it jives quite well with the Catholic Church’s position for 2000 years. The Church has always taught that without baptism these infants cannot be saved. Only recently has she said that it could be possible in some unknown way that they could be. I side with unchanging and constant tradition of the Church. You cannot find anywhere in Catholic teaching that has been handed down where the Church has ever taught that they could be saved. The only ones to ever teach that were excommunicated as heretics (Pelagians).

 

[Benadam]

Actually it jives quite well with the Catholic Church’s position for 2000 years. The Church has always taught that without baptism these infants cannot be saved. Only recently has she said that it could be possible in some unknown way that they could be. I side with unchanging and constant tradition of the Church. You cannot find anywhere in Catholic teaching that has been handed down where the Church has ever taught that they could be saved. The only ones to ever teach that were excommunicated as heretics (Pelagians).

Then you disagree with the Church’s teaching that it doesn’t know what happens to babies that die without baptizm?

 

[surritter]

Last microsecond? It need not be then. Let’s not be so technical. However…

Simply thus: The saints would testify to it. I would read it somewhere in the life of one of them.

I have read of saints miraculously traveling places to baptize people themselves, physically. . . Pointing out the great necessity of baptism, I might add.

Of course there is so much I have not read, and I cannot read Latin and pull out the works of the Bollandists so what can I say to it? But that I have not yet heard of a case, and look forwards to hearing about any indicators about how it might occur.

I think you still misunderstand what I meant. Catholics believe that our religion is one of revelation, and we do not know with absolute certainty everything about how God operates, other than those things which have been infallibly defined.

So why must you expect some first-hand testimony from a saint about God’s saving grace being extended in certain cases? I mentioned the last microsecond to illustrate to you that even when all human intervention – even baptism – has been neglected, there MAY be a way that God can grant sanctifying grace in an extrabaptismal manner. We don’t know this, but neither is God required to share that knowledge with us.

Yet I just can’t get you to admit that this is possible, eh?

 

[una_fides]

Then you disagree with the Church’s teaching that it doesn’t know what happens to babies that die without baptizm?

I could agree that “we don’t know what happens” exactly in the sense that we don’t know if they will suffer or not. St. Augustine taught that they do suffer, but Aquinas taught they do not. I would say that I personally believe that they can not attain the beatific vision since that has been constant Church teaching for 2000 years.

 

[Benadam]

I could agree that “we don’t know what happens” exactly in the sense that we don’t know if they will suffer or not. But I would say that I personally believe that they can not attain the beatific vision since that has been constant Church teaching for 2000 years.

It’s been the Church’s best guess. For the good of the laity and the world it was also good to teach it as worthy of belief so that the necessity of Baptism wasn’t compromised in the popular mind. It was never compromised in the mind of theologians who understood that it’s the current state of the art of the science of theology. The church’s official position has always been “we don’t know”. Or else Limbo wouldn’t be a theory.

 

[una_fides]

It’s been the Church’s best guess. For the good of the laity and the world it was also good to teach it as worthy of belief so that the necessity of Baptism wasn’t compromised in the popular mind. It was never compromised in the mind of theologians who understood that it’s the current state of the art of the science of theology. The church’s official position has always been “we don’t know”. Or else Limbo wouldn’t be a theory.

Actually Limbo wasn’t just a “theory.” It was the positive teaching of the Church for centuries. Furthermore, the question as to the state of unbaptized infants has not been in the realm of theory in the sense of heaven and hell, only punishment or not punishment. I am tempted to re-post all the Church teachings that have already been cited in this thread, but I will just recommend that you read back through the beginning of the thread when Shin so kindly posted them. Here is one that demonstrates the mind of the Church and which all Catholics must hold as a matter of faith:

           "The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments (Council of Florence)."

The Church has always taught that unbaptized infants die in a state of original sin. It is only in very recent years, when the Church has become infected with modernism that modern theologians have began speculating that unbaptized infants could somehow be cleansed from original sin. Many of the same theologians are ones who speculate that all souls will be saved (universalism), which was itself condemned as heresy.