Limbo

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lance
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
sacremental baptism or no, everyone gets to choose whether this side of eternity or elsewhere it seems to me.
 
40.png
Scholastic:
Limbo is not just a theological speculation, it’s a theological certitude. It’s existence is not formally proposed for believing by the church, but the necessity of the existence of limbo is known from other teachings of the church. The church defined from the council of florence and of trent that no one who is unbaptized can enter into heaven. If you deny limbo, it implies the denial of this church teaching.
First, let get something straight. What the original poster referring to Limbo is Limbus Infantium. The Limbo that is acknowledge by the Church is Limbus Patronum. This is where all of the saved people before Christ wait to enter Heaven. Heaven was opened only after Christ ascension.

In Limbus Patronum, all of the inhabitant WILL GO to Heaven. They just have to wait for Christ.

But in Limbus Infantium, the unbaptized baby will NEVER enter Heaven. They will not suffer the suffering of Hell but they would not acquire Beatific Vision.
 
40.png
Trad_Catholic:
There is no Baptism availing to salvation except water Baptism. Often St. Thomas is misquoted when he says that Baptism of Blood is the best Baptism. He presupposes a water Baptism, if you read his writings on water Baptism. What he means by that statement is that those who are martyred for the Faith partake in the best way the Christian life, that is, are most Christ-like, as they, too, were martyred as He Himself was.

“Baptism” of blood and “baptism” of desire are NOT Baptisms DEFINED by the Church to avail one to salvation. It is a complete break with Sacred Tradition to state otherwise, even if many modern Popes have said just that. Vat. II was not infallible, as Paul VI and John XXIII both said. It was merely pastoral and formed no new doctrine, hence, it was not infallible, as discipline is not infallible. Also, the new catechism is far from infallible. It, in fact, has MANY errors, some of which have been corrected recently by the Pope.
Firstly, you are incorrect. Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire is an ancient teachings. As ancient as Tertulian (blood), Ambrose (desire), Augustine (desire and blood), Cyprian (blood) etc.

Secondly, V2 has two dogmatic constitution. Altough Paul VI said that the Council did not invoke the ExtraOrdinary Magisterium the council DID invoke Ordinary Magisterium, thus saying that all V2 is not infallible is rather incorrect.
 
40.png
Scholastic:
I don’t want to be fussy, but I don’t think that’s exactly true. Otherwise, the holy innocents would not be listed among those who were baptized by blood by St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas et al.
Hmmm . . . good point . . . I was thinking about the requirements for martyrdom, which are that the person be put to death, that the person doing the killing be motivated by a hatred of the faith or of the teachings of the Church, and that the person killed choose between death and renunciation of the faith.

I’ll have to think about my definition a bit more, and do more study of the Church’s teacings . . . :hmmm:

Thanks!
 
40.png
beng:
First, let get something straight. What the original poster referring to Limbo is Limbus Infantium. The Limbo that is acknowledge by the Church is Limbus Patronum. This is where all of the saved people before Christ wait to enter Heaven. Heaven was opened only after Christ ascension.

In Limbus Patronum, all of the inhabitant WILL GO to Heaven. They just have to wait for Christ.

But in Limbus Infantium, the unbaptized baby will NEVER enter Heaven. They will not suffer the suffering of Hell but they would not acquire Beatific Vision.
Thanks for this clarification! Do you have any sources that we could go to for further reading on this distinction? Is Limbus Patronum what the Old Testament scriptures refer to as Sheol?
 
40.png
Arrowood:
Thanks for this clarification! Do you have any sources that we could go to for further reading on this distinction? Is Limbus Patronum what the Old Testament scriptures refer to as Sheol?
Sheol just means “below” which represents two places: Limbus Patronum and Gehanna. Gehanna is where punishment is. After Christ’s ascension, Limbus Patronum ceased to exist.

More info —> “Hell” from NewAdvent
 
So those who died without water baptism (with the stain of original sin and personal venial sin) prior to 30 AD (or there about) go to Heaven, and those infants (with the stain of original sin only) who died without a valid water baptism after that first Easter Vigil remain in Limbo* (limbus parvulorum)?
 
40.png
ralphinal:
Your aunt-in-law is wrong. An atheist or heretic can baptise if the proper formula and matter (water) is used and there is even the slightest understanding of what the church intends. Your daughter is in heaven and watching over you now. You have a direct line to heaven.
Has anybody thought about the nurse? According to what I learned in my first theology class (many many years ago), the nurse also has a direct line to heaven. In the words of the priest giving the class (to a nurse who had baptised a baby just prior to its death) “That baby owes you big time.”

Meaning, of course, that the nurse’s baptism of the baby gave him the chance to enter into heaven.

John
 
It seems that there are two excesses going on in this thread. One excess says that man can only reach salvation through a baptism of water, and that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are not efficient. The other excess says that man can reach heaven without baptism of water, blood, or desire. So they deny the existence of limbo and deny the necessity of baptism. Obviously, there are babies who have not recieved the baptism of water, blood, or desire. Therefore, it is a necessity, in order to maintain our faith in the necessity of baptism, to believe in a limbus puerorum. The church has expressly posited the existence of limbo. In 1321 Pope John XXII in his letter “Nequaquam sine dolore” said “(The Roman Church) teaches that those souls, who depart in a state of mortal sin, or with original sin alone descend to hell: yet their places of punishment and punishments are different.” The souls in limbo are “punished” with the absence of the beatific vision, yet they do not “suffer” from this punishment, because they never tried to achieve the beatific vision.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top