Linda Hirshman "Get to Work: A Manifesto for Women and the World""
- Status
too funny.
B
Bobby_Jim
Guest
Funny thing about this… if both of a child’s parents work outside the home, and the child ends up in a paid day care setting, or with a nanny, or what have you, almost every time, the primary care giver is still a woman. It’s a matter of outsourcing the job.
Are the women who choose a career in (paid) child care somehow greater than moms who stay home with their own kids? Does the act of receiving money for your labor grant it a greater dignity or level of importance? Or I wonder if a career in child care is not worthy of the author’s respect. How about a job in retail, or housekeeping, or food service, or many other things that women do to pay the bills and make ends meet.
For the majority of adults, men and women, “career” does not equal wearing a nice suit to work, and flying around the country, and meeting with clients on important projects, and giving powerpoint presentations and all that stuff. Regardless of how intellectually stimulating it is, it all has an inherent dignity, and can be a means of sanctification (this is a theme of St. Josemaria Escriva). But even for the majority of those in “high-powered” careers, you are basically a wage-slave. Your time is not your own, and your compensation is a mere pittance in comparison to what your corporate masters are earning. I guess the lesson is that human relationships (like with your own kids) are very valuable. Either that, or try to become one of the corporate masters yourself…
Are the women who choose a career in (paid) child care somehow greater than moms who stay home with their own kids? Does the act of receiving money for your labor grant it a greater dignity or level of importance? Or I wonder if a career in child care is not worthy of the author’s respect. How about a job in retail, or housekeeping, or food service, or many other things that women do to pay the bills and make ends meet.
For the majority of adults, men and women, “career” does not equal wearing a nice suit to work, and flying around the country, and meeting with clients on important projects, and giving powerpoint presentations and all that stuff. Regardless of how intellectually stimulating it is, it all has an inherent dignity, and can be a means of sanctification (this is a theme of St. Josemaria Escriva). But even for the majority of those in “high-powered” careers, you are basically a wage-slave. Your time is not your own, and your compensation is a mere pittance in comparison to what your corporate masters are earning. I guess the lesson is that human relationships (like with your own kids) are very valuable. Either that, or try to become one of the corporate masters yourself…
M
marci
Guest
S
Sandi
Guest
Well and thoughtfully said.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, though it has been awhile, I have to laugh at the idea of that decade or so of ‘caring for young children’ being considered “time off”.
Time off from what???
*Real *work? What is more real than the full time 24/7 awesome responsibility of raising children?
That time spent by me as a SAHM was by no means ‘time off’. It was time on.
N
nova147
Guest
**You’ve commented that in writing this book you did something akin to “wandering into ground zero of the mommy wars.” What did you say exactly that caused all hell to break out? **
I said that just because you choose to stay at home doesn’t make it right, and that you have to examine the decision for its worthiness up against some kind of standard other than what St. Paul told the Ephesians. And if you’re going to put it up against the standards that don’t involve talking to God, if you’re going to evaluate it according the standards for human behavior, that it’s going to be found lacking.
This was the part that got me going. (Ok, I was upset before this, but this was the kicker.) I’m sorry Ms. Hirshman, but I consider standards of human behavior to come from God, not Plato or Arisotle. Forgive me for basing my life choices on something bigger than “your society”.
MJ
I said that just because you choose to stay at home doesn’t make it right, and that you have to examine the decision for its worthiness up against some kind of standard other than what St. Paul told the Ephesians. And if you’re going to put it up against the standards that don’t involve talking to God, if you’re going to evaluate it according the standards for human behavior, that it’s going to be found lacking.
This was the part that got me going. (Ok, I was upset before this, but this was the kicker.) I’m sorry Ms. Hirshman, but I consider standards of human behavior to come from God, not Plato or Arisotle. Forgive me for basing my life choices on something bigger than “your society”.
MJ
O
OldAgeGuru
Guest
Ugh I hate when people corrupt the basic values of feminism. It makes women feel bad about wanting equality because they don’t want to be associated with these loons.
I’m so frustrated with every one getting painted as one extreme or the other. THERE ARE SHADES OF GRAY PEOPLE! Not every democrat is a baby murdering drug smoking hippie, and not every republican is a gun toting rich snob. Women aren’t burning their bras and manhating feminists nor are they meek women who have no aspirations of their own other than to perfect the pot roast recipe and please their husbands. GRRRR
The whole point of feminism was to give women options other than staying at home even when they didn’t have children. To let them have careers if they so desired, or to stay home and raise children if thats what they wanted.
I get so frustrated when people act like getting paid for work you do is so silly when your a woman. While I don’t know if I would “send a paycheck” to a SAHM, I certainly would say they deserve a tax write off, and they should have money being put into social security. And if someone wants to work? Well then don’t villify them.
The media paint everyone into a corner and then pit us against each other. Thats why working moms/women who have chosen a career over family feel defensive when SAHM talk about how wonderful their lives with their children are, and SAHM’s feel defensive about their choices when working mom’s talk about their choices.
But what do I know? I have ovaries.
I’m so frustrated with every one getting painted as one extreme or the other. THERE ARE SHADES OF GRAY PEOPLE! Not every democrat is a baby murdering drug smoking hippie, and not every republican is a gun toting rich snob. Women aren’t burning their bras and manhating feminists nor are they meek women who have no aspirations of their own other than to perfect the pot roast recipe and please their husbands. GRRRR
The whole point of feminism was to give women options other than staying at home even when they didn’t have children. To let them have careers if they so desired, or to stay home and raise children if thats what they wanted.
I get so frustrated when people act like getting paid for work you do is so silly when your a woman. While I don’t know if I would “send a paycheck” to a SAHM, I certainly would say they deserve a tax write off, and they should have money being put into social security. And if someone wants to work? Well then don’t villify them.
The media paint everyone into a corner and then pit us against each other. Thats why working moms/women who have chosen a career over family feel defensive when SAHM talk about how wonderful their lives with their children are, and SAHM’s feel defensive about their choices when working mom’s talk about their choices.
But what do I know? I have ovaries.
F
fix
Guest
From the interview with the author:
I would like her to define good, harm, and truth.
J
JimmyV
Guest
Didn’t G.K. Chesterton say something to the affect that sometime around the 1880s women finally believed the men’s lie: that the public house is really, really, really, more important than the private house. Yes, ladies, see how important my work outside the home is, you to can join us men. Now we even have “Take Our Daughters To Work Day,” so we can show the little ones how important work is. I think it would be better for our moms and daughters if corporations sponsored “Take Our Daughters To Spa Day.”
L
lotusblossom
Guest
What really gets me about this interview is that this woman sincerely thinks that all SAHMs are deceiving themselves or lying to convince themselves. Give me a break! What she says this whole time sounds like she is trying to convince herself that what she is doing is the better way.
I, myself, have no problem with women who work, unless of course they have children who they spend little to no time with and their income is unnecessary and all they do is spend it on childcare and buying material things that are not needs. However, as a working woman (until our baby comes), in my department (I’m an accountant), at least half are women and most of these women are either 1. single with no children or 2. single mothers who have to work. There are only a handful of us who are 1. married with no children or 2. married with children.
I agree with previous posters who mentioned that feminism advocated for “choice” when in all reality what they meant to say was “my way or no way.” We have the freedom to choose now, so why not let us make our choices and leave us be? Always pressing their agenda (as my dad likes to quote Michael Savage - “Liberalism is a mental disorder!”
) We are raising future generations of people who will one day be in that workforce and we need to raise them with good morals and values that they can’t pick up from a TV, video game, or even a daycare center. The example of their parents is necessary for them to make wise choices and ethical decisions once they are adults. When I was a teenager, working the typical jobs (I’ve had my share of different types too), I noticed that most of my peers had poor work ethics - most of them did not have parents who were involved in their lives, regardless of whether or not the parents worked or not. To say SAHMs are a harm to society is a lie. Period. It’s so opposite, I’d say it’s laughable, except unfortunately many people soak it in and preach this nonsense. Like GK Chesterton has said - Motherhood is the only job that is irreplacable (and fatherhood too!). 
I, myself, have no problem with women who work, unless of course they have children who they spend little to no time with and their income is unnecessary and all they do is spend it on childcare and buying material things that are not needs. However, as a working woman (until our baby comes), in my department (I’m an accountant), at least half are women and most of these women are either 1. single with no children or 2. single mothers who have to work. There are only a handful of us who are 1. married with no children or 2. married with children.
I agree with previous posters who mentioned that feminism advocated for “choice” when in all reality what they meant to say was “my way or no way.” We have the freedom to choose now, so why not let us make our choices and leave us be? Always pressing their agenda (as my dad likes to quote Michael Savage - “Liberalism is a mental disorder!”
) We are raising future generations of people who will one day be in that workforce and we need to raise them with good morals and values that they can’t pick up from a TV, video game, or even a daycare center. The example of their parents is necessary for them to make wise choices and ethical decisions once they are adults. When I was a teenager, working the typical jobs (I’ve had my share of different types too), I noticed that most of my peers had poor work ethics - most of them did not have parents who were involved in their lives, regardless of whether or not the parents worked or not. To say SAHMs are a harm to society is a lie. Period. It’s so opposite, I’d say it’s laughable, except unfortunately many people soak it in and preach this nonsense. Like GK Chesterton has said - Motherhood is the only job that is irreplacable (and fatherhood too!).
R
rachelsusanne
Guest
i know this is a few months late…but this is a reply to Hirshman that i couldnt resist sharing. …i had better get back to eating my bon-bons and watching my soaps now . LOL
**RE: SAHM
I just came across your “manifesto” (nice term by the way) about how mother’s who make the CHOICE to stay at home with their precious children are basically LAZY AND STUPID! I am extremely insulted. For your information right now I work FULL time, I have for the last twenty years. I got married when I was 30, had a beautiful daughter when I was 33. The absolute WORST day of my life was the day I went back to work and had to hand her over to an absolute STRANGER to raise! I felt like my heart was ripped out of my chest. Are you a mother??? Do you even understand the bioligical NEED to be with your child???
And before you get on some high horse, let me also inform you I am a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT! So how dare you try to judge me and others like me and say we are not working??? I plan to quit my job in two months time and be at home with my daughter for AS LONG AS SHE NEEDS ME! I did not bring her in to this world to be raised by someone else. It is my RESPONSIBILITY to shape and mold her and make sure she grows up to be anyone she wants to be and yes, madam, that includes a stay at home mom!
Like I said I am a liberal democrat, I believe in women’s rights, that means I believe it is my RIGHT and my and my husband’s CHOICE for me to be a homemaker. And where the hell do you get off thinking that is not a HARD job??? Do you have any idea all the things a homemaker does?? And don’t sit there and tell me that a person who works full time does all this stuff too. They do not, I know from experience when you work full time you have no FREAKIN’ TIME to do ANYTHING at home except pick up now and then and feed your family tv dinners and SHORTCHANGE the most important people in your life for what??? To put more money into some
fat cat’s pocket.
Sorry honey, you do not speak for this liberated woman so shut your mouth. No one can tell me that being a homemaker is not THE most important job in the universe because it is. I am raising the FUTURE and whether you like it or not, it will be little girls like my own, with good old fashioned values that will be taking over once bitter old feminazi’s like you leave the planet. So deal with it!
**
**RE: SAHM
I just came across your “manifesto” (nice term by the way) about how mother’s who make the CHOICE to stay at home with their precious children are basically LAZY AND STUPID! I am extremely insulted. For your information right now I work FULL time, I have for the last twenty years. I got married when I was 30, had a beautiful daughter when I was 33. The absolute WORST day of my life was the day I went back to work and had to hand her over to an absolute STRANGER to raise! I felt like my heart was ripped out of my chest. Are you a mother??? Do you even understand the bioligical NEED to be with your child???
And before you get on some high horse, let me also inform you I am a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT! So how dare you try to judge me and others like me and say we are not working??? I plan to quit my job in two months time and be at home with my daughter for AS LONG AS SHE NEEDS ME! I did not bring her in to this world to be raised by someone else. It is my RESPONSIBILITY to shape and mold her and make sure she grows up to be anyone she wants to be and yes, madam, that includes a stay at home mom!
Like I said I am a liberal democrat, I believe in women’s rights, that means I believe it is my RIGHT and my and my husband’s CHOICE for me to be a homemaker. And where the hell do you get off thinking that is not a HARD job??? Do you have any idea all the things a homemaker does?? And don’t sit there and tell me that a person who works full time does all this stuff too. They do not, I know from experience when you work full time you have no FREAKIN’ TIME to do ANYTHING at home except pick up now and then and feed your family tv dinners and SHORTCHANGE the most important people in your life for what??? To put more money into some
fat cat’s pocket.Sorry honey, you do not speak for this liberated woman so shut your mouth. No one can tell me that being a homemaker is not THE most important job in the universe because it is. I am raising the FUTURE and whether you like it or not, it will be little girls like my own, with good old fashioned values that will be taking over once bitter old feminazi’s like you leave the planet. So deal with it!
**
K
KCT
Guest
The woman has a bone to pick with someone.
I wonder how she sees daycare and the profession of nannies. Should they be paid a living wage? Get a paid vacation? Paid sick days? (makes me wonder if she had kids and who raised them) —KCT
I wonder how she sees daycare and the profession of nannies. Should they be paid a living wage? Get a paid vacation? Paid sick days? (makes me wonder if she had kids and who raised them) —KCT
S
sanctamaria17
Guest
That’s terrible. This kind of thing makes me angry.
I intend to be a doctor so I’ll be working most of my life, including if/when I have children. However, I’ll probably work part time when my kids are still young so that I can be with them. But I have no bones to pick with SAHM’s. I think what they’re doing is wonderful and I loved it when my mother started staying home with me and my siblings.
I agree, feminism is about choice. I consider myself a feminist and I’m prolife, Catholic, and conservative about morals and sexuality. It’s not about hating men, wanting to be the same as men, or burning bras. The women who believe that this is what feminist constitutes are bitter, whiny, and insecure about their own femininity.
I intend to be a doctor so I’ll be working most of my life, including if/when I have children. However, I’ll probably work part time when my kids are still young so that I can be with them. But I have no bones to pick with SAHM’s. I think what they’re doing is wonderful and I loved it when my mother started staying home with me and my siblings.
I agree, feminism is about choice. I consider myself a feminist and I’m prolife, Catholic, and conservative about morals and sexuality. It’s not about hating men, wanting to be the same as men, or burning bras. The women who believe that this is what feminist constitutes are bitter, whiny, and insecure about their own femininity.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
BRAVA! Excellent post!!!
R
rachelsusanne
Guest
well said!
S
sanctamaria17
Guest
Mille grazie Honestly, I go to a liberal campus and I hear girls from my Catholic women’s group complain about that all the time (One was told she’s wasting her time for getting her Master’s if she wants to stay at home w/her kids!!!) I’m used to hearing both things, “Why do you even want kids?” and “Why won’t you stay at home? You get to play with kids all day!” I just tell them it’s my choice, I’m not offending God or harming anyone or myself so stay out of it.
Besides, wouldn’t it be good if moms went to college? Then they could pass their love of learning onto their kids. At least, that’s what I would think. Not that everyone needs a college degree, but just because a mom stays at home doesn’t mean she can’t be educated!!! What happened to knowledge for the sake of knowledge, of culture, etc? Why does it have to mean a high-paying job? I’m pre-med but my major isn’t hard sciences. It’s Spanish/Latin American Studies with a minor in Biochemistry (that’s the premed part) because I love to learn and I’d be learning about a language and culture I adore. I have to take classes in everything, art, literature, economics, government, politics, history, Spanish (for the major), and calculus, physics, chemistry, and biology (for the minor/premed portion). Even if I don’t go onto medical school, if I don’t end up having a career and am a stay at home mom or a nun or w/e, it doesn’t mean it’s all useless. I have complete faith that God will use the knowledge and skills I gained for His purpose.
Honestly, I go to a liberal campus and I hear girls from my Catholic women’s group complain about that all the time (One was told she’s wasting her time for getting her Master’s if she wants to stay at home w/her kids!!!) I’m used to hearing both things, “Why do you even want kids?” and “Why won’t you stay at home? You get to play with kids all day!” I just tell them it’s my choice, I’m not offending God or harming anyone or myself so stay out of it.Besides, wouldn’t it be good if moms went to college? Then they could pass their love of learning onto their kids. At least, that’s what I would think. Not that everyone needs a college degree, but just because a mom stays at home doesn’t mean she can’t be educated!!! What happened to knowledge for the sake of knowledge, of culture, etc? Why does it have to mean a high-paying job? I’m pre-med but my major isn’t hard sciences. It’s Spanish/Latin American Studies with a minor in Biochemistry (that’s the premed part) because I love to learn and I’d be learning about a language and culture I adore. I have to take classes in everything, art, literature, economics, government, politics, history, Spanish (for the major), and calculus, physics, chemistry, and biology (for the minor/premed portion). Even if I don’t go onto medical school, if I don’t end up having a career and am a stay at home mom or a nun or w/e, it doesn’t mean it’s all useless. I have complete faith that God will use the knowledge and skills I gained for His purpose.
B
byers
Guest
Feminism came from communism. Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinam etc, the big inventors and promoters of this were members of the communist party in their day. The idea was to break up the family and get those mothers away from their children, and put an end to large families.
In the 50’s and even 60’s americans used to feel sorry for all the women in russia who had to put their children in state care while they swept streets or did whatever work they could find. In western europe however subsidies were given to mothers so that they could stay home with their children. The family and family life was valued. All of this of course has or is changing.
Much of the problem today is economics making it almost impossible for many young mothers to stay home with their children. It wasn’t always like this in america.
In the 50’s and even 60’s americans used to feel sorry for all the women in russia who had to put their children in state care while they swept streets or did whatever work they could find. In western europe however subsidies were given to mothers so that they could stay home with their children. The family and family life was valued. All of this of course has or is changing.
Much of the problem today is economics making it almost impossible for many young mothers to stay home with their children. It wasn’t always like this in america.
R
rachelsusanne
Guest
too add, one thing i am also a bit sick of hearing is that all SAH moms must be upper class or rich, and are lucky to have the “choice”.
while i know that there are single mothers and people who truly do not have a choice in the matter, the majority of married couples who both work do so to support the lifestyle they refuse to modify. i see it in most of my friends who are the same age as my husband and myself.
we are far from rich–barely even middle class. my husband is a corrections officer and i am a former waitress. we dont even have money for christmas presents this year, and we are getting by paycheck to paycheck. we are trying to get out of our past debt, cut up the credit card, are trying to stash savings for a rainy day, and well forget about owning a home anytime soon. we live in a tiny apartment but i try my best to make it homey and just be happy.
i guess my point is, most SAHMs give up a lot of other comforts to be the ones raising their kids.
while i know that there are single mothers and people who truly do not have a choice in the matter, the majority of married couples who both work do so to support the lifestyle they refuse to modify. i see it in most of my friends who are the same age as my husband and myself.
we are far from rich–barely even middle class. my husband is a corrections officer and i am a former waitress. we dont even have money for christmas presents this year, and we are getting by paycheck to paycheck. we are trying to get out of our past debt, cut up the credit card, are trying to stash savings for a rainy day, and well forget about owning a home anytime soon. we live in a tiny apartment but i try my best to make it homey and just be happy.
i guess my point is, most SAHMs give up a lot of other comforts to be the ones raising their kids.
- Status