M
mirus
Guest
sacremental baptism or no, everyone gets to choose whether this side of eternity or elsewhere it seems to me.
First, let get something straight. What the original poster referring to Limbo is Limbus Infantium. The Limbo that is acknowledge by the Church is Limbus Patronum. This is where all of the saved people before Christ wait to enter Heaven. Heaven was opened only after Christ ascension.Limbo is not just a theological speculation, it’s a theological certitude. It’s existence is not formally proposed for believing by the church, but the necessity of the existence of limbo is known from other teachings of the church. The church defined from the council of florence and of trent that no one who is unbaptized can enter into heaven. If you deny limbo, it implies the denial of this church teaching.
Firstly, you are incorrect. Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire is an ancient teachings. As ancient as Tertulian (blood), Ambrose (desire), Augustine (desire and blood), Cyprian (blood) etc.There is no Baptism availing to salvation except water Baptism. Often St. Thomas is misquoted when he says that Baptism of Blood is the best Baptism. He presupposes a water Baptism, if you read his writings on water Baptism. What he means by that statement is that those who are martyred for the Faith partake in the best way the Christian life, that is, are most Christ-like, as they, too, were martyred as He Himself was.
“Baptism” of blood and “baptism” of desire are NOT Baptisms DEFINED by the Church to avail one to salvation. It is a complete break with Sacred Tradition to state otherwise, even if many modern Popes have said just that. Vat. II was not infallible, as Paul VI and John XXIII both said. It was merely pastoral and formed no new doctrine, hence, it was not infallible, as discipline is not infallible. Also, the new catechism is far from infallible. It, in fact, has MANY errors, some of which have been corrected recently by the Pope.
Hmmm . . . good point . . . I was thinking about the requirements for martyrdom, which are that the person be put to death, that the person doing the killing be motivated by a hatred of the faith or of the teachings of the Church, and that the person killed choose between death and renunciation of the faith.I don’t want to be fussy, but I don’t think that’s exactly true. Otherwise, the holy innocents would not be listed among those who were baptized by blood by St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas et al.
Thanks for this clarification! Do you have any sources that we could go to for further reading on this distinction? Is Limbus Patronum what the Old Testament scriptures refer to as Sheol?First, let get something straight. What the original poster referring to Limbo is Limbus Infantium. The Limbo that is acknowledge by the Church is Limbus Patronum. This is where all of the saved people before Christ wait to enter Heaven. Heaven was opened only after Christ ascension.
In Limbus Patronum, all of the inhabitant WILL GO to Heaven. They just have to wait for Christ.
But in Limbus Infantium, the unbaptized baby will NEVER enter Heaven. They will not suffer the suffering of Hell but they would not acquire Beatific Vision.
Sheol just means “below” which represents two places: Limbus Patronum and Gehanna. Gehanna is where punishment is. After Christ’s ascension, Limbus Patronum ceased to exist.Thanks for this clarification! Do you have any sources that we could go to for further reading on this distinction? Is Limbus Patronum what the Old Testament scriptures refer to as Sheol?
Has anybody thought about the nurse? According to what I learned in my first theology class (many many years ago), the nurse also has a direct line to heaven. In the words of the priest giving the class (to a nurse who had baptised a baby just prior to its death) “That baby owes you big time.”Your aunt-in-law is wrong. An atheist or heretic can baptise if the proper formula and matter (water) is used and there is even the slightest understanding of what the church intends. Your daughter is in heaven and watching over you now. You have a direct line to heaven.