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dominikus28
Guest
What exactly is limbo? How do you get there?
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thistle
Guest
The answer is you don’t. There is no Limbo.
There is Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell.
Do a search as there are currently several threads running on Limbo.
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El_camino
Guest
Well, not quite.
- Purgatory has not even been defined as a place. Some say it is rather a process, or a “purging or purifying fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15)
- If purgatory is not a place, then TODAY there is only HEAVEN and HELL and nothing else.
- Before Christ died, there was, however, a third place, known as Sheoul (in hebrew) or Hades (in greek). This is the place where the righteous patriarchs of the Old testament, such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc. waited patiently for Christ to redeem them so that the gates of heaven would open. That is why the Apostle’s Creed says that Christ “descended into hades”, where he went and preached the Gospel to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19). After Adam and Eve sinned the gates of heaven were closed and did not open until Christ died for us. This basically shows that EVERYONE needed to be redeemed by Christ, even the Patriarchs of Old Testament and no one comes to the Father if it not by Christ and He is the ONLY mediator between God and Men.
Catholic theologians have talked about TWO limbos:
- Limbus infantium… Or the limbo of infants, where some theologians concluded unbaptized infants would go. Such limbo has never been accepted as an official teaching by the CHURCH and lately Church officials are tending towards establishing that such place has never existed. I personally believe that such place does not exist or has even existed.
- The second limbo is called Limbus Patrium… Or the Limbo of the Patriarchs and this is THE VERY same place talked about above in item 3. The Sheoul or Hades was a LIMBO for the patriarchs because they could not enter heaven, and they were NOT in HELL, thus they were in between two places (i.e., between earth from which they had departed and Heaven where they would enter after Christ died for them).
Many blessings,
E.C.
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Genesis315
Guest
Yes and no. Limbo is Hell in that there is no beatific vision, but there is also no punishent–it is natural happiness.
In regards to the OP, theoretically one would go to “limbo” if they perished in original sin, but with no actual sin. The current debate raging is whether infants who dies without baptism go there. The answer to that question is simple: if God grants them sanctifying grace before death they go to heaven, if He does not, they go to “limbo.” The fact is, we do not know which He does and there is good reason supporting both positions.
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El_camino
Guest
We much clarify, however, that what Genesis has written here is a theological position which the Church has never held officially. Some theologians, including St. Augustine, came up with the idea of a Limbo for the unbaptized, but such theology is not clearly stated neither in Scripture nor in Sacred Tradition.
Blessings,
E.C.
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Spirithound
Guest
While it is true that the Catechism does not actually say that Purgatory is a place, I believe it is, simply because while we are undergoing the process of purgation, we have to be somewhere. We know that nothing unclean will get into Heaven, so the purgation does not happen there, and Hell is inescapable and is punitive, and so there is no purgation there.
I am toying with the idea that the Limbo of the Fathers does still exist, but it’s simply empty, and nobody goes there. I’m also wondering whether the Limbo of the infants could be the same place as the Limbo of the Fathers, since the requirements to go there are essentially the same, ie, be under original sin, but not actual sin.
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El_camino
Guest
You are free to believe that Purgatory is a place, as the Church has not given any final pronoucement on that regard. However, I have to say, that just because a process must occur, it does not have to occur in a place that bears the same name as the process. For instance, if I have to wash my hair (i.e., a process) I don’t have to do it in a place called “wash my hair”, I can do it in the bathroom, kitchen, backyard, etc…
Secondly, as you know when we die, before we enter heaven or go to hell, a process known as “the judgement” must take place… Where does this process take place then? at a place called “judgement”?
Thirdly, if you believe that when you die your soul leaves your body and ascends upwards towards heaven, based on the fact that the Church has not even said or defined that Purgatory takes time (it could occur in the twinkling of an eye for all we know), it is possible that purgatory might occur as we are ascending and not in a particular place. And this could be true even if we ascend in the twinkling of an eye.
Fourthly, IF you read 1 Cor 3:10-15, which I believe talks about Purgatory, it refers to it as a “purifying fire” which takes place right after the judgement, and for what it would seem to suggest that it occurs in the same place where the judgment occurs.
You are also free to believe that, as no final pronouncement has been given by the church on that regard and this idea of yours, although it lacks quite of bit of theological ground, there isn’t, on the other hand, theological ground to oppose it either. So I could personally consider such idea, but to me it would be just that, an idea, a not a belief.
Blessings,
E.C.
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Spirithound
Guest
You’re really splitting hairs here. I did use the words “purgation” and “Purgatory”, which are both derived from the same word, however use the appropriate derivational morphology to indicate their parts of speech. I would not call the place where the judgement occurs “the judgement”, I would call it “the judgement room”.
The words that we use for things are completely arbitrary. For example, there is nothing about a tree that inherently necessitates the use of T-R-E-E to denote it. Similarly, “Purgatory” is the name we’ve given to the place (as I contend) where the process of purgation occurs. That doesn’t mean that “Purgatory” is posted over the door.
I will concede that your third point is quite valid, and a good one that I hadn’t considered
For point four, it could very well be that the judgement room doubles as purgatory, or it could be like some countries where you get your trial and then are taken out back to be executed…depends on the length of time denoted by “right after”…
Does my idea lack theological ground just because there isn’t any authoritative theological ground there, or is there a more specific reason?
Thanks for your response!
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El_camino
Guest
I can’t argue with you on that. All that you say is possible.
Same as above. It is possible
Because of the first reason you mention. Nowhere in Scripture or Sacred Tradition the idea you mention is clearly expressed, but by the same token, nowhere in Scripture or Sacred Tradition such idea is denied.
Blessings,
E.C.
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